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With the 5e Chaos Space Marine codex being the fail that it is (and everyone knows it), how many of you would be against your regular CSM players using their 3.5 Codexes again (with rules updated to 5e of course)? The 3.5 codex was a work of art, that allowed all kinds of different chaos armies to be made. Many options were taken out when CSM made the move to 3.5 because GW considered these options overpowered. Such things include the legion specific rules, and a lot of the upgrades. My problem is that many of the options taken out of the 3.5 codex have become available to other armies in 5th, just going to show that these options aren't as overpowered as GW at first though when writing the 5th edition CSM dex. Options for real daemons to be used were taken away, not for balance issues, but simply because GW wanted Chaos Daemons as it's own army ( a dumb idea if you ask me. Chaos Daemons armies don't really belong in 40k without SOME mortal influence, as the only time this type of army would ever come up in the 40k universe fluff is during a break in realspace where a massive chaos daemon invasion occurs, which is hard to believe in a lot of cases i.e. A chaos portal suddenly opens on a Tau homeworld and invades....why? With no mortals around to perpetrate these invasions, it just feels out of place to me.) Granted, during 3rd edition the 3.5 codex was ahead of its time and perhaps somewhat overpowered. My argument is that now that 5th edition has had some time to play out, and we have some idea what the power level of units should be, I believe to majority of players who have read the 3.5 CSM dex would agree that nothing they could field would be any more powerful than what Grey Knights, Blood Angels, or Space Wolves can field. So now the question is, if I wanted to use my 3.5 CSM dex, would you allow it? Why or why not?

Not even for a second. The 3.5 codex was, and still would be way overpowered. Even though some of the options may ( and I really don't know what you're alluding to) be scattered through some of the newer dexes, they are just that, scattered. No one codex has all the options that have been re-implemented, and for good reason. In any case, codex creep dictates that you have a very good chance of being OP once again when the new chaos codex hits.

Edit: Wrong forum. This should be in 40k Discussions.

Yes, if they really wanted to.

You didn't play during the 3.5ed book, did you? It makes GKs or SWs look reasonable in comparison.

Yes, I miss the masses of customisation, but it damn near broke an entire edition.

Please don't exaggerate, the 3.5 Chaos codex was NOT dominating anywhere near the levels of GK or SW (who are approaching WFB 7th edition Daemons in their ubiquity).

The biggest problem with the codex was all the various options, some of which negated or opened up other options, which combined the fact that people are idiots, amounted to a lot of illegal lists (not to mention making verifying legality exceedingly tedious).

What am I alluding to? How about that in 3.5, for +3 points a model, you could make your basic CSM have Furious Charge, Move through cover, or Tank Hunters. Grey Hunter packs have Counter Attack, another universal special rule, added on at no additional price, so I see no reason why CSM squads shouldn't be allowed this option again. Fluff terms, these are marines that have possibly been alive since the heresy. CSM was originally intended to be an elite force, more elite than normal marines. This is not a game breaking option, and it is completely in character with the army.

Grey Knights Dreadknights have the option for a Nemesis Greatsword, which I imagine you already know the rules for. Not long after GK were released, they FAQ 'd Warptime to take away the same ability. Why? There is no good answer here. Not for balance issues, surely. Why would a Dreadknight be allowed to do something and it not be overpowered, but a Daemon Prince does it, and it is, when the Dreadknight has a better statline and wargear?

Artificer armour is not overpowered. Nobody in their right mind would say so. So why take away the option for Daemon armour? You'd be hard pressed to come up with a good argument against this. Same thing applies to Adamantine Mantle and Daemonic Rune.

My point is that CSM players are screwed right now. Everyone knows it. My 5th edition codex is on par with 3rd edition codexes like Black Templars and Dark Angels. It's absurd. And no amount of Obliterators or Plague Marines will make it worthwhile.

Specifically tell me which aspects of the 3.5 CSM dex you think are overpowered.

UberhAxTHC, just FYI, the current Chaos book is actually from 4th ed.

UberhAxTHC wrote:With the 5e Chaos Space Marine codex being the fail that it is (and everyone knows it), how many of you would be against your regular CSM players using their 3.5 Codexes again (with rules updated to 5e of course)?

