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SirRouga wrote:1> Your terrain gives all units cover 100% of the time, but none of it blocks LoS.

Based on many of the batreps posted with pictures, the lack of LOS blocking terrain is pretty prevalent.
And cover is relatively easy to get for most units out there.

2> Your opponents are always one of the following: IG MechVets, Grey Knight Purifiers, Ork BattleWagon spam, Space Wolf Lone Fang, and usually one token xeno (usually either Dark Eldar or Necron).

Because you should plan for the worst - and those are some of the toughest lists out there.

3> Everyone's dice always roll average in every game. EVERY GAME! There is no luck!

Yeah, planning on luck will get you places. Good idea there.
No, you should plan on average results.

4> That one unit we are talking about? Oh they never have cover, they never get put into the right situation, and your opponent ALWAYS already has the perfect counter against them.

Not sure where you're getting this from, but ... okay.


That all said, I think Storm Boyz are alright. In my opinion they have the problem of being a good anti-infantry unit in a codex already filled with lots of anti-infantry or other units that do the job better.

Ok so I am gonna jump on the stormboyz wagon here for a second, Orks are Orky, they do random stuff that is Orky, and Orky things happen, I run Stormboyz quite a bit and usually just run them around the board and they absorb alot of fire because turn 1 bam. turn 2 bam and they are on you just about anywhere on the board, take 2 units and enjoy the ork crash and burn, don't forget the extra inch, and get your ORK ON! Remember its just a game, and the great thing about Orks is using crazy Ork tactics! which is ummmmmm lemme see...... CHARGE!!!!!

Ceramice is right.

20 Stormboyz and Zagstrug is a goddamn beatstick. Pop 'em in, and watch the fur fly.

Chowderhead wrote:Ceramice is right.

20 Stormboyz and Zagstrug is a goddamn beatstick. Pop 'em in, and watch the fur fly.

Yep, I agree zaggy and boyz can hurt, but I just can't justify the price tag. 12 points for "just another ork" is a bit absurd, it's the same reasoning people don't take flash gitz, yes, they can be pretty cool and catch your opponent offguard, but it's a shooty unit that you had to pay a premium for because it came with a nob stat line (and an aside on that, they compete with a very deep HA slot). Codex is in my car so I can't get the exact value, but I'm pretty sure I can take a unit of boyz with nob/klaw in a wagon with rolla, etc for roughly the same price (I think a little cheaper). FOR ME, the wagon is a more tactically viable unit, I've proxied stormies a couple times, and when their DS lands within charge distance they can tear stuff up (mostly just zaggy), but they usually end up getting obliterated, and that 250+ point unit maybe took out a (being generous) 200 point tank hiding in the back. Whereas with my wagon boyz, I have my mobile bus with a *scoring* unit inside that is almost as mobile, and MUCH more resilient.

Trust me, I love the stormboyz models, and I still plan on buying enough to make a unit of 20 with zaggy to paint and use, but seeing someone claim "they're more tactical" is a little ridiculous, they are tactical, but just because someone opts for the more "internet friendly" list doesn't mean they're less tactical, or boring. As far as the person who said people should mix things up, that's why there's so many different ork builds it's amazing. I can run speed freaks, wagon rush, green tide, kan wall, or dread bash depending on my mood, though I generally opt for a hybrid of the wagon rush. Most people would look at those and cry "too normal," but for a dex that's been out as long as ours has, you're going to be hard pressed to find a build that hasn't been done before.

Oh, and just another random thought, I tend to run 3 koptas with rokkits/saws as three unique units, I imagine the more pertinent reason people avoid stormboyz is the competition between the FA slots, with the meched up world of today, all those TL rokkits from buggies/koptas are nice.

Just my 2 cents.

It was a joke post rigeld2 and a funny one, but to pull you up on

rigeld2 wrote:
No, you should plan on average results.

I've got to say you should understand the average result, but the best generals plan for the worst and prepare to be surprised.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:It was a joke post rigeld2 and a funny one, but to pull you up on

rigeld2 wrote:
No, you should plan on average results.

I've got to say you should understand the average result, but the best generals plan for the worst and prepare to be surprised.

That's what I meant - poor wording on my part.

I bought stormboyz after I proxied them and they did me proud. Of course, the moment that I owned the models then they did garbage. I never got around to painting them up, partially because I was intimidated by how much surface detail they all have.

