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UberhAxTHC wrote:Striker, your argument is a weak one. "I do well with this army, so everyone should, and nobodoy should be complaining about it."

We're not discussing your win/loss ratio with Chaos. That could not matter less to what we're talking about.

Actually my position is not I do well with this army so everyone should. My position is that it is not the complete and total fail that you seem to want to make it out to be. Just because it isn't big, shiny and fancy doesn't make it useless. *That* is my position. You can rant and whine about it all you like, doesn't change the fact that the list is not completely useless. Yes it would be cool to have some more fancy things, and yes (as I said earlier) the generic daemons was the dumbest thing ever especially when the chaos daemons codex then came out with absolutely no linking between the two in anyway. Sure the units could be more impressive and cooler, but apparently our definitions of useless do not jibe. I can still use all the units you described as pointless in battles, enjoy the game and be quite happy with them. I generally dislike the way codex books keep adding stupid special abilities to every unit. I don't like that meta game mentality.

And as for my win/loss ratio, I was specifically responding to comments about my comments on the subject, so yes some of us were discussing my win/loss ratio with chaos.

Whether you like the codex or not doesn't mean I have to agree with your hyperbolic description of the apparent rape of the chaos codex and the "great enemy". You asked I responded. You didn't need to completely restate your entire first post on the thread because I disagreed with you. I saw it the first time and I still disagree with you.

Skriker

I beleive the 3.5 dex would fit in nicely with the current codex creep. A few changes would be warranted, like reducing the options available to Aspiring champions, but only to make them fit with the current rules. Not to reduce the power.

I think a lot of the "OMG it was SO OP!!!!" is from people having illegal lists back in the day. The old CSM bo k was kind of hard to figure out.

In a heartbeat.

The current codex is possibly the poorest codex ever written by GW to date. It's an obvious rush job. Typos are all over the codex, and the rules are super-simplified. I'm not saying its useless. People use it, therefore, its not useless. Unfortunately, people HAVE to use it, as its what they're expected to do. I simply want the chance to use a product that I purchased for this game. I don't believe we should be forced into using any single codex. We paid for the codex, we should be able to use the rules in them for our games. Most of the time this isn't an issue, as GW usually does a good job of making sure the latest codex is the strongest, fluffiest, "I've got fancy new units" codex available to the army, so most people wouldn't even think about using a previous edition codex. In fact, I wonder if ANYONE other than Chaos Space Marines would prefer to use a previous edition codex?

How about it? How many of you out there would prefer a previous edition codex to the one you have now?

Yup, if it's an actual codex, and not a print out. Actually, even if it was, I'd allow it, as long as I could go toe to toe with my 3.0 dex too

Compared to the likes of GK and Space Wolves, and everything else??? Overpowered...pfft.

3.5ed Chaos was a true Chaos representation. It's the main reason I left 40k and went to Warmachine. My army was butchered and turned into an armless hooker. Combined with Eye of Terror that was money.

Zweischneid wrote:Nothing ever in 40K since came close to the (from a game-play / game balance POV) abomination of the 3.5 Chaos book.

I can only assume you never played against Eldar in previous editions.

That is the ONLY way I will every play my CSM again.

I love how people gripe about the "dark days" of the cheese that was the 3.5 CSM codex while SWs and GKs are currently dominating way more than CSM ever did.

Everytime I read about Chaos players crying that their codex got nerfed I think about how many times my buddy's current chaos army has given my GKs a run for their money and think wow these guys must not be that good at the game. If you love playing chaos then you can find a way to make them work, I did playing necrons before their update. If you can't find a way to make them work, then well sell them and build GKs/SW so you can cry about them getting nerfed in their next update too.

l0k1 wrote:Everytime I read about Chaos players crying that their codex got nerfed I think about how many times my buddy's current chaos army has given my GKs a run for their money and think wow these guys must not be that good at the game. If you love playing chaos then you can find a way to make them work, I did playing necrons before their update. If you can't find a way to make them work, then well sell them and build GKs/SW so you can cry about them getting nerfed in their next update too.

Couldn't it be the other way around, where you are just terrible playing your GK army?

