Normal Weapon and TWO HANDED special weapon?

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**Deadshot**

So a normal weapon, like a Pistol and a two handed special weapon? OR, a 2 handed normal weapon (Bolter Butt) and a special weapon.

Can I choose to use the normal weapon over the special weapon? For example, could Vulkan He'stan use his Bolt Pistol (1 Handed) in CC instead of his spear (2 handed)? Or, in example 2, could a guy with Stormbolter (2 handed) and Thunder Hammer (1 handed) use the Stormbolter to avoid strike at Int 1( say he was fighting ork warboss who was sure to destroy him if they struck first)

**Grakmar**

I think you must use a special weapon if you have one. But, I can't find a rule stating that for 2H ones.

But, for example 2, a Stormbolter is not a CCW, so you cannot use it.

**Deadshot**

Fine, then, a custom warboss Character with Big Choppa and PK. Same idea.

Obviously this is a gap in the rules, and I want to know how it would work. It mainly applies to the latter. The Warboss, could strike at Str 10, but Int 1. Or Str 7 (8 on charge) but Int 4 (5 on chagre) should it be needed. Vulkan isnt going to use a Bolt Pistol over his spear, but its there anyway.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Can he take a Big Choppa and a PK? Is that even possible?

Anyway, I think you are allowed to choose what special weapon to use.

**Grakmar**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Can he take a Big Choppa and a PK? Is that even possible?

It is not. Both require replacing the Choppa.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Anyway, I think you are allowed to choose what special weapon to use.

Yeah, if you have multiple special close combat weapons, you can choose which to use. The issue is what happens if you have a special and a normal CCW, one of which is 2-handed and the other is 1-handed.

**Deadshot**

No, he has either but no both. Talking hypothetically

**Grakmar**

Deadshot wrote:No, he has either but no both. Talking hypothetically

Here's the way I see it:

Special 1H CCW + Special 2H CCW = Choose which to use.
Special 1H CCW + Normal 2H CCW = Moot point, as there are no normal 2H CCWs in game.
Normal 1H CCW + Special 2H CCW = Unknown. My gut feeling is that you have to use the Special 2H CCW, but I can't justify that.

**Lone Dragoon**

You have to use special attacks, page 35 paragraph after the bullet points

All engaged models will fight in this turn’s Assault phase with their full number of Attacks and use any special close combat attack they have.

**nkelsch**

Grakmar wrote:
Deadshot wrote:No, he has either but no both. Talking hypothetically

Here's the way I see it:

Special 1H CCW + Special 2H CCW = Choose which to use.
Special 1H CCW + Normal 2H CCW = Moot point, as there are no normal 2H CCWs in game.
Normal 1H CCW + Special 2H CCW = Unknown. My gut feeling is that you have to use the Special 2H CCW, but I can't justify that.

I agree with this chart.

There are no such things as 2-handed weapons which are not special. Rifle Butt is an 'example' but does not exist. A 'shoota' is not a 2-handed CCW because it has a rifle butt. Even the Big Choppa modifies strength making it a special weapon as it has an effect.

If you have a special weapon and a normal CC weapon, you MUST use the special weapon unless you have multiple special weapons and then you can choose.

So no, having a bolter does not give you a 2-handed regular CC weapon which you can then choose to 'turn off' your PF to strike at I instead of forcing you to use your PF.

**Grakmar**

Lone Dragoon wrote:You have to use special attacks, page 35 paragraph after the bullet points

All engaged models will fight in this turn’s Assault phase with their full number of Attacks and use any special close combat attack they have.

Perfect! That's the quote I was looking for. So, here's my updated chart:

Special 1H CCW + Special 2H CCW = Choose which to use.
Special 1H CCW + Normal 2H CCW = Moot point, as there are no normal 2H CCWs in game. But, if one is made, you must use the Special 1H CCW.
Normal 1H CCW + Special 2H CCW = Tou have to use the Special 2H CCW.

**DeathReaper**

You have to use special attacks. as per P.35

P.35 does not mention anything about special weapons.

**ItsPug**

Special 1H CCW + Special 2H CCW = Choose which to use.
Special 1H CCW + Normal 2H CCW = Moot point, as there are no normal 2H CCWs in game. But, if one is made, you must use the Special 1H CCW.
Normal 1H CCW + Special 2H CCW = You have to use the Special 2H CCW.