They suffer from dying insanely fast. I tried ten with Zagstruk, and found that they need to kill their target unit in one go, or else they will linger in combat for turn after turn, slowly losing boyz, due to lacking the claw. Having just ten with the nob meant that they needed to cover the table, and they simply didn't get anywhere before stormbolters and frag missiles put them down. It could be said that they soaked up fire, but frankly I've got ork boyz and gretchin for that. The worst was when I charged them, untouched by even the suggestion of enemy fire, into a squad of Seraphim, and bounced; they suffer the same problem as Ork Boyz, in that they don't do much against marine armour unless you have loads, and you are relying upon the Nob to do the heavy lifting. The stormboyz mob I have is 160 points, just shy of one of my 20-strong foot-slogging mobz, and it is hard to convince myself to fit that into a list when I typically book a 500-point nob, mek and battlewagon combination in as my centre-piece. Especially when that is the price for my beloved unit of 5 warbikers, who do basically the same thing but with far more resilience, and can glance rhinos to death into the bargain.

But, leaving aside my complaining, they do have some advantages: they are very fast, and if you can keep them hidden would make for an excellent counter-charge unit; that same speed is good for getting to devastator-equivalents or MBTs so as to stop them shooting; the models are amazing, and exude character. Also, no opponent has ever failed to be delighted by them, including their ability to score the first blood in Dawn of War just by entering the table. This thread has made me feel guilty about not using them, so maybe I'll break them out again and go huntin'.

The only real issue with Storm Boyz is the same issue as everything else in the codex, namely: Can this unit accomplish something that an equal number of points of just Boyz can (since Boyz are already awesome and Troops)?

For Storm Boyz, the answer is "sometimes". For the internet, anything less than "always" usually gets damned to worthlessness, even though "sometimes" can be good enough.

drunkorc wrote:I dont mind Negative feedback at all. but it seemed to me that tactics are used far and less in between,... Is it just me?

I think that really depends where you play.

If your playing at your FLGS with some guys over beer and pizza, don't be surprised if you don't see a whole lot of tactics used. There is a lot to be said about pushing models to the center of the board and having em duke it out. When you hanging out with your buddies and just want to goof off the game is a conduit for the social aspect of hanging out -- and who cares what happens to the board?

If your playing at a competitive tournament such as the Feast of Blades, NOVA, or Adeptecon you will see a very different style of play. Your not playing with your buddy, but instead with someone who has possibly traveled for hundreds of miles to play. These guys are good -- and you will see lots of tactics/strategy used in those games.

Of course, that's less of a case once you get past the first few rounds to the guys in the middle tables. When they have no chance of winning the tourney, its easy to go back to getting drunk and watching models fall over.

I.e. I have a friend that plays Space Wolfs for 10 years. He is always reacting rather than acting. with no upper hand, he looses the game.

When he does act, and gets shot up... he backs away, and gets cornered. Same result as above.

Other games he rushes out with his scouts, and tac squads,... (why he does this is beyond me) The enemy turns all the guns at em' and he gets shot up. Same result as above.

He sold his army because he had "No tactics", You do need some form of strategy....

I like this saying,... If you give a poor commander with a Grand force, he will stand a poor chance at winning, If you Have Grand Commander with a Poor Force he stands a Grand chance at Winning.

Granted this game is played with dice, but you will need alot of Luck, if your gamming with no Tactics.

labmouse42

Yes, at Turnies they DO use Tactics, And yes beer does help and yes, some people can game when drinking. just have to pace yer self
Im not saying that i always win,.. but tactics does help. regardless where you play
mind you, i get Tanked when playing me Dwarfs, and they almost always win

Im just saying "Tactics are important with a tabletop strategy game."
regarless if you have a beer, long island iced tea, ice tea, soda, juice in your hand....

This thread is not about stormboys, its about an Army as a Whole. I think of an Army as a body. each troop/squad/model is a part of the body, you need to use the whole body. counter charging, support fire,.. etc... etc...

drunkorc wrote:

He sold his army because he had "No tactics", You do need some form of strategy....

People play the game for different reasons. Being a game, it is usually played for fun. Just because you don't win all the time does not mean you cannot have fun. If you lose but you have fun, you have won. If you win but have no fun, you have already lost.

I like this saying,... If you give a poor commander with a Grand force, he will stand a poor chance at winning, If you Have Grand Commander with a Poor Force he stands a Grand chance at Winning.

Historically, that is more false than true. But people tend to remember the grand few examples where it is true, because it is so spectacular when it does happen, and therefore memorable. In most cases, materiel considerations and sheer chance tend to play a bigger role than individual ability and personal perseverance. Clausewitz's and Jomini's voluntarisms are fun to read but practically naive.

Regarding 40k, I see two big groups of players - the competitive and recreational. They are very different in motivations and practices. The competitive squeeze out all rules for all their worth, have a ton of experience, and play superlists well, so they mop the floor with anybody else. The recreational are usually model-limited, like to paint instead, and play badly some wonky lists that only make sense to them. The first group uses strategy and cheese, the second one tries to make a story and enjoy the hobby. Neither is particularly "tactical' in the sense used in this thread, because neither group needs to do much thinking on their feet.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want to shake things up and get people thinking, you need to change the rules, so that tried and true combos no longer work.