Firstly I don't consider the current chaos codex a fail, except for the completely generic daemons. That was just really dumb. Beyond that my current codex chaos marines have never lost a battle, even against supposedly cheese filled auto-win armies. So I see no failure there at all.

As for the 3.5 Chaos fandex I have no interest in dealing with it. As with all fandex books it is the wet dream of the author for their favorite army. Those lists are always overpowered and crazy in their presentation. So no thanks.

I'll happily stick with the current codex and hope they don't mess up my armies too much in the next incarnation.

Skriker

Although I don't think we should go back to the 3.5 codex...

@Skriker: Never lost...? Sounds unlikely.

pretre wrote:Although I don't think we should go back to the 3.5 codex...

@Skriker: Never lost...? Sounds unlikely.

Unlikely but true...I have had plenty of losses with my Eldar and vanilla space marines, but it just seems that whenever I fall back to the "old standards" they never fail me and I am quite happy with that. I have been playing chaos in one form or another since 2nd edition so I just sync well with them which helps a lot as well. Which is why I don't buy into the "the current chaos codex is useless" arguements. They do just fine by me.

Skriker

Not going to argue it, just seems unlikely that you are completely unbeatable with one army. I have known some pretty great 40k players and none of them has ever been unbeatable with an army.

Maybe big fish, small pond?

The 3.5E codex was full of useless crap and overpowered options. Just because SW have counterattack doesn't mean "there's no reason CSM shouldn't have it too". I guess you want every codex to be SW?

The 4E codex is actually fine. Although overpriced, it's beautifully streamlined and has its strengths and weaknesses just like a codex should. If you think the weaknesses are too severe, you can counts-as SW or GK.

Almarine wrote:The 3.5E codex was full of useless crap and overpowered options. Just because SW have counterattack doesn't mean "there's no reason CSM shouldn't have it too". I guess you want every codex to be SW?

The 4E codex is actually fine. Although overpriced, it's beautifully streamlined and has its strengths and weaknesses just like a codex should. If you think the weaknesses are too severe, you can counts-as SW or GK.

But then you couldn't take any of the really *chaosy* stuff. The 3.5e codex was strong, but the 5e GK codex is definitely stronger. I'd say that it's the closest thing to 7th ed WHFB Daemons of Chaos that 40k has ever experienced.

The 3.5E codex was full of useless crap and overpowered options. Just because SW have counterattack doesn't mean "there's no reason CSM shouldn't have it too". I guess you want every codex to be SW?

It's mostly due to SW having counterattack, acute senses, bolt pistol, ASTKNF, CCW, and all for the same cost as a chaos marine who has, at best...Just bolt pistol and CCW with no special rules (Just grey hunters and the rest though, GH were originally 17 points! And pretty much should still be there!)

With marines being standard 16 points now, Space Wolves having cheaper sergeants and cheaper marines despite having both BP and CCW is kinda a slap to the face. aka, Kelly up

Kain wrote:

Almarine wrote:The 3.5E codex was full of useless crap and overpowered options. Just because SW have counterattack doesn't mean "there's no reason CSM shouldn't have it too". I guess you want every codex to be SW?

The 4E codex is actually fine. Although overpriced, it's beautifully streamlined and has its strengths and weaknesses just like a codex should. If you think the weaknesses are too severe, you can counts-as SW or GK.

But then you couldn't take any of the really *chaosy* stuff. The 3.5e codex was strong, but the 5e GK codex is definitely stronger. I'd say that it's the closest thing to 7th ed WHFB Daemons of Chaos that 40k has ever experienced.

Most things in the chaos dex are possible to counts-as using SW or GK or BA. Also, unless you're playing scrubs GK aren't that OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Biolizard: SW don't have ld10 or access to icons. Tactical squads can't take two special weapons. But that's not even the point, codices are supposed to have different strengths. SW don't have obliterators for example, skyclaws can't measure up to raptors, chaos termies are cheap as hell, CHOSEN...

:
@Biolizard: SW don't have ld10 or access to icons. Tactical squads can't take two special weapons. But that's not even the point, codices are supposed to have different strengths. SW don't have obliterators for example, skyclaws can't measure up to raptors, chaos termies are cheap as hell, CHOSEN...

