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So the situation was:

a SM capt was in with a tac squad and at the beginning of the movement phase, the owning player declares that he is seperating the captain from the squad. They are in terrain so naturally roll for it.

The capt gets a double 1 so don't move very far at all.

The squad moves some 4' but the last member is still 1' from the captain.

Are the squad and captain seperate now or are they stuck together since you couldn't move them more than 1' apart?
(i.e. if I rapid fire with the squad, can I still charge with the captain?)


As an aside, what if I had the captain one inch from any squad but did not want to join them yet could not move anywhere else due to terrain features? Do I just not get to move him?

It doesn't matter what you declare, an IC has not left the unit until he moves it of coherency with it. If his movement isn't enough to get out of coherency, then he stays with the unit. If he moves out of coherency and the unit then forms up around him, then they are separate units and he doesn't join then (as you only measure to see if an IC has joined a unit at the end of hs own movement, not that of the unit).

sudojoe wrote:
The capt gets a double 1 so don't move very far at all.

The squad moves some 4' but the last member is still 1' from the captain.

At the start of the movement phase they were one unit. All models in the unit will have the same maximum movement. So you would make one roll for terrain to see how far the unit+captain may move. The captain may then move off on his own using that distance, and the remaining unit may then move in another direction using that same distance.

Cheexsta wrote:It doesn't matter what you declare, an IC has not left the unit until he moves it of coherency with it. If his movement isn't enough to get out of coherency, then he stays with the unit. If he moves out of coherency and the unit then forms up around him, then they are separate units and he doesn't join then (as you only measure to see if an IC has joined a unit at the end of hs own movement, not that of the unit).

That's mostly right, but there is also a check at the end of the movement phase (not just his), so if a character does not intend (or cannot) join a unit he MUST be 2" away. Moving the squad too close would be breaking this rule, so they must keep their distance.

Edit: in the event of a character leaving succesfully, his old squad can't then group up around him.

grendel083 wrote:

Cheexsta wrote:It doesn't matter what you declare, an IC has not left the unit until he moves it of coherency with it. If his movement isn't enough to get out of coherency, then he stays with the unit. If he moves out of coherency and the unit then forms up around him, then they are separate units and he doesn't join then (as you only measure to see if an IC has joined a unit at the end of hs own movement, not that of the unit).

That's mostly right, but there is also a check at the end of the movement phase (not just his), so if a character does not intend (or cannot) join a unit he MUST be 2" away. Moving the squad too close would be breaking this rule, so they must keep their distance.

Edit: in the event of a character leaving succesfully, his old squad can't then group up around him.

Right, I had forgotten that he and his former unit still move at the same time, so they'd have to end >2" from each other to be considered separate.

But you could move another unit around the IC if you want, but they wouldn't be joined.

Cheexsta wrote:But you could move another unit around the IC if you want, but they wouldn't be joined.

If there are two units within 2" at the end of the movement phase, you have to declare which unit the IC is joining.

It doesn't matter who moved first. You don't count the IC as joined the moment he stops moving. He joins a unit he is within 2" of at the end of the phase.

If I'm reading it right, the character MUST join a unit if within 2"?
The only way to not join is to stay more than 2" away?

Guess that would be a yes? kind of silly that you can't stand within 2' of the guy. What? He got smelly socks or something?

insaniak wrote:

Cheexsta wrote:But you could move another unit around the IC if you want, but they wouldn't be joined.

If there are two units within 2" at the end of the movement phase, you have to declare which unit the IC is joining.

It doesn't matter who moved first. You don't count the IC as joined the moment he stops moving. He joins a unit he is within 2" of at the end of the phase.

Right, misread that again. I'm on a roll today...

Also the Captain would roll 3d6 as he is an independent character, just putting that out there.

Grimnarsmate wrote:Also the Captain would roll 3d6 as he is an independent character, just putting that out there.

Not on the turn he tries to leave the unit. While he is with the unit, he loses MtC unless the unit also has it.. He only regains it after he has left the unit... which doesn't happen until after his movement.