That is where strange league rules and changing scales in the FLGS can help a lot. Impose percentiles on army composition, change the usual scale of battle, play games with unusual terrain, limit total AV values, etc., and things can get exciting again.

Necrontyr40k, i like you sir. you have some good points.

would be an honor to game with you sometime.

For shaking things up a bit, Death Worlds are great! and fun
with them rules, things get thrown around a bit

KingCracker,you got alot of good points too.

wish i could make it to Dakkacon. but as i said before i got to take care of my father. but if he ever gets better, sometime i'd like to game with you lot.

Alot of good thinkers here, enough to keep Einstein on his toes.

KingCracker wrote:

Jancoran wrote: But some do. I know a lot of bold 40Kers who play to win instead of playing not to lose. I am one. I think tactics is alive and well and I think 6E is going to inspire players to think like crazy. Should be fun to see what 40K looks like whern all the experts are "made noob" again. Good times.

Where has this guy been all this time? I agree. feth sake people, stop being a bunch of damn panzys and only taking units that the internet deems awesome, and shunning any units that the interest deems useless.

Well if you feel that way i think you'd REALLY like my blog. Hehehe.

What's going to happen is, people who know everything go to zero wit hthe rest of everyone else when 6E comes out, and inevitably it will do so with the Codex FAQ's all simultaneously updated like 8th Edition Fantasy did, so that they are all playable in current form with some changes.

So much of what we feel passionately right now as far as what works and what doesn't will soon change. I was VERY excited by the way the rules were done in 8th Edition Fantasy but hate the actual rules themselves. i really hope they do the same BAD ASS job on the rules presentation, and avoid being idiotic in the rules themselves. I just give them so much props for their presentation of 8th edition. Steadfast, horde rule and a few other things really ruined 8th, but wow, so many less rules questions and arguments!

So here's to clarity and a clear path to victory for all armies!

Storm boyz aren't bad, they are just overcosted in the current game, just like most jump infantry. They come stock with grenades that are useless most of the time (why couldn't they be krak grenades instead, or count as both). In this edition if jump infantry and bikes could outflank you would see them used much more people using the units and the points cost be justified, but possibly game unbalancing because of the threat range (but then there are fliers that can do this). The game took a shift to where they gave the slower armies some of the fastest transports in the game, which made many units less effective, and on the verge of being useless (as many people say about storm boyz). There are a few armies where storm boyz would do well in:
1. Battlewagon's that block los for the storm boyz, on the assault turn you get more orks into the fray.
2. Ork armies with no vehicles: kommandos storm boyz and a horde of greenskins.
3. Trukk spam: mobile cover again, and an army so fast the storm boyz aren't the largest threat.

The size needed for them to be effective limits them to larger games, but the drawback at larger games is that they can more easily be focus fired off the board.

DarknessEternal wrote:The only real issue with Storm Boyz is the same issue as everything else in the codex, namely: Can this unit accomplish something that an equal number of points of just Boyz can (since Boyz are already awesome and Troops)?

For Storm Boyz, the answer is "sometimes". For the internet, anything less than "always" usually gets damned to worthlessness, even though "sometimes" can be good enough.

One of the reasons for this is that by taking Stormboys over basic boys, you give up the ability to score.

One of the basic rules of fifth edition army construction is that only Troops are allowed to be generalists. Everything else needs to add a lot of either offense or support to be worth taking.

Stormboys add neither. In 4th edition, when both units could score... sure. Pay a few more points for mobility. Now? You pay more for mobility, and give up the ability to score.

Also, Stormboys also, like most 4th edition units, carry the price penalty for being able to hide behind area terrain.

Polonius wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:The only real issue with Storm Boyz is the same issue as everything else in the codex, namely: Can this unit accomplish something that an equal number of points of just Boyz can (since Boyz are already awesome and Troops)?

For Storm Boyz, the answer is "sometimes". For the internet, anything less than "always" usually gets damned to worthlessness, even though "sometimes" can be good enough.

One of the reasons for this is that by taking Stormboys over basic boys, you give up the ability to score.

One of the basic rules of fifth edition army construction is that only Troops are allowed to be generalists. Everything else needs to add a lot of either offense or support to be worth taking.

Stormboys add neither. In 4th edition, when both units could score... sure. Pay a few more points for mobility. Now? You pay more for mobility, and give up the ability to score.

Also, Stormboys also, like most 4th edition units, carry the price penalty for being able to hide behind area terrain.