This example doesn't hold water at all when the previous codex had it exactly the way I had mentioned it. Internal balance is crap here and everyone knows it, because the higher points of the Grey hunters offset the fact that they were the best troops choice, but gave a reasoning also for why one would take the cheaper bloodclaws, with them the exact same points, nobody takes bloodclaws, why? Because the internal balance is shot! The original codex had Grey Hunters being the better troops, while bloodclaws more numerous, and hotheaded, and while the +1A in combat on charges was a bonus, it's pretty much why you took them over GH, because they were cheaper. There's no point to them now with them the exact same cost.

As for the rest, chaos termies are only 3 points cheaper than the Wolf Guard terminators, without the special rules, and without the unit joining ability.

As for Icons..Nobody likes icons, they aren't a good concept as they can be gotten rid of easily (Who am I worshiping again!? Durr..), and paying a 10 extra points (I guess you could say +1 per model in a group of 10) to barely even match space marines in leadership thanks to ASTKNF is an Insult.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

:
@Biolizard: SW don't have ld10 or access to icons. Tactical squads can't take two special weapons. But that's not even the point, codices are supposed to have different strengths. SW don't have obliterators for example, skyclaws can't measure up to raptors, chaos termies are cheap as hell, CHOSEN...

This example doesn't hold water at all when the previous codex had it exactly the way I had mentioned it. Internal balance is crap here and everyone knows it, because the higher points of the Grey hunters offset the fact that they were the best troops choice, but gave a reasoning also for why one would take the cheaper bloodclaws, with them the exact same points, nobody takes bloodclaws, why? Because the internal balance is shot! The original codex had Grey Hunters being the better troops, while bloodclaws more numerous, and hotheaded, and while the +1A in combat on charges was a bonus, it's pretty much why you took them over GH, because they were cheaper. There's no point to them now with them the exact same cost.

As for the rest, chaos termies are only 3 points cheaper than the Wolf Guard terminators, without the special rules, and without the unit joining ability.

As for Icons..Nobody likes icons, they aren't a good concept as they can be gotten rid of easily (Who am I worshiping again!? Durr..), and paying a 10 extra points (I guess you could say +1 per model in a group of 10) to barely even match space marines in leadership thanks to ASTKNF is an Insult.

And Chaos termies are only that cheap if you don't take power fists. Power fists give termies huge versatility as they can punch vehicles and monstrous creatures to death while their power swords would only annoy them. Chaos termies don't get cyclone launcher equivalents, and instead of the sweet assault cannon, they get the reaper autocannon, a TL'd autocannon with 12' less range. I've already run a poll and it seems that the consensus is that the Assault cannon beats the tar out of the Reaper autocannon in usefulness. Chaos terminators are pretty much worse than loyalists in every way except leadership, and they don't get ATSKNF. And as Lizard said, Icons are a bad joke.

Yes, just to see how it aged and what it sort of was like since I wasn't playing during the days of 3ed

Cerebrium wrote:You didn't play during the 3.5ed book, did you? It makes GKs or SWs look reasonable in comparison.

Yes, I miss the masses of customisation, but it damn near broke an entire edition.

QFT

Nothing ever in 40K since came close to the (from a game-play / game balance POV) abomination of the 3.5 Chaos book.

I'd let someone play 3e CSM... If I get to use the SM upgrades From 4e for my marines.

Zweischneid wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:You didn't play during the 3.5ed book, did you? It makes GKs or SWs look reasonable in comparison.

Yes, I miss the masses of customisation, but it damn near broke an entire edition.

QFT

Nothing ever in 40K since came close to the (from a game-play / game balance POV) abomination of the 3.5 Chaos book.

Not looked in the GK book then have we?

Zweischneid wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:You didn't play during the 3.5ed book, did you? It makes GKs or SWs look reasonable in comparison.

Yes, I miss the masses of customisation, but it damn near broke an entire edition.

QFT

Nothing ever in 40K since came close to the (from a game-play / game balance POV) abomination of the 3.5 Chaos book.

Hyperbolic, as you seem to never have fought Tri-falcon lists (Which were horrorfying, and almost gamebreaking)

The chaos one was a PITTANCE compared to the skimmer lists in 4th ed.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:You didn't play during the 3.5ed book, did you? It makes GKs or SWs look reasonable in comparison.

Yes, I miss the masses of customisation, but it damn near broke an entire edition.

QFT

Nothing ever in 40K since came close to the (from a game-play / game balance POV) abomination of the 3.5 Chaos book.

