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I've considered finally going up against the GKs on vassal, and I am painfully aware as to how disadvantaged the Tyranids are against the Grey Knights. So what would be the best course of action against the Grey knights? And remember, it's on Vassal, so assume I can use pretty much any model. Include IA stuff if you feel so inclined.

Hoard gets fried in templates.
Nidzilla gets force weaponed to death.

Cry.

If you can take forgeworld models (Not sure about apocalypse)

Meiotic spores are useful for MEQ crushing.

Grey knights are overpowered, nids need an update.

If you win let me know.. I'll be stunned.

As a GK player, the only thing that was somewhat effective was Shadow in the Warp and Ymargl (sp?) Genestealers.

Everything else was as Dakkadood said. Psycannons/Force Weapons ate the big ones alive and bolters/flamers/cleansing flame took care of the hordes.

Definitely a challenge and if you do pull off a win you'll know you earned it!

DoW

If you know how the GK is built then you can tweak to make it a slightly better matchup.

Paladin list - Doom and genestealers with a SITW bubble will be nice. Hive guard are also good as the S8 can double them out. Best hope is for a 5 objective mission and then just run around and camp 3-4 objectives late game for the win using mass termagants from tervigons.

Psybolt dread/razor spam - you can't get away from 9 hive guard with FNP from tervigons. Even then it's a tough one. Don't expect MCs to last as psybolters wound on 4s. Stealers might work here as they have rending.

How many points?

I'd go heavy on genestealers, hive guard, and the cheaper sources of SitW. If you don't include a handful of big bugs, give yourself a few Zoans in spods to handle the off chance of a land raider.

I would not take zoanthropes against GK at all. They currently have some of the strongest psy-defense in the game, against offensive powers.

The could force you to take the Psy test at -4 lD, then throw a hood at you if you pass.


Against defensive or buffing powers, they will only get the hood.




The issue is that GK can build a lot of different looking lists that are all hard to beat.


"Normal GK" [strike squads and the like] are easily beaten in close combat by horde units.
Purifiers however eat hordes for breakfast with cleansing flame.

Shadows gives your MC's some protection against all of the force weapons, but depending on the unit, there may be enough hammers to just beat you up with brute force.

Henchmen are a huge MSU list, that can easily throw down 6 scoring units in transports for a very low cost.
Paladin Deathstars are the opposite, and have a very easy time winning in kill point games.



The shooting power of most GK lists revolves around 4 guns.

TL- Heavy Bolters [upgrades to S6]
TL- Autocannons [upgraded to S8]
Psycannons [S7 with rending]
Storm Bolters [possible upgrade to S5, but not always]



Build your list to weather that type of shooting as well as you can
Then when you shoot back at their vehicles, make sure you try to get shadows on them as well to counter Fortitude.

Try not to engage Purifiers in combat with your horde units, Anything else you can throw a horde at it with reasonable effectiveness.

daedalus wrote:How many points?

I'd go heavy on genestealers, hive guard, and the cheaper sources of SitW. If you don't include a handful of big bugs, give yourself a few Zoans in spods to handle the off chance of a land raider.

I typically go for 2-3000 point or higher battles, as I'm less affected by nervousness and overcaution when I have units to spare. For troops, yeah I'm definitely going for stealers, I know from experience that trying to outshoot most grey knight lists as the Tyranids is a recipe for disaster as even the stormbolters become things to be feared with but a single low cost upgrade. Never again will I send in fleshborer gaunts and deathspitter warriors against dakkapurifiers and paladins. I'll probably still take Tervigons and accompanying Termagaunt broods for the benefits of their psychic powers.

For HQ, I think I'll use the older IA Malanthropes if at all possible, 250 points is expensive, but SitW on a T5, Multiwound model with warp field and 2+ poison attacks that ignore armour and inflict instant death is potentially worth it's weight in gold. It's a darn shame that The Horror is such a crappy power though. For heavy support, Trygon Primes all around, Tfexes just have that annoying lack of any ranged weapons to hurt MEQs for some unfathomable reason and if the Trygon is a prime I can get some more SitW.

Elites: Probably two full broods of Hive Guard and one of Zoanthropes, I see the Zoans as something of a necessary evil, they pack one of the better anti-tank options in the codex and one of the codex's tragically small number of MEQ killing shooting attacks in warp lance and warp blast. I'd like to take more zoans for more MEQ killing ability, but Aegis makes me antsy about this, having an Invul save is nice though. I'm definitely going to have to cover camp those guards to get them close enough to the Psyflemen and Razors though, which is annoying. Ymargls are also worth considering, but of course, as the Nid dex packs the best stuff in this one section, it'll be a tough choice.

Fast attack: Shrikes all around seems to be the best option, if only to provide more SitW, but the lack of options for power weapons really stinks against an MEQ army, but of course, the whole Fast Attack section of the Nid dex is full of mediocrity, I think I'll only go for these slots if I have the points left over and no room for anything else.