Well the bigger problem with this line of thinking, is your comparing why stromboyz arnt so good.....with BOYZ! Who does that? Oh so they suck because boyz can score?...............ok. Boyz are a troop choice, Stormboyz are a Fast Attack, therefore youd be an idiot to compare the 2. So you compare them with OTHER FAST ATTACK SLOTS!!!!! And to keep it even easier, take away any Fast Attack that has an armor value, so buggies are out. That leaves you with
Warbikers
Deffkoptas
Stormboyz.
NOW you can compare those units to one another and what they do/how they work.
Warbikers - are just boyz on bikes. They get a 4+ save/cover save, and those nice Dakkaguns. They move like other bikes, so they are pretty quick when they need to be.
Deffkoptas - Are as fast as a jet bike, ignore cover while moving, get a nice cover save for flat out, get nice upgrades and the biggest draw, they scout.
Stormboyz - Move like assault troops comes in big numbers and with Zaggstruk can DS into assault.

The cons?
Warbikers - Pricey, and SUCK in CC.
Deffkoptas - Basically a 1 trick pony, suicide squad, and pricey.
Stormboyz - Easy to kill, CAN lose numbers when moving

There ya go. No they ARE NOT pricey, they are a solid price point for what you get. You just have to use them correctly (like everything really) and they can do some real damage. Ive heard people take koptas, Snikrot + crew AND stormboyz with Zaggstruk and REALLY surprised enemies with all the crazy DS/Scouting/ambushing going on (potentially of course) Just remember, the rule of thumb with Stormboyz, kindda like warbikers, you dont jump into CC right away (unless using Zaggy of course) you let them hang back and wait for the right assasult to jump into.

If you are using stormboys, I say the best thing is to drop them with Zagstruk. I found that it is very funny when he charges on the deepstrike and immediatly gets those PK attacks on the enemy's support in his deployment. Since it is true that they are a suicide-squad, I like them taking out the long-range guns before they die.

KingCracker wrote:


Well the bigger problem with this line of thinking, is your comparing why stromboyz arnt so good.....with BOYZ! Who does that? Oh so they suck because boyz can score?...............ok. Boyz are a troop choice, Stormboyz are a Fast Attack, therefore youd be an idiot to compare the 2. So you compare them with OTHER FAST ATTACK SLOTS!!!!! And to keep it even easier, take away any Fast Attack that has an armor value, so buggies are out. That leaves you with

NOW you can compare those units to one another and what they do/how they work.
Warbikers - are just boyz on bikes. They get a 4+ save/cover save, and those nice Dakkaguns. They move like other bikes, so they are pretty quick when they need to be.
Deffkoptas - Are as fast as a jet bike, ignore cover while moving, get a nice cover save for flat out, get nice upgrades and the biggest draw, they scout.
Stormboyz - Move like assault troops comes in big numbers and with Zaggstruk can DS into assault.

The cons?
Warbikers - Pricey, and SUCK in CC.
Deffkoptas - Basically a 1 trick pony, suicide squad, and pricey.
Stormboyz - Easy to kill, CAN lose numbers when moving

There ya go. No they ARE NOT pricey, they are a solid price point for what you get. You just have to use them correctly (like everything really) and they can do some real damage. Ive heard people take koptas, Snikrot + crew AND stormboyz with Zaggstruk and REALLY surprised enemies with all the crazy DS/Scouting/ambushing going on (potentially of course) Just remember, the rule of thumb with Stormboyz, kindda like warbikers, you dont jump into CC right away (unless using Zaggy of course) you let them hang back and wait for the right assasult to jump into.

I am going to say that storm boyz are pricey, and you can compare two units that fill the same role in different force slots. A squad of boyz in a trukk is similar in functionality to a squad of storm boyz. I compare most everything in the ork codex to another choice based on how comparable they are to regular orks, or how much survivability they add to the boyz. I compare and ask would i rather have 15 storm boyz or 30 more boyz with a pk, what will get more done. For a storm boy I am paying for 2 boyz, If 12 of the boyz get to the opponent I feel that they 'cost' the same as those 12 storm boyz if they get there unscratched.

If you want to compare fast attack across the board, then go by role and what the army is lacking:
buggies and koptas usually fit the same role or antitank
bikes have twin linked big shootas and are infantry assault support,
storm boyz are assault troops in an army where every unit is an assault troop.

