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The augmentation thread made me think this up.

Say that we found a way to hybridise brains with electronic technologies, literally stick a hard drive in there...

It's widely considered ethical, there are no protests... it's a fact of life (everyone has one).

In that kind of environment would it be illogical/immoral for schoolchildren to simply have a standard curriculum uploaded into their brains. Fully comprehensive; every maths thing ever, all history ever, and hell... even philosophy and morals.

Not sure if I'd suggest this should go to the extent of newborn babies having premade personalities inserted into their craniums, but the possibilities of that are compelling; if a way were found to wipe human brains, would there be a problem with 'reinstalling windows' onto the brain of a psychopath?

Thoughts, Dakka!

Raw facts and data, but whose philosophy and morals? Also education should be more than number crunching and fact learning, it should be about acquiring skills in interpretation and analysis, being able to assess a range of evidence to develop arguments.

But that would take all the fun out of learning!

Wait, you guys don't have fun learning?

even philosophy and morals.

You see no moral/ethical quagmire in some random administrator programming children to believe what is right/wrong?

No. You should learn as you go along. Learning allows you to form your own ideas, and create your own self.

If we're all programmed, we're all the same. Thus, individuality is fethed.

See: Presidents John Jackson and Jack Johnson.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Raw facts and data, but whose philosophy and morals? Also education should be more than number crunching and fact learning, it should be about acquiring skills in interpretation and analysis, being able to assess a range of evidence to develop arguments.

What are skills if not information that we access from our heads just like everything else? All I can think of as being problematic is muscle memory. But I'm no psychiatrist/Biologist/any kind of qualifie individual. We History Students just like to fantasise

LordofHats wrote:But that would take all the fun out of learning!

Wait, you guys don't have fun learning?

even philosophy and morals.

You see no moral/ethical quagmire in some random administrator programming children to believe what is right/wrong?

Not sure if I advocate it - just wanted a point of discussion.

But one might say that there is a greater good to be gained from a harmonious society than any loss of individuality... ye gads, Communism could work!


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Chowderhead wrote:No. You should learn as you go along. Learning allows you to form your own ideas, and create your own self.

If we're all programmed, we're all the same. Thus, individuality is fethed.

See: Presidents John Jackson and Jack Johnson.

Isn't individuality only valuable so long as societies choose to value it? If society is programmed - what's the problem?

Oooh my, I think I can see a potential sci-fi race

Well, many of the greatest innovators in human history have been social outcasts. Group think stifles free thought and leads to stagnation. I don't see the advantage of a mass enforced group think on the entire human race as holding practical advantages.

LordofHats wrote:But that would take all the fun out of learning!

Wait, you guys don't have fun learning?

even philosophy and morals.

You see no moral/ethical quagmire in some random administrator programming children to believe what is right/wrong?

I don't have any problem with that as long as I am the random administrator

"In 2016 Frazzled was elected President of the United States, garnering a record 100% of the youth vote."

Experience is the only teacher. even having an educator provide the material, its not really ever going to click until you work through it.

why mess with the machine? The human body is profoundly capable of many many things. "sticking a hard drive in it" seems unnecessary.

Isn't individuality only valuable so long as societies choose to value it? If society is programmed - what's the problem?

Oooh my, I think I can see a potential sci-fi race

There will always be people who live off grid. If there are free thinkers, there is a monkey wrench in the system. Also, who builds the machines? Who repairs them, who controls the Government?

Will we become meaningless people, doing what our programming commands us to do? Will we learn of free will? If not, then what will we learn? Will we learn enough to get by? What happens in the event of the Free Thinkers attacking?

(Devil's Advocate! )

How about we amend the 'reprogramming idea' since it seems we have a 100% rally against it.

Reprogramme the insane, anyone? Psychopaths? Child rapists?


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I have to say I feel like a 1950s advocate of lobotomies

Henners91 wrote:How about we amend the 'reprogramming idea' since it seems we have a 100% rally against it.

Reprogramme the insane, anyone? Psychopaths? Child rapists?


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I have to say I feel like a 1950s advocate of lobotomies

I wouldn't bother trying to save scum and make them "better". just kill the rapists and cleanse the gene pool.

Rimmy wrote:

Henners91 wrote:How about we amend the 'reprogramming idea' since it seems we have a 100% rally against it.

Reprogramme the insane, anyone? Psychopaths? Child rapists?


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I have to say I feel like a 1950s advocate of lobotomies

I wouldn't bother trying to save scum and make them "better". just kill the rapists and cleanse the gene pool.

Eh. I would see if we could treat the Rapists (Not Reprogram!). If we can't, off to a prison colony.

Okay - a third go at it.

Kill rapists?

What about conversion into Servitors? :>

In the "Night's Dawn" trilogy, the vast majority of students are "implanted" with information (also done when people are purchasing new implants or equipment etc to give them the knowledge of how to operate them, etc), with implantation success being assessed with testing etc.

However, information alone does not equate to understanding and ability; certainly many of the base informational data can be "installed" in a person, but to make sense of it does require active thought (at least as far as I would imagine it).

There is generally more to learning than just memorising the facts e.g. most of my exams at uni were around the application of the facts to differing situations rather than essays requiring regurgitation of facts.

Having said that it would be handy to be able to pick up a download so you suddenly knew how to pilot a helicopter a la matrix.

Henners91 wrote:Okay - a third go at it.

Kill rapists?

