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Hey guys I'm adding Telion to my new Ultramarine army and had a question about his Eye of Vengeance rule before I start using him in games.

I did a quick search about this guy but never found an answer that had solid proof behind it and couldn't see him mentioned in the FAQ. It was interesting to see how everyone perceived this rule a little different.

The way I see it is Telions 2 shots follow all the rules for normal wound allocation (I.e. I cant put both shots on the same model) and I would allocate his two shots before the opposing player who then allocates the rest of the sniper squads shots.

Now some players at my local and through some of the forums I searched through had different Ideas:
1. Since there is no mention of Telions priority in placing the wounds, the opponent can allocate first leaving Telion to place his two shots still within the allocation rules (I.e. Avoiding any rending shot been placed on a miniature of significant value).
2. Telion is treated as a second allocation round within the same shooting group, I.e. Opponent places all allocated wounds from the scout unit, then Telion goes through with his own allocation applying a single shot to two miniatures of his choice regardless of whether they have had a wound allocated to them already or not.
3. Telion can place his shots on whoever he likes breaking allocation rules, E.g. I shoot at the the ork boyz and both my shots are allocated against the Nob.


Now 2 and 3 seemed a little far fetched to me but 1 seemed like there was nothing to say it was wrong, nothing to say it was right either. It would make Telion near useless if that was how its done.

Anyway can someone clear this up for me if possible and maybe provide a reference to the answer.

3, I think.

yeah its 3, either before or after all wounds have been alocated he can put his shot/shots on anyone he likes

Nothing lets him ignore the normal wound allocation process, it's just that you get to allocate instead of your enemy. As such, you'd have to do one wound to each member of a squad before you're allowed to "double up".

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Nothing lets him ignore the normal wound allocation process, it's just that you get to allocate instead of your enemy. As such, you'd have to do one wound to each member of a squad before you're allowed to "double up".

Right so do you do it before or after the enemy allocates?

What is the exact wording for Telion's ability?

Wounds caused by Telion (in certain situations, gotta leave some rules out), are allocated by the controlling player, rather than the opposing player.

So you would have to do it before any other wounds, to allow the player to choose where to put them.

@ Insaniak: Does that mean Tellion's player still has to use the wound allocation rules, or can he put multiple wounds on a model before the other wounds are spread around to the rest of the targeted unit?

On consideration, I would think the easiest way to do it would be to just have the owning player allocate as normal, and then the player who owns Telion would just swap Telion's wounds to whichever model/s he chooses.

You would still have to follow the normal rules for allocation, since Telion's entry doesn't say not to... you just get to choose where those specific wounds go.

#1 is the easiest way to do it imho.

5 wounds from the scouts and 2 from Telion on a squad of Guardsmen.

Player controlling Telion chooses to put a wound on the Sergeant and the Melta-gun. IG player then allocates the remaining wounds to the lasgun Guardsmen. Roll saves.

All rules satisfied and the 'spirit' of Telion's rule is also preserved. That's how I would play it.

DoW

"Wounds caused by Tellion are allocated by the controlling player"- RAW, after I wound I say where they are going, I can put both on one model or split the attacks up...

You roll to hit and wound according to the majority of the squads toughness... If you roll a 6 it counts as a rend.

Then you say who you want the wounds to go on. If you got a rend one of those wounds as a rend...

Example I have Big T in a scout squad shooting at a Blood Angel Squad with one of those priests that gives FNP to any friendly model with in 6 inches...

I begin shooting. I wound on a 4+.

I roll to hit and score lets say a 5 and a 6 to wound. I then say both wounds go on the priest with one as a rend because it is a 6. He is dead without a save unless he is in cover. Or I can allocate one wound on the priest (lets say the rend) and another on a Sgt in the squad.

Another example...

I am shooting at a squad of Necron Warriors with a Lord in it... Tellion has 2 shots. I roll to hit.

The Majority of the squad is toughness 4 so I roll 4s to wound. I score two 4s to wound. I say both wounds go on the lord even though he is toughness 5 and wound normally need 5s. This is because the majority of the squad is toughness 4.

Remember he uses a special bolter and not a sniper rifle.


IMHO- He is one of the best SC in the Space Marine Codex. I love him, when he works he works well.

usmcmidn wrote:I roll to hit and score lets say a 5 and a 6 to wound. I then say both wounds go on the priest with one as a rend because it is a 6. He is dead without a save unless he is in cover. Or I can allocate one wound on the priest (lets say the rend) and another on a Sgt in the squad.

The Majority of the squad is toughness 4 so I roll 4s to wound. I score two 4s to wound. I say both wounds go on the lord even though he is toughness 5 and wound normally need 5s. This is because the majority of the squad is toughness 4.

This is not true.

Telions rule allows the controlling player to 'allocate the wounds' not 'allocate the wounds, disregarding all the normal rules for wound allocation'.

You may not place both Telion's wounds on a single model because that breaks the rules for wound allocation, which Telion's rule does not say you may break.

DoW

usmcmidn wrote:"Wounds caused by Tellion are allocated by the controlling player"- RAW, after I wound I say where they are going, I can put both on one model or split the attacks up...

Again, Telion's rules don't say to ignore the normal restrictions on wound allocation. They just hand control of Telion's wounds to the attacking player. So you could only put them both on one model if the rest of the unit's shooting causes sufficient wounds for everyone else to also have a wound.

Thats how the TOs here in Rochester and GW Canada play it.

Thats how I was told to play him. I believe it is correct.

usmcmidn wrote:Thats how the TOs here in Rochester and GW Canada play it.

