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Permission to enter Gents,
I got alot of flak on stormboys. Saying how fast they get killed.
I've come to a conclusion that people use very little tactics?

I mean, you cant just rush em' in.

You need to use cover from the features on the game board/Own models. keep ace cards in your hand till needed (i.e out flanking/Deep Strike).

-Learn that you will loose models, its a part of war.
-Learn always have a few back up plans. your tactical reasoning will change during the course of the battle.
-Learn to Sacrifice models to gain an upper hand when needed.

I dont mind Negative feedback at all. but it seemed to me that tactics are used far and less in between,...

Is it just me?

Seemed to me that you're condemning the entire warhammer playerbase as bad because someone told you a unit was bad.

That's not arrogant or anything.

Stormboyz are suicidal rocket-propelled regular boyz in smaller units that kill themselves when they move around, even outside of active combat or when being totally ignored by the enemy.

They die fast, even if you hide them behind fortifications, just by being stormboyz. Rushing them in is pretty much what they are for- fast moving boyz squad.

Nothing to do with tactics. Be as tactical as you like. They still die fast anyway

Gorgeous models, but a very fragile unit. I love them, but i don't expect them to live long.

Stormboys suck.

Cost 12 pts, can't take any fun weapons, get killed if any MEQ breath at them funny.

You could take 20 of them and they might live to see combat, but, you are paying 240pts (before the nob).

And, since they have jump packs, you could deep strike them, I suppose. But then you have a 20man unit with a large footprint deep striking in a giant clumped up bunch.

Which will then be shot to bits.

Oh, and if you do charge, you'll still be striking after MEQ, since, Hey, with the charge, you are In. 3. Sure, that's a problem for all Orks, but most Orks are 6pts a pop.

The problem that you're seeing is that 40k isn't actually that tactical of a game. The learning curve is very steep, but it's also very short. Unlike chess, which is a game that's easy to learn, and difficult to master, 40k is a game that is difficult to learn and easy to master.

Yes, player skill matters, especially when you're just starting out, but it hits a practical limit pretty fast, especially when you consider that you have an opponent who is actively attempting to undo everything you did with player skill with their own player skill.

With a relatively low ceiling to tactics, it makes non-tactical considerations (such as statlines, upgrade options, and points costs) more important than the useability of any particular unit.

Seemed to me that you're condemning the entire warhammer playerbase as bad because someone told you a unit was bad.

That's not arrogant or anything.

No not at all, i was useing them as an example (should have said that in the first place) **my bad**

I was just bringing up that few seem to use tactics, thats all,...
My Apologies agents.

It isn't just storm boyz. Most jump infantry are weak. Their mobility was more useful in earlier editions when rhinos were a lot more expensive and blew up easier. Now JI just don't compete with cheap metal boxes that give the same movement, a lot more protection, and still let you disembark to shoot, or just do slower drive bys and get your special weapon shots.

Jump Infantry need to be more like Necron Wraiths to be worthwhile. They should get big buffs for the extra points you pay, not standard infantry stats and a rocket pack.

I love the idea of tactics, particularly as they apply to wargaming. Plain and simple is that even rushing forward in a blob is a form of a tactic and will likely even have quite the complications. Movement becomes more intricate as units dance around each other to get their firepower where it needs to be and keep from blocking each other. You face problems of vulnerability to blasts and templates if you stick together, problems to over-extending and finding cover if you spread out to much. All of those problems then play into target priority as you hope to elimitate threats to the weaknesses which you've likely been forced to deal with. Particularly for Orks, rushing en masse is a legitimate strategy and is deceptively more than just going forward your maximum movement towards the nearest enemy. Just saying you're being tactical by deep striking rather than running doesn't really mean much if you don't actually produce good results with them.

Hug cover if you can.
Think about what each unit has to do in the following phases before you do anything with them.
That's it.
There are many armies that CAN just rush in. Pick the weakest point of the enemy and run/jump-pack/drive to them, then assault and keep going.

They also fight for fast slots with koptas and buggys for those ever important tl-rokkits. With everyone in transports being able to hit vehicles that are too quick to catch in melee or bust the vehicle in the shooting phase then charge the contents in the assault phase is very important right now. Not that you can't make them work from time to time, zagstruk is still an excellent way to poop on some long fangs.