I'm just a bit upset that we lost so much of our fluffy options, as well as nearly everything, there's a reason why it's called the "Spiky marines" book. Seeing as we lost all unique wargear for vehicles, as well as HQ's, and along with no more marks for vehicles etc.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

l0k1 wrote:Everytime I read about Chaos players crying that their codex got nerfed I think about how many times my buddy's current chaos army has given my GKs a run for their money and think wow these guys must not be that good at the game. If you love playing chaos then you can find a way to make them work, I did playing necrons before their update. If you can't find a way to make them work, then well sell them and build GKs/SW so you can cry about them getting nerfed in their next update too.

Couldn't it be the other way around, where you are just terrible playing your GK army?

I'm just a bit upset that we lost so much of our fluffy options, as well as nearly everything, there's a reason why it's called the "Spiky marines" book. Seeing as we lost all unique wargear for vehicles, as well as HQ's, and along with no more marks for vehicles etc.

Lol it could, but in the end I always beat him.

The general consensus I get from chaos players is that "Our codex isn't the most broken anymore :sobs like a girl:" Or "I deserve to have everything from the SM dex + IG dex + Daemons dex + our own special stuff cuz that's the way it is in the fluff." Most spend so much time crying about what they've lost that they don't work with what they have. Honestly, there a few that I know that would still cry if gw gave them daemons book and vehicle marks but took away the option to take possessed. Lol

l0k1 wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

l0k1 wrote:Everytime I read about Chaos players crying that their codex got nerfed I think about how many times my buddy's current chaos army has given my GKs a run for their money and think wow these guys must not be that good at the game. If you love playing chaos then you can find a way to make them work, I did playing necrons before their update. If you can't find a way to make them work, then well sell them and build GKs/SW so you can cry about them getting nerfed in their next update too.

Couldn't it be the other way around, where you are just terrible playing your GK army?

I'm just a bit upset that we lost so much of our fluffy options, as well as nearly everything, there's a reason why it's called the "Spiky marines" book. Seeing as we lost all unique wargear for vehicles, as well as HQ's, and along with no more marks for vehicles etc.

Lol it could, but in the end I always beat him.

The general consensus I get from chaos players is that "Our codex isn't the most broken anymore :sobs like a girl:" Or "I deserve to have everything from the SM dex + IG dex + Daemons dex + our own special stuff cuz that's the way it is in the fluff." Most spend so much time crying about what they've lost that they don't work with what they have. Honestly, there a few that I know that would still cry if gw gave them daemons book and vehicle marks but took away the option to take possessed. Lol

Also, nobody is asking for it to be broken (except maybe a few, though I admire their honesty at least) it's the same with people wanting Eldar to be top dawg again.

As for the SM Dex + Ig dex, that's meh, I don't WANT more space marine stuff, leave that to them, I want stuff unique to the chaos dex, attack bikes? The skimmer things? Nah, just give me some daemonic warbikers and some disc riding sorcerers. Most people just want a cultist unit, not so much IG. (Though still being able to take a Basalisk as a Iron Warriors player would be cool)

Daemons used to be apart of chaos, that was 12 units ripped out from our codex in a money marketing ruse. There is a very valid complaint that it Ruined many chaos lists because themed lists used those apart with the chaos forces. And I feel pity for the Word Bearers players, because they literally lost their best things, and may never get them back for Chaos Legions due to this split.

What we have? We have a dex with one half units either worthless, or overpriced. (The quintessential 4th edition dex I know, though at least we survived better than Tau). The builds are static, and are nearly the same for competitive game-play (Daemon princes, which is now down to just Lash Princes thanks to the warptime nerf, Plague Marines in rhinos, with obliterators backing them up, maybe a chosen melta squad)

Of course some would complain, people don't like losing things in their dex (like 12+ units!), Some necrons still aren't happy that Pariahs didn't get updated after all.

l0k1 wrote:
Lol it could, but in the end I always beat him.