Thats how I was told to play him. I believe it is correct.

Well, the rules disagree with you.

Maybe show the TO the thread, they can make errors as well, were all human after all.

So no answer really? Just keep playing it this way in the spirit of the game, it seems like the best midway point:

Telions 2 shots follow all the rules for normal wound allocation (I.e. I cant put both shots on the same model) and I would allocate his two shots before the opposing player who then allocates the rest of the sniper squads shots.

vossyvo wrote:So no answer really? Just keep playing it this way in the spirit of the game, it seems like the best midway point:

Telions 2 shots follow all the rules for normal wound allocation (I.e. I cant put both shots on the same model) and I would allocate his two shots before the opposing player who then allocates the rest of the sniper squads shots.

Actually there is an answer.

The answer is:

insaniak wrote:Telion's rules don't say to ignore the normal restrictions on wound allocation.

DeathReaper wrote:

vossyvo wrote:So no answer really? Just keep playing it this way in the spirit of the game, it seems like the best midway point:

Telions 2 shots follow all the rules for normal wound allocation (I.e. I cant put both shots on the same model) and I would allocate his two shots before the opposing player who then allocates the rest of the sniper squads shots.

Actually there is an answer.

The answer is:

insaniak wrote:Telion's rules don't say to ignore the normal restrictions on wound allocation.

Then there is no point of Tellion if this is true. His whole thing is to be able to pick off enemy Sgts or w.e.

I would say something like, resolve all of Telion and his unit's shooting attacks against the unit up until the point of wound allocation, leaving Telion's attacks separate, roll off, the winning player allocates first.

usmcmidn wrote:Then there is no point of Tellion if this is true. His whole thing is to be able to pick off enemy Sgts or w.e.

Which you can still do. You just need to hit the unit with enough shooting all at once if you want to stack more than one wound onto that Sgt or whatever.

Being able to force even one wound onto the Sgt when your opponent could otherwise put it onto a regular trooper is still a bonus.

Yes I agree but I can choose to put the wounds where ever I want.

usmcmidn wrote:Yes I agree but I can choose to put the wounds where ever I want.

Yes, you can, but:

insaniak wrote:You would still have to follow the normal rules for allocation, since Telion's entry doesn't say not to... you just get to choose where those specific wounds go.

you get to choose where the wounds cause by Telion go:

insaniak wrote:So you would have to do it before any other wounds, to allow the player to choose where to put them.

insaniak wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:Then there is no point of Tellion if this is true. His whole thing is to be able to pick off enemy Sgts or w.e.

Which you can still do. You just need to hit the unit with enough shooting all at once if you want to stack more than one wound onto that Sgt or whatever.

Being able to force even one wound onto the Sgt when your opponent could otherwise put it onto a regular trooper is still a bonus.

I disagree with USMCMIDN that you cannot place both wounds on the same mini, there is nothing that suggests, unless the situation insaniak suggested arises.

I'm still a little unsure on you're view here insaniak.

I'll just throw an example out of how I see the rule in action again to clarify.

---------- EXAMPLE ----------
Target Unit = 4 Marines, 1 Sergeant.

So my sniper unit fires with everything in the unit hitting and wounding with 2 non rending sniper shots, 1 missile shot, 1 rending and 1 non-rending shot from Telion.

------- I see it as ----------

I pick up Telions 2 shots, put the rending one on the Sergeant and the non rending on the group of marines. The opponent then allocates the remaining shots to the marines, then rolls saves as required. This is how I would play it.

------- or do you see it as ------------

Opponent picks up the 2 non rending sniper shots, 1 missile shot, He places a non rending sniper shot on the Sergeant (to give him a good chance of survival) then places the rest of the shots on the Marines. I then pick up Telions 2 shots and have no choice where they go since wound allocation makes me put them on the Marine group.

Now the larger the group of marines the more probable this second situation becomes.

They key to this is getting to place a rending shot of Telions if he manages to roll one. If he doesn't it isn't as much of an issue.

I play it the same way as you vossyvo. There would be little point in taking Telion if you cannot allocate a rending shot onto a sergeant/nob whatever. As long as the other rules for wound allocation are not broken then fine.

Allocate Telions shots first by the allocation rules then allow the owning player to allocate any other shooting from your unit so that you have allocated as per Telions rule.

Scenario 2 would mean that you're not actually getting to allocate. I would instead go with the defending player allocating all of the wounds, and then the player who owns Telion switching Telion's wounds with any two other wounds.

Could you just allocate at the same time?

like say this happens:

versus 4 CSM + a champion. The scouts deal 3 bolter wounds, 1 missle, and telion deals 2 rending

he puts a bolter wound a CSM, I put rending on champ,I wait till he puts the other 3 wounds on the CSM and I put the last on the champ..... but then again he could just allocate to the champ first and disallow it, unless the scouts allocate telion's shot first :/, then he allocates 4 on the CSM to even out to one each, then you do last one on champ.....


sorry for being rambly, just woke up a little while ago

I think it is just simpler if you place Telions wounds first as that then allows the opponent to do the usual wound magic to limit his losses, whereas if he allocates and you switch around then it gets messy as that can alter where a missile round goes etc giving you greater scope to allocate the wounds the squad inflicts then just Telions.

I agree Liturgies.

There should be no scope for the opponent to block Telion's allocation by already placing non-rending, lower strength wounds onto ICs, sergeants etc in the squad. The rule does talk about wounds though and not hits and so Telion would be able to allocate after the wounds have been rolled and whether any of these rend. If the normal wounds have already been allocated then these would presumably then be moved within normal wound allocation rules.