When I compare storm boyz I don't throw zagstruck into the equation, but when he is thrown in many things change because of his I4 powerklaw and charge rules. To look at individual storm boyz you are paying 6 points for assault grenades, fleet of foot, and the jump infantry rules. Their speed advantage is not as much of an advantage because or the oversaturation of vehicles in the current game. To compare bikes to storm boyz more in detail:

Bikes cost as much as 2 storm boyz. They gain 1 T, a twin linked big shoota, a 4+ cover save, turboboost and are just as effective in CC as any other ork, except there are half as many if noone gets shot up on the way in.
Storm boyz have twice as many boyz as a bike squad with less firepower, twice the attacks, but significantly less survivability. They have the option to take a character to let them assault the turn they deepstrike which is interesting, and does provide awesome tactical uses. However, there is a chance that they will not come in when needed.

This comparison puts bikes and storm boyz as the closest two in the comparison because deffkoptas fulfill an anti tank role usually where bikes and storm boyz fill an anti infantry role. I do agree that storm boyz are a unit that has to hang out in the backfield for a turn or two before the boyz get close enough (which makes them great for dealing with outflanking units in reesrves).

just as effective in CC as any other ork, except there are half as many

Really? Your going to say bikes are just as good in CC, with half the numbers? I think your trying to make your point without really thinking about it. Orks are ONLY good/decent in CC because of their numbers, full stop. Without the numbers, your praying to the dice gods that your opponents will roll 1s and your rolling 6s. No, bikes are NOT good in CC, the cost and lack of numbers screws them horribly in that department. So your left with a Bigshoota platform, that costs 25pts.....thats a lot of points for a quick moving Bigshoota.

And to further show why you CANNOT compare 1 unit from one slot with another. Again, just because the stormboyz....have boyz.....doesnt mean your then allowed to compare the two, its just not how you do it, I dont care HOW you try to convince yourself. Boyz and stormboyz have totally different uses. Boyz are for tying up units, taking objectives and soaking up wounds for the Nob. Stormboyz are for jumping into assaults and using their numbers to push the assault into your favor. Thats it. Sure, you usually use them in conjunction with boyz I.E. boyz assault, and then you jump your stormboyz in to push the enemy unit over the edge. So no, you cannot compare them, again, its stupid to.

AND like I was saying before, just because all these units are in the same slot, doesnt mean you should compare them ALL together. Yes everything in Fast Attack is fast, should you compare them all to one another? No. Why? Because AGAIN, they all do different rolls. Deffkoptas and Rokkit Buggies make sense to compare, why shouldnt you compare them to bikes? They all move like a vehicle. Well koptas and buggies are used for quick strikes and popping vehicles, bikes are not, neither can stormboyz. Can you compare stormboyz with koptas? Id say sure, because they can both do quick assaults. Boyz and buggies? Nope, ones a vehicle and used for its gun. Are you getting it yet? It should come down to, do I want a kopta or rokkit buggies? Do I want Stormboyz or bikes? They all have their own reasons for being there, and none of them have gak to do with boyz.

KC, they have different uses, but just being in different slots doesn't preclude comparisons. If I'm building an Ork list, I have a finite number of points to spend. Obviously I need to spend some on two Troops and an HQ, then more points are discretionary. Boyz are such a great deal for their cost that any other HtH unit in the army tends to suffer by comparison to the "just take more Boyz" option. Yes, Boyz aren't as fast as Stormboyz, but they Score. Those are two major qualitative differences between the two, but in HtH the Boyz are just better, as you get basically the same stats for half the cost. The question is whether you really need /can really get a benefit out of the speed of the stormboyz in a given list, and whether that benefit outweighs the benefits of having another scoring unit with twice as many models in it.

No, I still say you cant compare the two, for, probably the 5th time. Yes, boyz can and do assault, and yes Stomrboyz assault, but thats where the comparisons end. Because they have different roles. Should I compare Rokkit buggies with a Battle Wagon? Sure, according you guys I can because they both have armor values. Why not, one has armor, and the other has armor. So since the BW has better armor, it would be dumb of me to use a rokkit buggy, now according to the internet the rokkit buggy sucks.

I hope my sarcasm was thick enough there. Boyz are troops, stormboyz are fast attack. If you want more boyz, then FFS take more boyz, we get 6 slots of em, youll have plenty. If thats not enough, then play APOC where you can throw the rules out. Eventually youll have enough boyz, or run out of slots, then what? Are you still going to say I wont take stormboyz because I have boyz! No, your troops slots are full, time to see what other slots your going to take. So now your in the position where youve decided, Im going full horde and dont want any vehicles.....ok well according to you guys, stormboyz are worse then boyz so I guess fast attack is just completely out of the picture. So Im sorry guys, comparing the 2 just doesnt make sense at all, and if something doesnt make any sense, that means your probably doing it wrong.

KingCracker wrote:Eventually youll have enough boyz

Define 'enough'. More Boyz is always better!

KingCracker wrote:or run out of slots, then what?

Nitpciking maybe, but at 1500-2000 this hardly ever comes up...