What about conversion into Servitors? :>

Now you're thinking.

When faced with questions such as these, I like to pretend it happened several hundred years ago, or even a handful of months ago, imposed by the strongest power at the time, and then view how I would expect the outcome to be:

Miguel de Cervantes - 0
Spanish Inquisition - 1

Galileo Galilei - 0
Spanish Inquisition - 2

British Colonies - 0
British Empire - 1

People of Libya - 0
Government of Libya - 1


My conclusion is that sometimes dissent and individuality are not a bad thing. I mean, I would be willing to stop and attempt to listen to a suggestion of doing that, simply with mathematics, history, and science/engineering, but on the other hand, there's places who think the South won the war of Northern Aggression, and others still who would fight me to the death over the world being flat and only 6000 years old. I don't want them pulling the trigger on that.

It's like that classic statement, "Just sterilize/kill/imprison/waffle the stupid/bad/waffle people!" Great idea, now who implements it? Where's the cut off? How much oversight does it have?

There's more power here than any one man or group is meant to have. Hell, modern brainwashing is dangerous enough.

Yeah...let's take away a system that is supposed to (doesn't always) teach kids to think outside the box, and instead get them to just 'do as they're told,' for lack of a better term. Do you like advancing as a race? If this started happening now, we'd have no advancement past what our current thinkers are creating. Granted, there would be no more war, no more hunger, and no more individuality and growth. Stagnant race? Yes. Humans ever getting to the stars, being able to teleport, develop hover cars, find the cure for cancer, or creating a licorice that doesn't taste like a weiner dog's back end? Forget about it.

Actually all you're get is data. All that other stuff humans have to go through. Imagine less like what you're talking about, and more like a photographic memory of every book you ever read, plus every book in the Library of Congress.

I don't think Galileo was tried by the Spanish Inquisition... see as he was in Italy...

I see both pros and cons to this one. Id say, the middle ground would be best. Go to a school setting for X amount of years, then once reached, install mode time. That keeps everyone being themselves, they actually learned some things on their own, AND once they graduate or whatever the criteria is, they can integrate into society with super intelligence like everyone else. But just shoving it in there when they are 5 wont cut it, there are things humans learn/gain from social interactions and not to mention, some things we need to just learn on our own.


Also I think when it comes to programming, anything that isnt 100% factual, like 5 + 5 = 10, shouldnt be put in there. Simply because things that are opinions, like religion, music, personal tastes, politics and so on, are just that, opinions, and should be left out. Im a somewhat religious person, but I dont force that on my children, I dont make them goto church every Sunday and tell them that if they dont believe they will burn in hell. I simply answer any questions they have on matters like that, and tell them "you can make your own decisions on the matter" And Im fine with whatever they come up with. Thats how it should be done on this topic as well

That might be more okay, so long as that's all it was. Implementing philosophy and morals in any capacity beyond a "reference" is chilling to me. That in and of itself may be too much. Not decided yet. It would probably destroy the book review industry, but it's upon your conscience that this weights upon, not mine.

I've always liked reading books though; I just don't always have the time anymore.


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LordofHats wrote:I don't think Galileo was tried by the Spanish Inquisition... see as he was in Italy...

Bah, sorry, so it wasn't the "Spanish" inquisition.

You could say no one in my place could have expected that.

timetowaste85 wrote:or creating a licorice that doesn't taste like a weiner dog's back end? Forget about it.

Licorice is amazing tasting, unless we start talking about Black Licorice. Feth that stuff.

LordofHats wrote:I don't think Galileo was tried by the Spanish Inquisition... see as he was in Italy...

I would say no, to go back OT. While being uploaded with all the info wouldn't be bad, how could we stop someone from coming in and changing it to philosophical and moral thoughts?

Groupthink isn't an inherent bad, in fact it probably got us where we are today, in evolutionary terms. Ideas are disseminated and accepted by groups of humans, that's one of the functions of culture, and also how it is best expressed. This allows things like using fire and tools to take hold as a concept. The spread of these ideas amongst the population means that there are more brains able to explore the implications of this knowledge, and our capacity for abstract thought means that we will constantly push and probe the boundaries of the concept, eventually changing, adapting and transcending it in some cases. That's how knowledge leads to other knowledge. It's an evolution.

If we were able to download say, the entirety of mathematical theory into the brains of the entire human race, then that would be the baseline of our mathematical knowledge as a race, and then our human brains would take over, pushing, probing... Ultimately progressing and expanding mathematics.


On a slight tangent, have you started smoking pot or something, Henners?

It's impossible.

I'm sure you think posting that makes you mature and incisive.

You may as well speak of making a mechanical man. It's absurd. We are animals and we have animal emotions that govern our behaviour and our learning.

And our animal brains are capable of storing information. It should theoretically be possible to explore alternative methods of importing information into the brain.

Albatross wrote:And our animal brains are capable of storing information. It should theoretically be possible to explore alternative methods of importing information into the brain.

I can hold your brain in my hand. I cannot hold code. The two are separate.

Testify wrote:

Albatross wrote:And our animal brains are capable of storing information. It should theoretically be possible to explore alternative methods of importing information into the brain.

I can hold your brain in my hand. I cannot hold code. The two are separate.

But what is a brain? There are people with brains but no memories, just as there are people with brains but no motor functions.

A Brain is nothimg more than an organic hard drive, when you think about it; useless on it's own, but it holds so much.