Hyperbolic, as you seem to never have fought Tri-falcon lists (Which were horrorfying, and almost gamebreaking)

The chaos one was a PITTANCE compared to the skimmer lists in 4th ed.

And the Necron warrior doom march. Don't need anything else, because that one unit covers your anti-infantry, your anti-tank, your CC, your objective taker and camper, and so on. Just flood the board with 120 warriors and 2 lords with res orbs and you'd kill everything. And of course if you have the points, Monoliths, Immortals, and Destroyers. Phase out you say? So what I have over a hundred models that can take out anything from infantry to titans. And of course the ever rage inducing fish of fury for the Tau. You can't touch my fire warriors behind these transports, but I can certainly wreck you with dozens if not hundreds of pulse rifle shots! Got something that can take them out? Well not any more you don't! I have crisis suits!

And of course Nidzilla. I have eight T7 models with four wounds each, 2+ saves, and two of them have 3 two wound meat shields each. I can fit them all in a thousand point game rather easily. Got points left over? Oh that just means I can take gaunts that have without number and drown you in hundreds of models, and my raveners and warriors will also rip you to shreds. Of course, the Nid codex was strong in 4e rather than actually overpowered. Unlike now where it's disgustingly underpowered.

Grimtuff wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:You didn't play during the 3.5ed book, did you? It makes GKs or SWs look reasonable in comparison.

Yes, I miss the masses of customisation, but it damn near broke an entire edition.

QFT

Nothing ever in 40K since came close to the (from a game-play / game balance POV) abomination of the 3.5 Chaos book.

Not looked in the GK book then have we?

I did. It's a great book. It offers the widest range of armies of any 40K Codex yet.. from really (from a modeling perspective) DraigoWing that helps lower the entry bar to 40K to the ultimate hobby-custom force of Henchmen, which offer you a virtual DIY-Codex in a Codex-toolbox. Some point costs are off, sure, but nothing half as bad as Vendettas or Long Fangs. And nothing even remotely in the same league of abuse as the 3.5 Chaos Dex.

Kain wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

:
@Biolizard: SW don't have ld10 or access to icons. Tactical squads can't take two special weapons. But that's not even the point, codices are supposed to have different strengths. SW don't have obliterators for example, skyclaws can't measure up to raptors, chaos termies are cheap as hell, CHOSEN...

This example doesn't hold water at all when the previous codex had it exactly the way I had mentioned it. Internal balance is crap here and everyone knows it, because the higher points of the Grey hunters offset the fact that they were the best troops choice, but gave a reasoning also for why one would take the cheaper bloodclaws, with them the exact same points, nobody takes bloodclaws, why? Because the internal balance is shot! The original codex had Grey Hunters being the better troops, while bloodclaws more numerous, and hotheaded, and while the +1A in combat on charges was a bonus, it's pretty much why you took them over GH, because they were cheaper. There's no point to them now with them the exact same cost.

As for the rest, chaos termies are only 3 points cheaper than the Wolf Guard terminators, without the special rules, and without the unit joining ability.

As for Icons..Nobody likes icons, they aren't a good concept as they can be gotten rid of easily (Who am I worshiping again!? Durr..), and paying a 10 extra points (I guess you could say +1 per model in a group of 10) to barely even match space marines in leadership thanks to ASTKNF is an Insult.

And Chaos termies are only that cheap if you don't take power fists. Power fists give termies huge versatility as they can punch vehicles and monstrous creatures to death while their power swords would only annoy them. Chaos termies don't get cyclone launcher equivalents, and instead of the sweet assault cannon, they get the reaper autocannon, a TL'd autocannon with 12' less range. I've already run a poll and it seems that the consensus is that the Assault cannon beats the tar out of the Reaper autocannon in usefulness. Chaos terminators are pretty much worse than loyalists in every way except leadership, and they don't get ATSKNF. And as Lizard said, Icons are a bad joke.

Combi-weapons say hi.

Using the most OP codex of all time?

Hell yeah I would.

That is how I imagined Chaos Legions to be.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Kain wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

:
@Biolizard: SW don't have ld10 or access to icons. Tactical squads can't take two special weapons. But that's not even the point, codices are supposed to have different strengths. SW don't have obliterators for example, skyclaws can't measure up to raptors, chaos termies are cheap as hell, CHOSEN...