Nit picking or not, the point still stands. If you have more slots for boyz, you shouldnt be trying to compare boyz to stormies anyways. Im not seeing where this argument should keep going.

KingCracker .V. Mannahnin, WOW! talk about a heated debate!




You both know your reasons, and make good points!

I came up with a good Off topic thread,....

That isnt a heated debate. Look GWAR's posts back before he was canned. That guy would bring the worst.

You know this is a lot of wasted efffort here. the individual unit is in the army to fill a role something else isn't right? So as long as the role is filled, i think we are worryin a little too much here.

Example:

I use 11 Stingwings in my Tau army. I can count on one hand how many other people do and I dont even need all the fingers.

So why is it that my opponents so often GLARE at that unit and say things like "Man that unit is mean". and "I can't beeleive they killed my command squad" and so on.

Well i'll tell you why. That's what they are supposed to do. they are designed very specifically to be Markerlight aided. They swoop in on a flank, KILL the Longfangs pretty much guaranteed, and then because they are o nthe flank and obscured by countless terrain and vehicles as well as distance, they do not get bombarded with fire. their most immediate threat is gone. They also are fast and can now move to their next target and do it yet AGAIN. It's common for the Stingwings to get 2 pivotal KP's for me a game, and they are often milling around objectives at games end becasue frankly as you knock them down in size and more of the enemy is no longer in the backfield, they simply are an irritant, a perception I am happy to promote by hiding them til the end. That's a lot of use out of that unit. It WORKS because I have a plan for its use and no other Tau unit could do it better.

Now I have recently convinced my friend who plays with Crisis suits to do this. Alsready he tends to drop his suits in one sector, clear it out nearly completely with Plasma and meltas and TL Plasmas, all markerlight guided. But often there are remnants left i nthe area that could at least threaten them or tie them up. The Stingwings now can finish that job for him and also creates yet another and much faster, threat the enemy has to think about over there. It protects the suits and the suits protect them. Both targets are pretty attractive but the Stingwings are harder to kill when they have cover. But yet if you dont kill them, they will get to you faster and do it to you again... Decisions decisions.

This is just a little microcosm to illustrate that the "worst" units" are not the "worst" at everything and if you just make sure they do THAT thing they do well, then why bother pointing out the things you'll never ask it to do anyways? Whats the point?

Just saying.

KingCracker wrote:No, I still say you cant compare the two, for, probably the 5th time. Yes, boyz can and do assault, and yes Stomrboyz assault, but thats where the comparisons end. Because they have different roles. Should I compare Rokkit buggies with a Battle Wagon? Sure, according you guys I can because they both have armor values. Why not, one has armor, and the other has armor. So since the BW has better armor, it would be dumb of me to use a rokkit buggy, now according to the internet the rokkit buggy sucks.

Well, by your argument you can't compare Coke and Pepsi. Yes, they're both colas, but after that the comparisons end.

Being able to show similiarities and differences is the heart of analysis. Drawing arbitrary lines in the sand is simply foolish.

by saying that because Stormboys are Fast Attack jump infantry and not infantry troops, they can't be direclty compared to Boys short circuits a crucial element in analyzying their effectivness for any list.

both have the same stat line, the same combat prowess, the same combat role. One is cheaper and scores. The other has mutliple mobiilty enhancers. Determining if the trade off is worthwhile is actually the core of army building. I mean, stormboys are quite literally boys with rokkit packs. This isn't a convoluted comparison.

this is a specific example, as choosing between units is all army building is. However... when you are looking at Orks, you are, lootas aside, building a short ranged, most likely melee focused, list. Given that Orks have the option for a remarkably flexible and capable short range, assault capabel unit in troops, it's the rare Ork list that won't eventually face the "steak or sizzle" debate regarding boys and another unit.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingCracker wrote:Nit picking or not, the point still stands. If you have more slots for boyz, you shouldnt be trying to compare boyz to stormies anyways. Im not seeing where this argument should keep going.

That seems oddly simplistic.

Why wouldn't a person debate the value of a fifth scoring unit vs. the flexbiilty of jump infantry? Isn't that a pretty big part of all fifth edition army list building?

For example, when I built my Hard boys Battlewagon list, I took two units of trukk boys. I didn't take them simply because I wanted six troops choices (I could have taken grots), but because I wanted scoring units more than I wanted bigger loota squads or more deff koptas.

TLDR: storm boyz are awesome in green tide because they fill a unique role; bikes are just as bad as storm boyz in general.

