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Does anyone feel there are any "broken" units in Imperial Armour 2: Second Edition for use in 40k game. I.E. not talking about apocalypse games or units for this question.

Nope... I think the new IA:2nd edition units are fine (the ones stamped with 40k symbol).

The two units that most folks complain about are LR Achilles (you pay thru the nose) and Lucius DropPods (a diff Dread goes here)... but I don't think they're that big of a deal.

I'm an Ork general... and I fething LOVE the new orks units!

Gimmie 3 Siggoth! OOOOooo gimme some Grot Tanks!... Oh! Oh! I want dat Grot MegaTank!

Ahem.. sorry... got bit 'cited there...

I don't mind any of the Forgeworld stuff except for that pod, I am about to ban it in my group even with the new rules...I hate that thing...

Jihadnik wrote:I don't mind any of the Forgeworld stuff except for that pod, I am about to ban it in my group even with the new rules...I hate that thing...

Honestly...why?

How's it any different (threat-wise) than the normal pod+dread with MM and Flamer? Using the Lucius Pod, you'd wanna use a CC-oriented Dread.

And... it isn't all that...

That pod actually takes up a FA FOC slot and Dreads must take a DT roll in order to assualt after DS.

I know what you mean, but I got slapped by a 'mate' that used six dread pods at once by taking the master of forge and using all heavy and elite slots, then five more empty pods from tac squads later. That sucked hard and I wasn't pleased.

Admittedly this was before the new rules came out though...

I've yet to actually see the rules where they have been changed though which might influence me.

Fair enuff...

New rules are that each pod takes a FA FOC slot and that the dreads must take a DT test when assaulting out of it... and, they're kinda spendy for being a non-shooty pod, so it pretty much balance it out.

It's really difficult to miss an assault with the pod. Target point= 1" from the squad you want to assault.

Hit= No problem

Scatter into squad=no problem, pod stops short.

Scatter 9" or less directly away from the squad you want to assault= No problem. Deploy 2+ from the pod + 2.36" for the base + 6" assault=10.36" assault radius from the pod.

Jihadnik wrote:I know what you mean, but I got slapped by a 'mate' that used six dread pods at once by taking the master of forge and using all heavy and elite slots, then five more empty pods from tac squads later. That sucked hard and I wasn't pleased.

Admittedly this was before the new rules came out though...

I've yet to actually see the rules where they have been changed though which might influence me.

They can only take three max, as a Lucius pod takes a Fast FoC slot, costs about 60+ points, and if the dread assaults it takes a DT test.

Oh and it cannot be taken by blood angels.

Yup... so no BA Blood Talon shenanigans...

Still... it's a knarly combo... but, not broken imo.

The Achilles really frightens me, due to the Thunderfire Cannon and the -1 on the damage chart. Past that, I have to deal with it the same way as usual - Deffrolla an' Powerklaw gubbins.

But then again, there are "normal codex" units/combos that are far more frightening to me than anything within the Apoc 2nd Ed book.

I generally don't see much in the book that strikes me as overpowered - and certainly not more so than some of the things we already see in the normal codices.

I personally own a batch of Grot Tanks, took them to a tourny this weekend, where they were well received (with an exception of two guys - one being a bit of a rules laywer, the other someone who I thrashed mostly due to his own decisions).

schadenfreude wrote:It's really difficult to miss an assault with the pod. Target point= 1" from the squad you want to assault.

Hit= No problem

Scatter into squad=no problem, pod stops short.

Scatter 9" or less directly away from the squad you want to assault= No problem. Deploy 2+ from the pod + 2.36" for the base + 6" assault=10.36" assault radius from the pod.

It says disembark within 2 inches, doesnt that mean the whole base has to be in that two inch zone? I dont see how people say you get the extra x amount due to the base. If the whole base doesnt have to be within that zone id like to know, since it means ive been playing wrong for a while

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:It's really difficult to miss an assault with the pod. Target point= 1" from the squad you want to assault.

Hit= No problem

Scatter into squad=no problem, pod stops short.

Scatter 9" or less directly away from the squad you want to assault= No problem. Deploy 2+ from the pod + 2.36" for the base + 6" assault=10.36" assault radius from the pod.

It says disembark within 2 inches, doesnt that mean the whole base has to be in that two inch zone? I dont see how people say you get the extra x amount due to the base. If the whole base doesnt have to be within that zone id like to know, since it means ive been playing wrong for a while

The Dreadnought's base is more than 2". How could you put all of the base within 2"?

All you have to do is have one part of the base within 1.99" of the pod, dude.

The Land Raider Achilles is broken when facing the Eldar. The Eldar have no reliable method of killing it. The Achilles ignores the Lance property of the Eldar weapons so now all Eldar lances are relying on only glancing the thing. Lance weapons are too expensive in the Eldar codex to take a ton of them like the Dark Eldar can so Eldar can't even glance it to death realistically.

Next it ignores Melta. The other thing Eldar rely on to punch armor 14. So again, Eldar are reduced to glancing hits on it. And again, glances stand little chance of killing a land Raider.