This example doesn't hold water at all when the previous codex had it exactly the way I had mentioned it. Internal balance is crap here and everyone knows it, because the higher points of the Grey hunters offset the fact that they were the best troops choice, but gave a reasoning also for why one would take the cheaper bloodclaws, with them the exact same points, nobody takes bloodclaws, why? Because the internal balance is shot! The original codex had Grey Hunters being the better troops, while bloodclaws more numerous, and hotheaded, and while the +1A in combat on charges was a bonus, it's pretty much why you took them over GH, because they were cheaper. There's no point to them now with them the exact same cost.

As for the rest, chaos termies are only 3 points cheaper than the Wolf Guard terminators, without the special rules, and without the unit joining ability.

As for Icons..Nobody likes icons, they aren't a good concept as they can be gotten rid of easily (Who am I worshiping again!? Durr..), and paying a 10 extra points (I guess you could say +1 per model in a group of 10) to barely even match space marines in leadership thanks to ASTKNF is an Insult.

And Chaos termies are only that cheap if you don't take power fists. Power fists give termies huge versatility as they can punch vehicles and monstrous creatures to death while their power swords would only annoy them. Chaos termies don't get cyclone launcher equivalents, and instead of the sweet assault cannon, they get the reaper autocannon, a TL'd autocannon with 12' less range. I've already run a poll and it seems that the consensus is that the Assault cannon beats the tar out of the Reaper autocannon in usefulness. Chaos terminators are pretty much worse than loyalists in every way except leadership, and they don't get ATSKNF. And as Lizard said, Icons are a bad joke.

Combi-weapons say hi.

Wolf Guard can take Combi weapons as terminators for the same cost.

And they can even fulfill their Suicide Melta role, even better as they can take Drop Pods while being in terminator armor, not to mention being able to combat squad on arrival so that they can fire at Two Vehicles with 2-6 multi-melta. Guaranteeing success, now they just have other options so they don't need to do this at all.

So..Yeah, 3 points better, all the special rules that come with space wolves. So..I have no clue what your point is with the Combi-Weapons.

Even down to specific wargear they are better, as the Wolf Guard In Terminator armor get Wolf Claws (Better than Lightning claws) at 5 points a piece, rather than Chaos 10 Point Lightning Claws.

pretre wrote:Not going to argue it, just seems unlikely that you are completely unbeatable with one army. I have known some pretty great 40k players and none of them has ever been unbeatable with an army.

Maybe big fish, small pond?

You are putting words in my mouth. I haven't said I am "unbeatable" I am only saying that so far I have been "unbeaten". There is a bit of a difference there. I've not claimed nor do I believe that my chaos marines are unbeatable in any form. They just haven't been since I've been using the current codex. Methinks you are over analyzing this a bit too much. Some wins are from good playing and I happily take ownership of those, but many are just from good rolling, or terrible rolling from an opponent. Last battle I fought with my Nurgle marines against Tau, my plague hulk faced 1 regular rail gun and 2 twinlinked rail gun shots for 5 turns with lots of markerlight action where my opponent couldn't roll higher than a 2 on the penetration table. His rolling was so terrible that the hulk was able to walk across the board and destroy the tank and 2 broadsides shooting at him in melee combat without taking any real damage. That poor rolling also left the rest of my army free to win the battle without being picked off my any of those railguns either. So I don't make any claims to be unbeatable in the least. My hulk should be been destroyed on turn 1 in that game and my army should have been lit up by those railguns the whole time. That game should have been a painful loss, but it wasn't. Just weird.

Skriker

Striker, your argument is a weak one. "I do well with this army, so everyone should, and nobodoy should be complaining about it."

We're not discussing your win/loss ratio with Chaos. That could not matter less to what we're talking about. The ruleset provided to Chaos Space Marines is simply unfair. We only have ONE unit now that stands us apart from the rest, Obliterators.

Daemon Prince? Your Warptime gets nerfed for no @#$%ing reason, despite that everyone already thinks the codex is underpowered WITH the previous version. Not to mention Grey Knights get the same thing nearly two months later in the Dreadknight Nemesis Greatsword (I mean wtf, nerf an underpowered army and give one of its best abilities to an already overpowered army? Do you REALLY agree with that?)