For people not being tactical, there's certainly some truth to that. 40k gets compared with mtg a lot for a reason despite being about as different and unrelatable mechanically as 2 games can be. Both are determined most in the pre game list building then by luck and least by the decisions being made during the game. But the same names raise to the top of events consistently for a reason, how you use the list is always important. If you're the guy that figures out how to deliver storm boyz consistently and effectively then you're going to win games, but the general consensus so far is no one else has been able to.

An other issue is that we are talking about the vacuum that is the internet 40k advice. The only thing we can go on is the stat lines and costs of units and nothing else.

The "internet" assumes the following...

1> Your terrain gives all units cover 100% of the time, but none of it blocks LoS.

2> Your opponents are always one of the following: IG MechVets, Grey Knight Purifiers, Ork BattleWagon spam, Space Wolf Lone Fang, and usually one token xeno (usually either Dark Eldar or Necron).

3> Everyone's dice always roll average in every game. EVERY GAME! There is no luck!

4> That one unit we are talking about? Oh they never have cover, they never get put into the right situation, and your opponent ALWAYS already has the perfect counter against them.


That all said, I think Storm Boyz are alright. In my opinion they have the problem of being a good anti-infantry unit in a codex already filled with lots of anti-infantry or other units that do the job better.

Actinium wrote:For people not being tactical, there's certainly some truth to that. 40k gets compared with mtg a lot for a reason despite being about as different and unrelatable mechanically as 2 games can be. Both are determined most in the pre game list building then by luck and least by the decisions being made during the game. But the same names raise to the top of events consistently for a reason, how you use the list is always important. If you're the guy that figures out how to deliver storm boyz consistently and effectively then you're going to win games, but the general consensus so far is no one else has been able to.

I'd say it depends on what you're looking for in tactics. It's a game, it's going to have limitations since you can only work with what you're given. As long as you can accept this there's plenty of tactics on how to use what you're given. The MTG comparison fits here because your tactics come up in how you handle each turn and what the dice give you. It's far less about planning and far more about reacting.

This is largely in contrast to, say, chess which was mentioned earlier. What you lack in 40K is predictability. Units can move anywhere on the board and any distance up to their maximum. 6", 3", 2.43542" and in any direction N34'E, N76'W, S12'34"E or what have you. In chess units can move in set directions and in set distances, you can relatively easily plan out every possible move for any given turn. Not true for 40K where there are literally infinite movements. In chess units also have set interactions, if that Rook moves into your Pawn then you've lost a pawn. Again not true for 40K, there's always a slim chance that Pawn might kill the Rook. When any sort of random element is added you immediately forfeit a tactical aspect of your game, and 40K has many random elements. But then that goes back to the beginning, it's a game. Random elements, infinite choices, they make the game fun even if it's not a circle-jerk of people pretending to be brilliant military commanders.

drunkorc wrote:Permission to enter Gents,
I got alot of flak on stormboys. Saying how fast they get killed.
I've come to a conclusion that people use very little tactics?

I mean, you cant just rush em' in.

You need to use cover from the features on the game board/Own models. keep ace cards in your hand till needed (i.e out flanking/Deep Strike).

-Learn that you will loose models, its a part of war.
-Learn always have a few back up plans. your tactical reasoning will change during the course of the battle.
-Learn to Sacrifice models to gain an upper hand when needed.

I dont mind Negative feedback at all. but it seemed to me that tactics are used far and less in between,...

Is it just me?

I hear you! I hear you! Although I think of your points in a slightly different wordset-
-See this model here? A future corpse. See this vehicle here? A future wreck/crater. See this squad? Future corpses. See this blob of 50 guardsmangs? 50 future corpses. They will all be corpses, so try to get as much out of them as you can before they become daed
-The ultimate backup plan is to have no plan!...sort of?
-Sometimes your future corpse needs to become a present corpse to win the game. Yes your prized hero that you spent months painting just got crushed by a carnifex- but at least he qualified for valhalla ...anyone?

I wonder though how you keep ace cards like outflanking and deepstriking in your hand. You know, when at the start of the game... you kind of have to tell the opponent your holding stuff in reserve and its DS/OF'ing...

The positioning of your army relative to their army and its composition in addition to the use of DS guiding wargear/rules that give you reliable outflank (snikrot, wolf scouts) can combine together to present many possible viable options for your reinforcements, therefore giving your opponent a conundrum of where your forces will appear, is an ace card in your hand.

drunkorc wrote:Permission to enter Gents,
I got alot of flak on stormboys. Saying how fast they get killed.
I've come to a conclusion that people use very little tactics?