Eldar really don't have what it takes to kill this thing. I shudder to face someone that takes more than one of them. Talk about an uphill battle!

Glance plus a -1 on the chart, so -3 overall. A 6 gets you a weapon destroyed - not even an immobilization. Have fun with that.

Nids are in a similar boat, but actually have STR10 weapons to attempt to pen with. That Thunderfire Cannon is scary, however, and proponents of the unit always discount it.

The Land Raider Achilles is broken when facing the Eldar. The Eldar have no reliable method of killing it. The Achilles ignores the Lance property of the Eldar weapons so now all Eldar lances are relying on only glancing the thing. Lance weapons are too expensive in the Eldar codex to take a ton of them like the Dark Eldar can so Eldar can't even glance it to death realistically.

Next it ignores Melta. The other thing Eldar rely on to punch armor 14. So again, Eldar are reduced to glancing hits on it. And again, glances stand little chance of killing a land Raider.

Eldar really don't have what it takes to kill this thing. I shudder to face someone that takes more than one of them. Talk about an uphill battle!

Seer councils, D-Cannons, and Wraithcannons all have a decent chance at killing it. Tankhunters on Fire Dragons still works too. Melta may not get the bonus die, but the AP1 still applies to the damage table...which means AP makes it a straight roll on the damage table. D-Cannons, and Wraith Cannons don't care what the AV is on things. It's also a huge points-sink. Ignore it, and kill the rest of the opponent's army.

Fragons charging (hard, admittedly), Swooping Hawks with Intercept charging (more viable since your opponent will be too busy laughing about how you brought hawks to notice you glancing their achilles to death with haywires), Wraithlords in combat, Wraithcannons, Linked Prisms (yes, there's a chance of scattering, but a Land Raider hull is large enough to mitigate scatter), ramming, D-Cannons, Vibro-Cannons (again, opponent laughter ensures you can keep glancing it to death).

Or from FW: Warp Hunter, Wraithseer, assuming nothing for Apocalypse only is allowed.

I've probably missed something, but ah well.

Disclaimer: I realise the vast majority of these options are not competative, but show that Eldar do have the means of dealing with it, however annoyingly difficult 'dealing with it' may be to achieve.

The Land Raider Achilles is a gun-platform with mediocre guns for a ridiculous price.

One does not typically need to worry about the Achilles. Everyone is thinking "I must kill Land Raider" because Land Raiders are typically bringing some death-star straight into your face. The Achilles does not have that capability.

Killing an Achilles takes about the same priority as killing a Predator. It has the firepower of one Predator and the cost of almost 2 and a half.

DarknessEternal wrote:Killing an Achilles takes about the same priority as killing a Predator. It has the firepower of one Predator and the cost of almost 2 and a half.

Sorry - I think Thunderfire Cannons are quite a bit stronger than an Autocannon or Lascannon.
It's not that the Land Raider needs to die because it can deliver bad things - it's that the Achilles needs to die because it's templating my swarms to death.

Eldar don't have the luxury of letting something like the Achilles live due to the Thunderfire Cannon making Eldar tanks move as if they are in dangerous terrain. And anyone that thinks they can't deliver a deathstar straight to the face of the enemy hasn't seen 4 Wolf Lords pile out of one and murder everything.

Sure, there are plenty of things the eldar "could" take to kill it, but no one ever does. Not if they want to win the game in a tournament setting.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Eldar don't have the luxury of letting something like the Achilles live due to the Thunderfire Cannon making Eldar tanks move as if they are in dangerous terrain. And anyone that thinks they can't deliver a deathstar straight to the face of the enemy hasn't seen 4 Wolf Lords pile out of one and murder everything.

They can get out, and then you can shoot at them. Four T4 guys aren't exactly difficult to deal with when they're just standing around.

Achilles is not an Assault Vehicle.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Eldar don't have the luxury of letting something like the Achilles live due to the Thunderfire Cannon making Eldar tanks move as if they are in dangerous terrain. And anyone that thinks they can't deliver a deathstar straight to the face of the enemy hasn't seen 4 Wolf Lords pile out of one and murder everything.

They can get out, and then you can shoot at them. Four T4 guys aren't exactly difficult to deal with when they're just standing around.

Achilles is not an Assault Vehicle.

Or - it drives up, chills out because it's hard to kill, and then they disembark, move, assault on their turn.

rigeld2 wrote:
Or - it drives up, chills out because it's hard to kill, and then they disembark, move, assault on their turn.

And why didn't you walk away? Unless you're fighting Shrike's crew, nothing in an Achilles is Fleet. Therefore, anything can get out of assault range if it feels like it.

DarknessEternal wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Or - it drives up, chills out because it's hard to kill, and then they disembark, move, assault on their turn.

And why didn't you walk away? Unless you're fighting Shrike's crew, nothing in an Achilles is Fleet. Therefore, anything can get out of assault range if it feels like it.

Because it's the only objective I had left?
Because that's a 14" assault range on their turn? (well, 13.999)
Because the board isn't infinitely large?
Because impassable terrain exists?

edit: Because if he's using the Achilles to control the flow of battle, that's a HUGE benefit.