Possessed? They used to be awesome, back when you could choose their mutation in 3.5. Made them a really cool unit. Now nobody will run them unless they just don't know any better. Basically a waste of space in the book.

Chaos Sorcerer's have the power of the warp at their command, BUT ARE TERRIBLE PSYKERS. Used to be they best thing you could do with these is gear them up for combat and use Warptime to have a mini-prince. Now you can't even do that right. You honestly think it's right that Space Wolves, who HATE psychic powers, have better psychic than Chaos, who LOVES psychic power? slowed.

Summoned Greater Daemon, Summoned Lesser Daemons...if you agree with these being the replacements for our real daemons, you don't love Chaos. Seriously, HALF OF OUR ARMY LIST WAS TORN OUT. How is that ok?

Chosen...oh my god my Chosen. Back in 3.5 it was possible to upgrade every Chosen to an Aspiring Champion, and then they could each take 70 points of wargear. This allowed you to make your own custom bodyguard for your lord, you could basically equip them any way you liked. For me, I had "the Knights of Khorne", 4 Chosen mounted on Juggernaughts with the Mark of Khorne and power weapons. Now before you freak out and scream "That's definitely OP! That's why you were nerfed!", let me give you a breakdown. This is an Elite slot I was using, the unit cost a CRAPTON, and in reality, wasn't any better than THUNDERWOLF CAVALRY, who occupy a FAST ATTACK. But the fact that I could customize my models allowed me to really build a fluffy backstory to my lord and his retinue. The current Chosen don't have fluff, period. They Infiltrate, that's it. And they even charge you an extra 3 points a model for it. Oh, and as for wargear, they're not very different from Havocs. From a fluff perspective its ridiculous....these guys are the Chosen unit of my lord, his personal bodyguard...but they are no better equipped or gifted than any other unit at my disposal. They are nothing special, and that is the problem, because they are CHOSEN. They are meant to be special. Now barely anyone runs them other than a suicide role, AND WHO THE HELL WOULD USE THEIR BODYGUARD LIKE THAT?

It used to be that because Chaos Space Marines had daemons in their list, we got gimped by not having as much technology access as the loyalists. No drop pods, razorbacks, fancy land raiders or dreads. You get daemons instead. Then in our 4th edition codex, they took away all our chaos specific daemons (just so you know, that's a total of 13 whole unit entries taken out of our codex, nothing to sneeze at) and gave us literally nothing in return, but the stupid generic daemon entries.

To sum up, changes from 3.5 to current dex:
13 unit entries removed, nearly half our codex.
Entire legion system removed, including dedicated vehicles, god specific gifts and psychic powers.
Psychic Powers reworked, all minor psychic powers removed.
Daemonic gifts section removed.
Daemon Armour and Daemonic Rune removed (this irks me)
Possessed set to random abilities
Chosen nerfed to a joke.
Obliterators put in Heavy Support (I agree with this)
0-1 Limit on a Daemon Prince or Lord removed (from a fluff perspective, this also pisses me off. No Daemon Prince or Lord worth his salt would ever share.)
Summoned Greater Daemon, Summoned Lesser Daemons added.
ALL veteran skills taken away.
And as a final kick to the nuts:
Abaddon, Typhus, Fabius Bile, Lucuis, Kharn, and Ahriman, ALL nerfed.
Huron Blackheart added to the codex, then nerfed by the FAQ to Warptime.

This WHOLE CODEX was a nerf bash. NOTHING GOOD ADDED, PERIOD. ONLY things taken away. Months after it's release, and they are STILL nerfing it, after the Warptime FAQ.

Chaos is meant to be THE GREAT ENEMY. I'm not asking for them to be overpowered. I am asking that they be reasonably strong. At least on the scale of REGULAR SPACE MARINES.

If someone goes "I win with my codex therefore its a good codex", its probably best not to entertain their 12-14 year old minds. Kids just want to win and don't care much for the flavor or universe.

Powerwise, the old codex is not that OP. Let me rephrase that to not OP in the slightest. Power creep at the end of 5th ed has made it pretty mediocre compared to the newer codices.
The rules and fluff, on the other hand, is absolutely amazing and being able to reflect such a concentrated lore as game wargear is what I would consider an amazing appeal of the game.

Although just to addon a bit, if 6th comes out and allies do return, it'll be awesome to field demon allies. That'll add some vanilla to the current glucose flavored CSM codex.