I mean, you cant just rush em' in.

You need to use cover from the features on the game board/Own models.

Although I must question this. You say people use little tactics because Stormboyz are a fragile unit? and you assume people are rushing in and not using cover? Remember, this is the internet- one of the golden fallacies we entertain here is "EVERYTHING HAS COVER"

You can move behind that wall, but whats stopping ME from moving around the wall and blasting you into a fine green mist You seem to assume I am utterly static and 1) incapable of denying a cover save and 2) incapable of fielding fast flame weaponry, and even worse 3) assuming that I'm not going to take these things!

Stormboyz aren't terrible...but they aren't terribly good either, sadly =\

Proxy them and test them. Do you like the unit? Good, go ahead and use them. It's the player's job to know how to use their models, Internet advice like SirRouga said is extremely one dimensional.

For me, Stormboyz occupy the same role as Trukk boyz - either quick power klaw delivery, or blocking LOS through futile hand to hand. It doesn't matter so much that they kill things as that they get there before da boyz and block line of sight for a turn by charging something (or, if you're lucky, they land some power klaw hits on something that makes a difference). Either way I agree that they're basically going to die, but as long as they make sure something else gets to the enemy, they've done their job.

I'd like to try Stormboyz, but I rarely like to give up any of the Fast Attack slots that I usually fill with buggies or koptas. Something I would like to do is use them in a Planetstrike list, where they can assault after deep strike and the attacking player gets 6 Fast Attack slots. That changes their usefulness in a pretty big way.

Now if only we could use them like the game Space Marine does, to take down Valkyries in flight by ork-striking the engines...

"No battle plans survives contact with the enemy." - German military strategist Helmuth von Moltke.

Its true, knowing your units, and what you intend to do with them is all well and good, but you need to be able to adapt to what your enemy is doing.
If you know Tau, you take deep striking units, and try to get into their faces in melee.

The point is, elaborate plans get too complicated to successfully pull out, a simple plan, which will be able to adapt, will be more successful.

Isn't a valk's rear armor 10?

...Isn't an ork S4 on the charge?

Jihallah wrote:Isn't a valk's rear armor 10?

...Isn't an ork S4 on the charge?

Wait a minute, wait a minute! I think we're on to something here!

Ascalam wrote:Now if only we could use them like the game Space Marine does, to take down Valkyries in flight by ork-striking the engines...

^I'm refering to this

The potential to go 18 inches and still assault is pretty freaking cool. However, 12 stormboyz are expensive compared to normal trukk boyz who almost do the exact same thing with more protection.

152 points for trukk boyz with nob pk/bp

184 points for 12 stormboyz with nob pk/bp

32 point difference, I think that is a little too much for a unit that isn't that much different than the other unit that does the same job. And we all know that turkk boyz can't go in alone right?

LET'S PUT 20 ORKS IN A BATTLEWAGON

291 points for 20 orks with nob pk/bp in a battlewagon with deff rolla/big shoota/armour plates.

Now a squad of 20 Stormboyz.

280 points for 20 stormboyz with nob pk/bp.

Now before you go AH HA! Yes, it's cheaper, and you can possibly have longer ranger if you don't roll a 1. But you have 20 boyz with a Nob pk/bk sitting in an armored vehicle of F14 and S12 with a weapon that the potential to have 6 strength ten hits.

Stormboyz aren't bad, there are just units that are better than them. In fact stormboyz are fun and the ork codex is full of units that just considered fun units. I plan to pick up storm boyz and use them for fun. Don't insult me by saying I am bad tactician because I would rather use something else than stormboyz. Yes I will lose models but that doesn't mean I shouldn't find a way to minimize it. And stormboyz are pretty expensive to be just sacrificed.

SirRouga wrote:An other issue is that we are talking about the vacuum that is the internet 40k advice. The only thing we can go on is the stat lines and costs of units and nothing else.

The "internet" assumes the following...

1> Your terrain gives all units cover 100% of the time, but none of it blocks LoS.

2> Your opponents are always one of the following: IG MechVets, Grey Knight Purifiers, Ork BattleWagon spam, Space Wolf Lone Fang, and usually one token xeno (usually either Dark Eldar or Necron).

3> Everyone's dice always roll average in every game. EVERY GAME! There is no luck!

4> That one unit we are talking about? Oh they never have cover, they never get put into the right situation, and your opponent ALWAYS already has the perfect counter against them.