So the Achilles is basically all that people are mildly concerned about with IA:2 2nd edition. That is what are group came up with also.

Does anyone feel there is anything that would be more broken at a lower points value say 1000-1250 than it would be at 1500+ points?

whembly wrote:Nope... I think the new IA:2nd edition units are fine (the ones stamped with 40k symbol).

The two units that most folks complain about are LR Achilles (you pay thru the nose) and Lucius DropPods (a diff Dread goes here)... but I don't think they're that big of a deal.

I'm an Ork general... and I fething LOVE the new orks units!

Gimmie 3 Siggoth! OOOOooo gimme some Grot Tanks!... Oh! Oh! I want dat Grot MegaTank!

Ahem.. sorry... got bit 'cited there...

I'll 'cite' this.

Also, please use Through here. Thru is really annoying.

The eldar can also ram it. Full speed ahead will mean you hit it for S10 afterall.

Scipio Africanus wrote:

whembly wrote:Nope... I think the new IA:2nd edition units are fine (the ones stamped with 40k symbol).

The two units that most folks complain about are LR Achilles (you pay thru the nose) and Lucius DropPods (a diff Dread goes here)... but I don't think they're that big of a deal.

I'm an Ork general... and I fething LOVE the new orks units!

Gimmie 3 Siggoth! OOOOooo gimme some Grot Tanks!... Oh! Oh! I want dat Grot MegaTank!

Ahem.. sorry... got bit 'cited there...

I'll 'cite' this.

Also, please use Through here. Thru is really annoying.

Thanks!

Just so that you know, "thru" is an informal use for "through". I wouldn't use it on a cover letter or any "published" work, but it's certainly acceptable to use on a forum.

Back to the discussion...

I don't consider the Achilles any more threatening then a standard LR that terminators can assault out of, which you cannot do with the Achilles.

All the Achilles is that it's a mobile gunship that just so happens to be a mobile bunker as well.

**disclaimer... I'm NOT being a meanie here... **

Here's what I don't understand... these new units (from Forgeworld) are new "stuff" that spices up the game a bit. I'm very surpirsed that there are resistances to these units.

The ones that are "stamped" with 40k in IA:2ed are perfectly fine for standard games...

So what if some of these units beat your standard list... ADAPT! CALIBRATE! This is one of those things imo that makes 40k exciting!
/semi-rant off

Edit: Nevermind - not worth it.

You don't need to assault out of it. Since you aren't shooting it (or at least aren't killing it) the troops can assault out on their next turn.

True... it's a gunship. But I wouldn't put in any unit that you want to assault with... seems a waste. I'd do just cheap standard marines for obj camping since the Achilles a mobile bunker.

I don't get why people think its expensive - yes it's a large investment in points.

It's the most expensive LR there is... hence spendy.

Things you get over a standard Land Raider:
Thunderfire Cannon

Bah... there are better shooty things that spech mureen can use. It's versatile, I'll give it that!

-1 on the damage chart

Okay... my hands are up in the air... that is nice.

Melta resistance

Bah... ain't that much different than that BA LR or StormRaven (can't remember which codex..). Or the old Monolith for that matter. YEAH... it's the NEW MONOLITH!!! OMG! Run for da hills man!

Yes you lose assault ramps, and while that's a noticeable loss the extra survivability gained can't be discounted.

I'm not discounting those... I just look at the Achilles vs Standard LR as two different roles in the army.

I guess I'm coming from a position that the Achilles doesn't give me any more indigestion than a standard LR. Both of 'em will have to eat Haywires or Lances from my DE lists or PowerKlaws, DR, Kans/Dreads in my Ork lists. So... "meh...".

If 40k stamps become "standard play" ...

Um... that's what they mean...
In the IA:2nd ed. book, page 3 in the "Classifying the Entries in this Book" section, I'll highlight something for you:

3. Warhammer 40,000 Unit: This unit is
intended to be used in 'standard' games
of Warhammer 40,000, within the usual
limitations of Codex selection and force
organisation charts. As with all our models
these should be considered 'official', but
owing to the fact they may be unknown to
your opponent, it's best to make sure they
are happy to play a game using Forge World
models before you start.

So... as clear as you can be... they're "official" and in casual games it's best to inform your opponent of the FW unit (we're all nice blokes!).

I'll be using one in my SM army I'm building up.

Why not three!!! I'll play ya!

Edit: and as far as "ADAPT" and "CALIBRATE" when the additional FW units are even comparable, I'll adapt. Compared to the Achilles, the Malanthrope is a joke.

That's the SPIRIT!
<Whembly readz the Malanthrope>
eh... you do have a point... BUT... the Stone-Crusher Carnie ain't bad man.. (even does +1 to Dmg Chart on vehciles... take THAT Achilles!). But, I'm not a Bug playa... so, not sure if that carnie is any good...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:Edit: Nevermind - not worth it.

LOL! It was good!

You should read your own quote. This was done to death in Discussions, but you have to make sure your opponent is okay with FW units - meaning its less standard than normal units.

And the stone crusher carnies would be good but they're really expensive for what you get. They look awesome tho.