Correct.

But the point to be clear on is that a 2H weapon is not a weapon type per se, it just disallows you from weilding it with an additional close combat weapon to gain an extra attack. ie no using a relic blade and bolt pistol on a captain to gain an extra attack.

**DeathReaper**

ItsPug wrote:Special 1H CCW + Special 2H CCW = Choose which to use.
Special 1H CCW + Normal 2H CCW = Moot point, as there are no normal 2H CCWs in game. But, if one is made, you must use the Special 1H CCW.
Normal 1H CCW + Special 2H CCW = You have to use the Special 2H CCW.

Correct.

not correct, as you are not forced to use special CCW's, as P.35 does not mention anything about must use special weapons.

It says You must use special attacks.

**Lightcavalier**

Special CCWs modify your attacks...so yes you are forced to use them

"Models wounded in close combat by the attacks of a model armed with a power weapon are not allowed armour saves."

Having a power weapons makes your attacks "special attacks"

etc.

**ItsPug**

DeathReaper wrote:
ItsPug wrote:Special 1H CCW + Special 2H CCW = Choose which to use.
Special 1H CCW + Normal 2H CCW = Moot point, as there are no normal 2H CCWs in game. But, if one is made, you must use the Special 1H CCW.
Normal 1H CCW + Special 2H CCW = You have to use the Special 2H CCW.

Correct.

not correct, as you are not forced to use special CCW's, as P.35 does not mention anything about must use special weapons.

It says You must use special attacks.

pg 42 disagrees with you "a normal and special weapon: These models gain one additional attack. All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use the special weapon's bonuses and penalties"

if you have a special weapon in CC you must use it, if you have more than one (and a 2 handed close combat weapon is not in and of itself special) then you may choose which to use.

**DeathReaper**

If you have a Special CCW and only one other weapon, then yes you must use the special weapon.

That does not make an attack with a special weapon a "Special Attack"

if you have 3 CCW's and one of them is a Special weapon then you would have to chose a set of 2 weapons to use, as you can only use 2 CCW's and having more than two grants no additional benefit.

**ItsPug**

DeathReaper wrote:if you have 3 CCW's and one of them is a Special weapon then you would have to chose a set of 2 weapons to use, as you can only use 2 CCW's and having more than two grants no additional benefit.

Where does it say you get to choose which two weapons you use? page 35 says you must attack with your special attacks if you have them.

To be given a choice of which weapons you want to use you need to have 2 (or more) different special weapons. page 42 also how special weapons are combined with normal weapons, and other special weapons.

page 42 also states if you're using a special weapon that is two handed you may not combine it with a single handed weapon, which answers the OP question as you must use the special and not the normal CCW regardless of which (if either) is a 2 handed weapon.

**DeathReaper**

On P.42 it says that some models are equipped with 2 ccw's they can use in CC.

and [Edit P. 37] says having more than 2 ccw's gives no additional benefit.

So we can only use 2 weapons to attack with in CC. and the list on P.42 gives us rules for the different possible combinations.

A special attack is like "The Betrayer" from Karn Or "Ferocious Instincts" from Gabriel Seth.

**ItsPug**

DeathReaper wrote:P. 35 says having more than 2 ccw's gives no additional benefit.

Actually it says that on page 37, and it qualifies that statement by saying "- you only get one extra attack, even if you have more than two weapons" Its also a dead giveaway that it is only tallking about the number of attacks you can make because the title of that section is "Number of attacks"

DeathReaper wrote:On P.42 it says that some models are equipped with 2 ccw's they can use in CC.

Yep and under the options for what they can use you have the option for two single (non special) CCWs, but page 35 says you need to use your special attacks if you have them. which if you have a special CCW (which is, in the majority of cases, what actually grants you the special attacks) and two non special weapons means you must use the special and a normal weapon.

**nosferatu1001**

"A special attack is like "The Betrayer" from Karn Or "Ferocious Instincts" from Gabriel Seth. "

Again, that is your opinion, and is not explicitly stated as so in any rules anywhere.

They are examples of special attacks, they are not the only attacks that are special. Removing an ability to take an armour save seems special to me, as normally you take an armour save against close combat attacks. SCCW are even called special.