KingCracker wrote:

Really? Your going to say bikes are just as good in CC, with half the numbers? I think your trying to make your point without really thinking about it. Orks are ONLY good/decent in CC because of their numbers, full stop. Without the numbers, your praying to the dice gods that your opponents will roll 1s and your rolling 6s. No, bikes are NOT good in CC, the cost and lack of numbers screws them horribly in that department. So your left with a Bigshoota platform, that costs 25pts.....thats a lot of points for a quick moving Bigshoota.

Boyz and stormboyz have totally different uses. Boyz are for tying up units, taking objectives and soaking up wounds for the Nob. Stormboyz are for jumping into assaults and using their numbers to push the assault into your favor. Thats it. Sure, you usually use them in conjunction with boyz I.E. boyz assault, and then you jump your stormboyz in to push the enemy unit over the edge. So no, you cannot compare them, again, its stupid to.

AND like I was saying before, just because all these units are in the same slot, doesnt mean you should compare them ALL together. Yes everything in Fast Attack is fast, should you compare them all to one another? No. Why? Because AGAIN, they all do different rolls. Deffkoptas and Rokkit Buggies make sense to compare, why shouldnt you compare them to bikes? They all move like a vehicle. Well koptas and buggies are used for quick strikes and popping vehicles, bikes are not, neither can stormboyz. Can you compare stormboyz with koptas? Id say sure, because they can both do quick assaults. Boyz and buggies? Nope, ones a vehicle and used for its gun. Are you getting it yet? It should come down to, do I want a kopta or rokkit buggies? Do I want Stormboyz or bikes? They all have their own reasons for being there, and none of them have gak to do with boyz.

If you want to compare role to role then boyz can be compared to storm boyz and follow the logic of there are half as many storm boyz as boyz therefore stormboyz are not good in cc because of their numbers full stop. If you want to compare slot to slot then stormboyz are competing with anti tank, and bikes. Mind you if the bikes and storm boyz took the same amount incoming fire their numbers should be comparable by the time the orks get to swing (bikes are T5 and have a 4+). If you charge either into a full strength squad alone they will both die horribly (due to reduced numbers), if they support another assault they fill the same role and are both just as useful (except the opponent will have to chose to kill an ork that costs as much as two orks, or an ork; or they will have to chose to go against T5 with a 4+ that costs 4 orks vs an ork). In addition, 12 boyz in a trukk fill the same role as storm boyz. This is where the comparison is coming from. 20 boyz in a battlewagon fill the same role, but have more options, flexibility, and tactical use. I do not see how you can compare role to role in each slot since you are building a dynamic army that has to answer different threats.

Here is some bubble world math, where everything rolls average. We will assume a turn 2 assault on a 10 man squad of naked marines(devastator squad) and magically both units of 7 bikes and 14 storm boyz got there unscathed.
Bikes: Shooting- 2.59 dead marines 8 marines left [4 hits 1.3 wounds 2/3 of a dead biker] 6 bikers - 1.6 dead marines before the klaw, klaw kills 1-2= 5 marines left. 1 ork lost
Storm: shooting .7 dead marines 9 marines left [1.87 dead orks] 12 storm boyz: 3.66 dead marines, klaw kills 1-2=4 marines left. 2 orks lost
pretty similar on average. Obviously things like terminators are going to be avoided by bikes if possible, and storm boyz wouldn't mind getting stuck in as much.

KingCracker wrote:No, I still say you cant compare the two, for, probably the 5th time. Yes, boyz can and do assault, and yes Stomrboyz assault, but thats where the comparisons end. Because they have different roles. Should I compare Rokkit buggies with a Battle Wagon? Sure, according you guys I can because they both have armor values. Why not, one has armor, and the other has armor. So since the BW has better armor, it would be dumb of me to use a rokkit buggy, now according to the internet the rokkit buggy sucks.

You can; even with your sarcasm if you are looking for anti tank you have two choices fast buggies that can get to the side vs. deffrollas. One is better vs skimmers one is better vs AV 14. It is a valid comparison. One adds to the target saturation of trukks, the other has to be run with multiple battlewagons to achieve target satuaration.

your in the position where youve decided, Im going full horde and dont want any vehicles.....ok well according to you guys, stormboyz are worse then boyz so I guess fast attack is just completely out of the picture. So Im sorry guys, comparing the 2 just doesnt make sense at all, and if something doesnt make any sense, that means your probably doing it wrong.

KingCracker wrote:Nit picking or not, the point still stands. If you have more slots for boyz, you shouldnt be trying to compare boyz to stormies anyways. Im not seeing where this argument should keep going.

In a situation where you have filled your troops out and do not have more boyz as an option, yes stormboyz are a very valid option, before that point not so much because they fill the same role as your basic troop. In fact a squad of 12 boyz fill the same role as storm boyz, assault support. Just like bikes fill the same roll. This is where the comparing the utility of one unit to another comes into play. Storm boyz excell in a green tide because they fill a role that your army doesn't have (mobility). Storm boyz overall do not outweigh the other mobility options in the codex.

me 'Ead 'Urts..... Dats some thinking,.... but...