That all said, I think Storm Boyz are alright. In my opinion they have the problem of being a good anti-infantry unit in a codex already filled with lots of anti-infantry or other units that do the job better.

i like your moves. hit the nail through the wood, when i started a couple months ago i was drooling over advice from everyone on the intra, after learning that everyone just advises the same units and the ones you thought were cool sucked, i shyed away from it. not everyone knows how to, or is comfortable with certain lists and builds. my main tactics are fields of fire, avenues of aproach and having 3x as many dice as you and oh yeah LUCK. im not one of those top players in the world like was mentioned, and i think it comes down to, yes, you have to know how to use your army. know how to counter your opponent, use your strengths and protect your weeknesses and hope for good rolls.

back to the OP, ive seen stormboyz and other jumps used, and although they are cool looking and the thought is that they should be good, i have yet to see the majority be successful especially when deep striking. if they are an all assault unit you would think that they would be better at that than a regular joe. how is an assault marine the same stat line as a tactical marine? sure the points discrepency is pretty equal, so your paying low for a jump pack and having a pistol and ccw, but they should have base 2 attacks and at least furious charge. thats what they are there for. im starting to rant.............

Sovspot wrote:The potential to go 18 inches and still assault is pretty freaking cool. However, 12 stormboyz are expensive compared to normal trukk boyz who almost do the exact same thing with more protection.

But, JI go 'as the crow flies', not around terrain and units.
No difficult terrain checks, or staying 1" from enemy units as they go.
They can pop out of cover and still go full distance.
A Trukk or Battlewagon IS cover, until it is blown up. Watch those Boyz walk to their target then...

Skinnereal wrote:

Sovspot wrote:The potential to go 18 inches and still assault is pretty freaking cool. However, 12 stormboyz are expensive compared to normal trukk boyz who almost do the exact same thing with more protection.

But, JI go 'as the crow flies', not around terrain and units.
No difficult terrain checks, or staying 1" from enemy units as they go.
They can pop out of cover and still go full distance.
A Trukk or Battlewagon IS cover, until it is blown up. Watch those Boyz walk to their target then...

I have no idea what "JI" is so...

With reinforced ram or deff rolla dangerous terrain checks are almost a non-issue. And you still have to be able to blow it up, and it sucks when it does blow up. But it's not as bad as rolling a 1 then losing a model and special ability to go farther becomes a sigh. Then you get shot up by everything else because you didnt go as far as you wanted too. You moved 13 inches big woop your battlewagon brothers are right next to and you are trukk buddies are in front of you.

I will take my chances in my glorified buss.

I'd not seen it before, but JI is jump infantry.

Stormboys are good for one thing and one thing only and that is protecting Zagstruck. With Zagstruck you deepstike and then assault if in range. When Zagstruck assaults he has 6 S9 power weapon attacks at I4. Perfect for taking out that predator/devestator squad etc sitting in the back blowing stuff up. My brother uses him quite effectively most of the time. The only downside is you have to deepstrike.

The back and forth on a unit sucking or not sucking makes no sense to me. The UNIT isn't really the issue. Stormboyz are great in the list that NEEDS them and supports them. The unit, and most units, aren't inherently good or bad. Even when they seem a tad expensive thats still okay IF they fit the plan. Also, a certain level of risk is involved in using stormboyz to their maximum potential. Your stomach for risk definitely factors in.

For example, I'd happily jump 20 stormboyz into a forest. I wouldn't even question it. So I lose 3 guys with a possibility of more (or less if scatter moves me out of it). Here's the thing though: I might lose them anyways coming across the board or getting shot after they drop, so who cares how I lose a few? The big thing is, they will take fewer casualties overall and the enemy is weaker when the stormies show up. I'd do it. Some would NEVER risk that. Doing it can provide an intense flank threat, especially when Snikrot shows up too to slam the door with them or after them. There's synergy there but it takes a stomach for risk some people just dont have.

But some do. I know a lot of bold 40Kers who play to win instead of playing not to lose. I am one. I think tactics is alive and well and I think 6E is going to inspire players to think like crazy. Should be fun to see what 40K looks like whern all the experts are "made noob" again. Good times.

Jancoran wrote:The back and forth on a unit sucking or not sucking makes no sense to me. The UNIT isn't really the issue. Stormboyz are great in the list that NEEDS them and supports them. The unit, and most units, aren't inherently good or bad. Even when they seem a tad expensive thats still okay IF they fit the plan. Also, a certain level of risk is involved in using stormboyz to their maximum potential. Your stomach for risk definitely factors in.