**Happyjew**

So if you MUST use "special attacks" what happens when you're special attack is a once per game thing like Yriel's Eye? You must use it every time in cc (as it is a "special attack) but can only be used once (unlike his Singing Spear).

**ItsPug**

Happyjew wrote:So if you MUST use "special attacks" what happens when you're special attack is a once per game thing like Yriel's Eye? You must use it every time in cc (as it is a "special attack) but can only be used once (unlike his Singing Spear).

nope its optional, not like a power weapon which says you must use it. Worst case scenario? RAW he should use it in the furst turn after that he cannot use it again as the rule only allows him to use it once (specific overrides general)

**Zuul**

Okay, so I'm still a bit confused. Say an honour guard who comes stock with a power weapon, boltgun, and bolt pistol but also takes a relic blade does he or does he not have the option to use either the relic blade or the powersword/bolt pistol combo in close combat as the situation may dictate?

**ToBeWilly**

Zuul wrote:Okay, so I'm still a bit confused. Say an honour guard who comes stock with a power weapon, boltgun, and bolt pistol but also takes a relic blade does he or does he not have the option to use either the relic blade or the powersword/bolt pistol combo in close combat as the situation may dictate?

They can choose which to use, the Relic Blade or the Power Weapon/Bolt Pistol combo, but they will never get the extra attack for having a second close combat weapon. See page 42, BRB, second column, under "Two different special weapons". So, it is pointless never to use the Relic Blade and attack at Streangth 6.

**DeathReaper**

ToBeWilly wrote:They can choose which to use, the Relic Blade or the Power Weapon/Bolt Pistol combo, but they will never get the extra attack for having a second close combat weapon. See page 42, BRB, second column, under "Two different special weapons". So, it is pointless never to use the Relic Blade and attack at Streangth 6.

That is only true if you are using 2 special CCW's.

If you are using the Power weapon/BP you will get the extra attack.

**ToBeWilly**

DeathReaper wrote:
ToBeWilly wrote:They can choose which to use, the Relic Blade or the Power Weapon/Bolt Pistol combo, but they will never get the extra attack for having a second close combat weapon. See page 42, BRB, second column, under "Two different special weapons". So, it is pointless never to use the Relic Blade and attack at Streangth 6.

That is only true if you are using 2 special CCW's.

If you are using the Power weapon/BP you will get the extra attack.

You are correct. Oops. Two special weapons at the same time is when you never get the bonus attack. I retract my earlier post.

**nosferatu1001**

DeathReaper wrote:
ToBeWilly wrote:They can choose which to use, the Relic Blade or the Power Weapon/Bolt Pistol combo, but they will never get the extra attack for having a second close combat weapon. See page 42, BRB, second column, under "Two different special weapons". So, it is pointless never to use the Relic Blade and attack at Streangth 6.

That is only true if you are using 2 special CCW's.

If you are using the Power weapon/BP you will get the extra attack.

Nope, but lets not get into that argument again

You have 3 CCW weapons, and have no permission to choose a subset of 2 before reading the rules on page 42. As such, go by the least powerful interpretation, which is the 2 different special CCW one.

**DeathReaper**

The best piece of advice I have is something Yakface wrote:

Yakface wrote:The rules for fighting with two single-handed weapons on page 42 of the rulebook *ONLY* work if you assume that they refer to the combinations that the model is able to choose to utilize in that phase.

Why do I say that?

Because the list of combinations on page 42 of the rulebook is not exhaustive. For example, Marneus Calgar actually has THREE special weapons (two powerfists and a power weapon). Eldrad has two special weapons and one normal close combat weapon.

If you want to try to claim that these rules dictate how the model is forced to make his attacks, then the entire system breaks down because there are no rules for models with 3 special weapons or models with two special weapons and one normal weapon.

The only way the rules function as written is if you assume that the player controlling the model gets to choose which two weapons his model is going to use and then consult the rules for fighting with two single-handed weapons to see how those weapons work together.

So ultimately we have one interpretation in which the rules do not work at all and then we have another interpretation that works just fine. As you can't play with the former why is it worth even arguing about?

**nosferatu1001**

Again, not opening that can of worms

AS you have no permission to take your interpretation, just use the least advantageous, as ever

**Happyjew**

Besides, if you really want to be technical, Calgar only has two weapons: The Gauntlets of Ultrama (which count as 2 Power Fists) and a power weapon. So, he has to choose 1 weapon to use.