The general consensus I get from chaos players is that "Our codex isn't the most broken anymore :sobs like a girl:" Or "I deserve to have everything from the SM dex + IG dex + Daemons dex + our own special stuff cuz that's the way it is in the fluff." Most spend so much time crying about what they've lost that they don't work with what they have. Honestly, there a few that I know that would still cry if gw gave them daemons book and vehicle marks but took away the option to take possessed. Lol

As someone who plays a pure Thousand Sons army and has placed very well in several "competitive" tournaments, including the Bay Area Open a couple months back, it isn't impossible to win with the Chaos Marine codex. It is, however, an uphill battle. That's to be expected from a codex that's getting pretty old. My real problem with the book is that I have almost no options. I play Thousand Sons- unfortunately, Tzeentch marked Chaos Marines aren't Thousand Sons. This means that under no circumstances will I ever, in the current book, be able to field an infantry model with a heavy or special weapon. I also can't use any of the Fast Attack choices in my codex- again, Raptors or Bikes with marks aren't Thousand Sons, they're Chaos Marines who worship Tzeentch (I suppose I could run Spawn... I shouldn't have to explain why that's just sad).

I'm not looking for a broken army- when the new Grey Knight codex came out, I sold my almost 5000pt beautifully painted Grey Knight army because I was disgusted with what it had become. What I (and most chaos players) would like is a codex that allows us to play the armies that exemplify the fluff we enjoy.

somerandomidiot wrote:

l0k1 wrote:
Lol it could, but in the end I always beat him.

The general consensus I get from chaos players is that "Our codex isn't the most broken anymore :sobs like a girl:" Or "I deserve to have everything from the SM dex + IG dex + Daemons dex + our own special stuff cuz that's the way it is in the fluff." Most spend so much time crying about what they've lost that they don't work with what they have. Honestly, there a few that I know that would still cry if gw gave them daemons book and vehicle marks but took away the option to take possessed. Lol

As someone who plays a pure Thousand Sons army and has placed very well in several "competitive" tournaments, including the Bay Area Open a couple months back, it isn't impossible to win with the Chaos Marine codex. It is, however, an uphill battle. That's to be expected from a codex that's getting pretty old. My real problem with the book is that I have almost no options. I play Thousand Sons- unfortunately, Tzeentch marked Chaos Marines aren't Thousand Sons. This means that under no circumstances will I ever, in the current book, be able to field an infantry model with a heavy or special weapon. I also can't use any of the Fast Attack choices in my codex- again, Raptors or Bikes with marks aren't Thousand Sons, they're Chaos Marines who worship Tzeentch (I suppose I could run Spawn... I shouldn't have to explain why that's just sad).

I'm not looking for a broken army- when the new Grey Knight codex came out, I sold my almost 5000pt beautifully painted Grey Knight army because I was disgusted with what it had become. What I (and most chaos players) would like is a codex that allows us to play the armies that exemplify the fluff we enjoy.

As a former Necron player I can sympathize with the destruction of your beloved fluff. Hopefully for players like yourself the new dex wont destroy your favorite fluff and provide you with a balanced array of options that will allow you to play the kind of army you'd like.

The chaos book is getting old no doubt about it, but its still better than tau or the WD sisters. The point I was trying to make is that despite showing its age it is possible to do well with the dex you currently have.

I'd also like to point out that I am the only GKs player in my area. My buddy is the only regular SW player(some have them but not much) and the number of chaos players out number us almost 3-1! Lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@zebio 12+ unit loss is quite a hit no doubt as well as some of the errata the dex has been hit with, but after reading about everything you could do with the previous dex is it any wonder that they got nerfed so bad? I do hope the new dex is good. I wish all the books were well balanced with a variety of options, but gw wouldn't have that. I guess I'm more of a fan of the fluff than I am of most players lol.

somerandomidiot wrote:As someone who plays a pure Thousand Sons army and has placed very well in several "competitive" tournaments, including the Bay Area Open a couple months back, it isn't impossible to win with the Chaos Marine codex. It is, however, an uphill battle. That's to be expected from a codex that's getting pretty old. My real problem with the book is that I have almost no options. I play Thousand Sons- unfortunately, Tzeentch marked Chaos Marines aren't Thousand Sons. This means that under no circumstances will I ever, in the current book, be able to field an infantry model with a heavy or special weapon. I also can't use any of the Fast Attack choices in my codex- again, Raptors or Bikes with marks aren't Thousand Sons, they're Chaos Marines who worship Tzeentch (I suppose I could run Spawn... I shouldn't have to explain why that's just sad).

I don't think GW will ever make Thousand Sons a competitive army.

What do you usually run in your Thousand Sons army? I suspect you're not running 9-man units and only have two Troop choices?