For example, I'd happily jump 20 stormboyz into a forest. I wouldn't even question it. So I lose 3 guys with a possibility of more (or less if scatter moves me out of it). Here's the thing though: I might lose them anyways coming across the board or getting shot after they drop, so who cares how I lose a few? The big thing is, they will take fewer casualties overall and the enemy is weaker when the stormies show up. I'd do it. Some would NEVER risk that. Doing it can provide an intense flank threat, especially when Snikrot shows up too to slam the door with them or after them. There's synergy there but it takes a stomach for risk some people just dont have.

But some do. I know a lot of bold 40Kers who play to win instead of playing not to lose. I am one. I think tactics is alive and well and I think 6E is going to inspire players to think like crazy. Should be fun to see what 40K looks like whern all the experts are "made noob" again. Good times.

Where has this guy been all this time? I agree. feth sake people, stop being a bunch of damn panzys and only taking units that the internet deems awesome, and shunning any units that the interest deems useless. Your all idiots if you play that way, dull, BLAND, idiots! Think out side the box, use every unit in your codex, infact use them many times over, youll start seeing that every unit DOES have a place somewhere. Running the same fething Kan wall list, or the same BW formation is boring as hell. Not only boring, but easy for your opponents to figure out how to beat you. If your wall list is tight and your good with it, and win often, then your pals will goto the internet and tailor a list to beat you, then what? Most of you on here, will continue to use the same friggin list and pray they will over come....and they wont. So be ballsy, be creative, and FFS get something different.


No, Stormboyz DONT suck when used correctly Crazyterran. I find it funny you think they are terrible against a Space Marine. Would you say 19 boyz +nob suck against Space Marines as well? No? How odd, because they are the same fething thing, but one has cooler gifts. Theres a couple ways you actually use them. You can keep them behind other units of boyz/nobz and jump into combat to either add more umph, or to just crush a unit out right. Or you stick Zaggstruk in there, and drop into a combat from nowhere. Yes they are pricey, but what specialty unit isnt?

Ailaros wrote:The problem that you're seeing is that 40k isn't actually that tactical of a game. The learning curve is very steep, but it's also very short. Unlike chess, which is a game that's easy to learn, and difficult to master, 40k is a game that is difficult to learn and easy to master.

Yes, player skill matters, especially when you're just starting out, but it hits a practical limit pretty fast, especially when you consider that you have an opponent who is actively attempting to undo everything you did with player skill with their own player skill.

With a relatively low ceiling to tactics, it makes non-tactical considerations (such as statlines, upgrade options, and points costs) more important than the useability of any particular unit.

I hate to be that guy, but I like your input on this forum Ailaros and you're generally a cut above when it comes to giving your thoughts.

So I'm a little curious if you've ever given Warmachine a go? I've been into starting that recently and I find if someone is looking for a tabletop game that exercises the brain matter a little more, it's quite refreshing. Actually makes me miss regular competitive chess games a bit.

Literally anyone who has a few Dreadnought/Wraithlord base sized models, a few Terminators, and any small based HQ can try it out to see the level of tactical thought and strategy required to play it well. Whereas you're quite right, 40k is really currently dominated by non-tactical considerations, sadly.

http://privateerpress.com/files/WarmachineMKII%20Quick%20Start%20Rules%20Front.pdf
http://privateerpress.com/files/Warmachine%20MKII%20Quick%20Start%20Rules%20Back.pdf

SirRouga wrote:An other issue is that we are talking about the vacuum that is the internet 40k advice. The only thing we can go on is the stat lines and costs of units and nothing else.

The "internet" assumes the following...

1> Your terrain gives all units cover 100% of the time, but none of it blocks LoS.

2> Your opponents are always one of the following: IG MechVets, Grey Knight Purifiers, Ork BattleWagon spam, Space Wolf Lone Fang, and usually one token xeno (usually either Dark Eldar or Necron).

3> Everyone's dice always roll average in every game. EVERY GAME! There is no luck!

4> That one unit we are talking about? Oh they never have cover, they never get put into the right situation, and your opponent ALWAYS already has the perfect counter against them.
.

This really made me laugh, rings so true. Especially #3 - the internet refuses to recognise any sort of binomial distribution.