WHile that is correct RAW, it is quite common to play that the IC regains those rules as he moves away, and can also use items such as jump packs, bikes etc.

nosferatu1001 wrote:WHile that is correct RAW, it is quite common to play that the IC regains those rules as he moves away, and can also use items such as jump packs, bikes etc.

wait, I'm confused, so I thought that the IC won't get back his abilities as an IC till he successfully detatches from the squad. So he can still use his ability to move further i.e. as Jumptroop if he had it to leave but won't get to roll for difficult the same way?

I'm getting kind of lost now.

sudojoe wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:WHile that is correct RAW, it is quite common to play that the IC regains those rules as he moves away, and can also use items such as jump packs, bikes etc.

wait, I'm confused, so I thought that the IC won't get back his abilities as an IC till he successfully detatches from the squad. So he can still use his ability to move further i.e. as Jumptroop if he had it to leave but won't get to roll for difficult the same way?

I'm getting kind of lost now.

The IC doesn't until he leaves the units. By RAW if an IC has a jump pack (but the squad doesn't) he's still restricted to the squads speed until he leaves it. Not everyone plays it that way though...

grendel083 wrote:

sudojoe wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:WHile that is correct RAW, it is quite common to play that the IC regains those rules as he moves away, and can also use items such as jump packs, bikes etc.

wait, I'm confused, so I thought that the IC won't get back his abilities as an IC till he successfully detatches from the squad. So he can still use his ability to move further i.e. as Jumptroop if he had it to leave but won't get to roll for difficult the same way?

I'm getting kind of lost now.

The IC doesn't until he leaves the units. By RAW if an IC has a jump pack (but the squad doesn't) he's still restricted to the squads speed until he leaves it. Not everyone plays it that way though...

How is this played in major tournaments? Or does it even vary there depending on the TO?

I've never seen it played that the leaving IC is restricted by the unit type of his former unit. The RAW is typically thrown out in favor of the more intuitive alternative.

It does make sense that an IC with a jumppack would simply jump away to leave a squad, and many people play it that way. But technically he's still part of the unit until he leaves the unit.

Personaly I'm not opposed if an opponent wants to do it that way, as long as it's not abused. I have seen an IC jump to the front of a large unit with the 'intention' of leaving (followed by "Oh no, he's still within 2" and part of the unit, whoops") just in time for an assault. He was promptly told to put the character back...

nosferatu1001 wrote:WHile that is correct RAW, it is quite common to play that the IC regains those rules as he moves away, and can also use items such as jump packs, bikes etc.

The side effect of not playing the RAW on this is that if you have an IC with jump pack or bike, you can extend the charge threat of a foot unit by a couple inches. Unless you house rule the house rule.

kmdl1066 wrote:The side effect of not playing the RAW on this is that if you have an IC with jump pack or bike, you can extend the charge threat of a foot unit by a couple inches. Unless you house rule the house rule.

How does that work?

Jump pack IC with unit of foot. IC declares he is leaving the unit and moves 8" forward. So far so good. They''re clearly two units being moved interdependently. Later in the movement phase the foot unit moves forward 6". End of the movement phase the IC is within 2" of a unit (the foot unit) and so must join the unit. IC declares a charge against an enemy that is within charge range of the IC but out of charge range of the foot. Lucky thing they're one unit now, right?

So you have to house rule the house rule to say that if the IC does move off from the unit using the jump pack, the unit cannot then trundle up to within 2" of the IC.

I think when we start to house rule the house rule something catastrophic happens and the world divides by zero resulting in subatomic compaction of the space time continuium...

kmdl1066 wrote:Jump pack IC with unit of foot. IC declares he is leaving the unit and moves 8" forward. So far so good. They''re clearly two units being moved interdependently. Later in the movement phase the foot unit moves forward 6". End of the movement phase the IC is within 2" of a unit (the foot unit) and so must join the unit. IC declares a charge against an enemy that is within charge range of the IC but out of charge range of the foot. Lucky thing they're one unit now, right?

So you have to house rule the house rule to say that if the IC does move off from the unit using the jump pack, the unit cannot then trundle up to within 2" of the IC.

Of course, we could always get back into the debate on whether or not the unit can leave/join the IC (barring transports oc). Which means, if the IC is the one that has to do the leaving/joining, then it would technically be impossible, for an IC to leave and re-join the same unit in this manner. As it is, I would really prefer not to open up that can of raveners again.

grendel083 wrote:It does make sense that an IC with a jumppack would simply jump away to leave a squad, and many people play it that way. But technically he's still part of the unit until he leaves the unit.