@zebio 12+ unit loss is quite a hit no doubt as well as some of the errata the dex has been hit with, but after reading about everything you could do with the previous dex is it any wonder that they got nerfed so bad? I do hope the new dex is good. I wish all the books were well balanced with a variety of options, but gw wouldn't have that. I guess I'm more of a fan of the fluff than I am of most players lol.

Seeing as they redid it for the Gray knights codex, with so many options, neat things, and even viability for making a Non gray knight list (Henchmen) The fact that daemons got ripped annoys me harder than anything else.

They could do a bit of everything, but that's because chaos pretty much was all stuffed in one book, imagine now if you stuffed all the current stuff from all the space marine dex's, and than restrict them by a lot of varied rules. The problem was I wouldn't mind if they made chaos by chapter by chapter (like space marine dexs) But since they didn't, they got it all in one place

No, you must understand, This wasn't a nerf, this was a complete destruction. they didn't give chaos nerf sticks, they just tore everything out. Upgrades, Units, Customization, Rules. All of it, Torn and shredded. It'd be as if Space marines was all forced back into one book, but without any of the unique stuff, maybe a SC at best. There's a big difference between toning things down, and tearing out everything that made the codex, a codex.

I managed to get a hold on the 3.5 Codex when I got an army off a guy. I have to agree that thing can be labyrinthine at times but the war-gear options are a mile ahead of the latest codex. So far it seems balanced enough to me and I plan on testing it out on my friends

biccat wrote:

somerandomidiot wrote:As someone who plays a pure Thousand Sons army and has placed very well in several "competitive" tournaments, including the Bay Area Open a couple months back, it isn't impossible to win with the Chaos Marine codex. It is, however, an uphill battle. That's to be expected from a codex that's getting pretty old. My real problem with the book is that I have almost no options. I play Thousand Sons- unfortunately, Tzeentch marked Chaos Marines aren't Thousand Sons. This means that under no circumstances will I ever, in the current book, be able to field an infantry model with a heavy or special weapon. I also can't use any of the Fast Attack choices in my codex- again, Raptors or Bikes with marks aren't Thousand Sons, they're Chaos Marines who worship Tzeentch (I suppose I could run Spawn... I shouldn't have to explain why that's just sad).

I don't think GW will ever make Thousand Sons a competitive army.

What do you usually run in your Thousand Sons army? I suspect you're not running 9-man units and only have two Troop choices?

Nope, I run 9man units with Doombolt. I have a Daemon Prince with wings and a terminator sorcerer/Ahriman as my HQs, and a beautiful FW dreadnought with lascannon/ccw in my elite. My one concession to competitiveness (and honestly, my most significant anti-tank) are two units of Obliterators, modeled as terminator sorcerers with power fists and staves. They're slow and purposeful, and instead of melding their arms into heavy weapons they cast different psychic shooting powers at my opponents. A little counts-as, and my army has some viable antitank, and it's a lot less of a stretch than trying to put together a Tzeentch marked Havoc squad. And yes, for the record, I have allowed opponents to use their psychic hoods against my heavy weapons...

There's a picture of my army from the BAO on BOLS, you can see what I ran at 1750.
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/03/40k-meta-bay-area-open-2012-post-game.html

I suppose I'm glad I started CSM and only knowing the 4th ed codex.

I've lost one 1000 point game against my friend's vanilla Space Marine army, even with his 5th ed codex. I find that, for the way I play, my armies can go toe to toe with the friends I play with. Of course, we aren't all fielding ultra-competitive armies, but we aren't throwing out throwaway lists either.

I look forward to the next codex and the changes that will come along with it.

I despise it, it's bland boring, and devoid of options. There isn't anything that makes individual legions different.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Daemons used to be apart of chaos, that was 12 units ripped out from our codex in a money marketing ruse. There is a very valid complaint that it Ruined many chaos lists because themed lists used those apart with the chaos forces. And I feel pity for the Word Bearers players, because they literally lost their best things, and may never get them back for Chaos Legions due to this split.

The big problem here for me was that there was zero compatibility between the two books put into the Chaos Daemons Codex. I could understand the understated generic daemons in the Chaos Codex, *if* they were just place holders for the cooler new way daemons played in their own book which you could then add to your chaos marine force after it came out. Generic daemons and then no rules for using "chaos daemons" with chaos marines in the latter book was a kick in the nuts and the only aspect of the current chaos marine book that I don't like.

Skriker