Storm boyz excell in a green tide because they fill a role that your army doesn't have (mobility). Storm boyz overall do not outweigh the other mobility options in the codex.

Storm boys excell with other types of Combat Doctrine as well.

From my point of view, Storm boyz are anti-infantry units that
1) target the opponents backfield
or
2) support combat anywhere on the board

Zagstrukk doesn't change their role, he just makes them better at it.

That's a rule which can be fulfilled by a lot of other units in our codex, namely warbikers, deff koptaz(not the suicide variant), nob bikerz, trukk boyz and kommandoz /w snikrot, warboss on a bike.

Comparing 20 Stormboyz(280 points) to each of those:

Warbikers (340 points full unit)
+ A lot better at shooting
+ A lot more survivable
+ Better at assaulting vehicles, because they don't have to worry about getting caught in the open and take way less casualties from explosions.
o Turbo boost arguably better than moving 1d6" more each turn
o Slightly better in combat due to armor, but less models
- Twice as expensive per model
- Smaller mob, thus losing fearless faster

Total: Warbikers are much better at harassing the opponents backfield, as backfield units tend to be weaker in combat, and the can simply shoot them up without taking any casualties. Due to their costs and dependency on armor and toughness to survive, they should not help other units taking on dangerous combat units.

Deff koptaz (275 points for a unit)
+ A lot better at shooting
+ Can have multiple PKs
+ Big Bombs can decimate light infantry without taking casualties
o More survivable against small arms fire, vulnerable to instant death
o Turbo boost arguably better than moving 1d6" more each turn
- PK only S6/7
- No second CCW and few models makes it impossible to take on units with lots of wounds
- Leadership is terrible

Total: About as good as stormboyz when harassing the backfield. However, unless you are shooting rokkits at vehicles, Stormboyz do the job better than koptaz.

Nob bikerz (370 points for fully loaded unit of five)
+ Better at shooting
+ A lot more survivable
+ Multiple PKs and big choppas makes them deadly to vehicles
+ Much more deadly in close combat
o Turbo boost arguably better than moving 1d6" more each turn
- Very expensive
- Vulnerable to instant death and massed powerweapon attacks
- Require a warboss to babysit them for ld and catching missiles.

Total: They surpass stormboyz at killing, no matter where you look. They won't be able to help in close combat against walkers or other high-strenght combatants, and they cost almost twice as much(including the warboss) as a single unit of stormboyz. Can't say they aren't worth those points. though.

Trukk boyz (152 points)
+ A lot cheaper
+ Trukk can tank shock
+ Boyz can not be shot while embarked
+ Scoring
o The same in combat, but less models per unit
o Trukk is able to move flat out, boyz are able to Waagh!, making the as fast as storm boyz on average
- Boyz will take casualties from the explosion when the trukk dies
- Trukk is harder to hide behind cover

Total: The have a harder time reaching the backfield, because they have to go around obstacles. Other than that, they are just as good as stormboyz at everything, but cost half as much. It also make sacrificing them for tactical benefit a much better choice, making them better at supporting other assaults.

Snikrot's Kommandoz (265 points)
+ Can not be shot prior to their attack
+ Can get burnaz or rokkits
+ Can attack anywhere near the board edge
- Move slowly after taking down their initial targets
- No PK

Total: While being five less models, not getting shot before your first attack evens that out. They can't crack walkers and are limited to the board's edges, but Ambush makes them more flexible than storm boyz and harder to counter.

Warboss on a Bike (155)
+ High Attacks, Strength, Toughness
+ Can take on most backfield units by himself
+ Shreds vehicles to pieces
+ Can "hide" in other units until close enough
o Turbo boost arguably better than moving 1d6" more each turn
- HQ slot
- Just one model and thus dies to torrent of fire of anything

Total: Nothing terrifies an opponent more than a huge ork smashing anything that moves in his backfield. That's why he tends to get shot dead unless you are very careful. Charging him into any combat will most likely win you that combat, and functionally isn't any different from him being with one of the fighting units in the first place. A warboss is always superior to a unit of stormboyz, but you rarely have the slot to spare.

Bottom line: Either of the stormboyz' strength is done better by other units. They are a unit that has mediocre harassing and support abilities, for a mediocre price. The can't stick to cover for the whole game, and even in cover you lose some. 12 Points and 4+ cover means your opponent is just as efficient when shooting stormboyz in cover, as he is when shooting boyz in the open. So they are basically too expensive for what they do. That's not unique to orks though, assault marines, warp spiders and raptors are all the same.