Personaly I'm not opposed if an opponent wants to do it that way, as long as it's not abused. I have seen an IC jump to the front of a large unit with the 'intention' of leaving (followed by "Oh no, he's still within 2" and part of the unit, whoops") just in time for an assault. He was promptly told to put the character back...

Interesting, you mention this. I think I just watched a video on this (maybe Beasts of War?) that showed you how to use an IC's MtC to boost a unit through difficult terrain.

reps0l wrote:

grendel083 wrote:It does make sense that an IC with a jumppack would simply jump away to leave a squad, and many people play it that way. But technically he's still part of the unit until he leaves the unit.

Personaly I'm not opposed if an opponent wants to do it that way, as long as it's not abused. I have seen an IC jump to the front of a large unit with the 'intention' of leaving (followed by "Oh no, he's still within 2" and part of the unit, whoops") just in time for an assault. He was promptly told to put the character back...

Interesting, you mention this. I think I just watched a video on this (maybe Beasts of War?) that showed you how to use an IC's MtC to boost a unit through difficult terrain.

Be interesting to watch if you can find the link.

Unless the IC is touching base with one of the models of the squad, when you roll double 1s, that is enough to have the IC separated.

It is, thus, the player's fault to not be able to do so.

reps0l wrote:Interesting, you mention this. I think I just watched a video on this (maybe Beasts of War?) that showed you how to use an IC's MtC to boost a unit through difficult terrain.

Beasts of War has a long history of getting the rules wrong.

leohart wrote:Unless the IC is touching base with one of the models of the squad, when you roll double 1s, that is enough to have the IC separated.

It is, thus, the player's fault to not be able to do so.

Unless the IC is in the middle of a squad and not on the edge. Then, you'll need more than a 1" move to separate them.

kmdl1066 wrote:Jump pack IC with unit of foot. IC declares he is leaving the unit and moves 8" forward. So far so good. They''re clearly two units being moved interdependently. Later in the movement phase the foot unit moves forward 6". End of the movement phase the IC is within 2" of a unit (the foot unit) and so must join the unit. IC declares a charge against an enemy that is within charge range of the IC but out of charge range of the foot. Lucky thing they're one unit now, right?

So you have to house rule the house rule to say that if the IC does move off from the unit using the jump pack, the unit cannot then trundle up to within 2" of the IC.

Which never works, ever.

You have not left the unit until the end of the movement phase, as that is when you cehck coherency. So you are constrained by moving 6" a turn

His point was if you allow the extra movement from being a different unit type, such a situation is possible. One reason why it's a bad idea to allow it.

grendel083 wrote:

reps0l wrote:

grendel083 wrote:It does make sense that an IC with a jumppack would simply jump away to leave a squad, and many people play it that way. But technically he's still part of the unit until he leaves the unit.

Personaly I'm not opposed if an opponent wants to do it that way, as long as it's not abused. I have seen an IC jump to the front of a large unit with the 'intention' of leaving (followed by "Oh no, he's still within 2" and part of the unit, whoops") just in time for an assault. He was promptly told to put the character back...

Interesting, you mention this. I think I just watched a video on this (maybe Beasts of War?) that showed you how to use an IC's MtC to boost a unit through difficult terrain.

Be interesting to watch if you can find the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKrBKPuYbng

I was incorrect...they don't show an IC jumping ahead to bring the unit into assault, just the IC leaving and using its MtC in the same movement phase. Sorry.

Grakmar wrote:

reps0l wrote:Interesting, you mention this. I think I just watched a video on this (maybe Beasts of War?) that showed you how to use an IC's MtC to boost a unit through difficult terrain.

Beasts of War has a long history of getting the rules wrong.

Bummer, their vids have nice quality.

kmdl1066 wrote:Jump pack IC with unit of foot. IC declares he is leaving the unit and moves 8" forward. So far so good. They''re clearly two units being moved interdependently. Later in the movement phase the foot unit moves forward 6".

Whether or not you allow the IC to move with his own rules, that doesn't work. The IC leaves the unit as the unit moves. You can't move the IC, go do other movement, and then come back to the unit the IC was with.