Any thoughts about the general build I have in mind? I know that even with IA stuff Nids vs GKs is probably one of if not the most lopsidedly unfair matchup in the entire game (Nids vs Dark Eldar and Blood Angels is similarly painful in my experience) but I'm hoping I've got a solid enough general idea of an army to help even the odds, however slightly.

Additionally, I'd like advice for what to do against the most problematic units, Perhaps a unit by unit breakdown of both codexes and how they compare to one another and how best to use my units against the GK's would be in order?

I have won a bit against GK with my nids. The trick is to use weight of numbers in shooting attacks. Take bare-bones gargs and just keep plinking. Use a ton of hive guard since they have good psychic defense.

One of the most effective units is 20 termagaunts with devos in a pod. Just drop them next to a unit and unload 60 shots to the face they may die next turn if you are close enough to assault (lets hope you placed them well ) but they will make up their points.

svendrex wrote:I would not take zoanthropes against GK at all. They currently have some of the strongest psy-defense in the game, against offensive powers.

The could force you to take the Psy test at -4 lD, then throw a hood at you if you pass.


Against defensive or buffing powers, they will only get the hood.

You're right. I was thinking that Land Raiders didn't get Aegis for some reason. I rescind the Zoans and suggest maybe a tyrannofex w/ rupture cannon then? Roughly 25% chance of causing a pen or glance to a land raider isn't _horrible_, really.

You don't see LRs that often in competitive builds, but I could see an LR getting added in especially if he knows you're playing Nids.

If you do end up going with the Zoans, try to get something else to take out any dreadnoughts protecting his stuff before you start firing the Zoans.

I like shrikes a lot too. They're very expensive, but this game is going to be about clearing the 24" wall of bolter fire between you and them and then hoping you have enough left to weather the close combat. Shrikes and fleeting units are going to be the only means to that end you have available. To be honest, most of the time I run Shrikes I just run a small group of them and they wind up spending more time providing a synapse/SitW bubble whereever I need them than they do actually fighting, but that's probably just my playstyle.

What Clthomps said and then some. LOTS of devourer gaunts. I like two units of 20+, no pods. Throw in a prime tricked out for close combat if you feel threatened in assault.

I also like shrikes as a counter assault unit. Shield them with gargoyles if necessary. GK will probably expect you to push for close combat. Make him plod toward you instead. Don't forget the Doom. Also doesn't need to pod, but he's more versatile that way. He can stay stashed and threaten an area, funneling the GK a little to a better ambush zone.

Also, I think I need to know if Synapse creatures count as psychic for the purposes of the GKs many, many, many ways to screw over psykers.

Kain wrote:Also, I think I need to know if Synapse creatures count as psychic for the purposes of the GKs many, many, many ways to screw over psykers.

No.

Only Tyranid Psykers count as Psykers. Synapse is not a Psychic ability.

rigeld2 wrote:

Kain wrote:Also, I think I need to know if Synapse creatures count as psychic for the purposes of the GKs many, many, many ways to screw over psykers.

No.

Only Tyranid Psykers count as Psykers. Synapse is not a Psychic ability.

I had a feeling I was being screwed half the time when playing the grey knights...Ugh...

Yeah, but all the useful Tyranid baddies are Psykers. Thropes, Tervigons, Hive Tyrants, Primes, and Doom are all psykers and will be effected by GK anti-psyker stuff.

Tyranid Primes are not Psykers. Neither are Trygon Primea.

So is there a list that can hold it's own against Grey Knights and still functions in an all-comers competitive environment?

dripwelquest wrote:So is there a list that can hold it's own against Grey Knights and still functions in an all-comers competitive environment?

Genestealer lists seem the best bet.

http://www.miniwargaming.com/content/grey-knights-vs-tyranids-warhammer-40k-battle-report-beat-matt-batrep-part-1

watch this so at least you know its possible. however remember the insane luck he had with the Doom and the studity of the GK player. Still it is atleast possible

I haven't had many games against GK yet with my Tyranids, but I have managed to eek out all wins so far, using very different builds.

Ymgarls are great, 1-2 units of 10 to clean out those backfield Psynoughts. Doom in a pod also is a beast, he has SitW and loves to munch on elite souls.
Cover saves and FNP are your friends.
2-3 Tervigons to bubblewrap his badass cc units.
Genestealers can take them on in combat (a Broodlord shut down Draigo in my last game).

Would I be right in avoiding Hive Tyrants and the Swarmlord as HQ choices against the grey knights? They both lack Eternal Warrior and are Psykers, so they would seem to become frighteningly vulnerable against most GK lists.

N.I.B. wrote:I haven't had many games against GK yet with my Tyranids, but I have managed to eek out all wins so far, using very different builds.

Ymgarls are great, 1-2 units of 10 to clean out those backfield Psynoughts. Doom in a pod also is a beast, he has SitW and loves to munch on elite souls.
Cover saves and FNP are your friends.
2-3 Tervigons to bubblewrap his badass cc units.
Genestealers can take them on in combat (a Broodlord shut down Draigo in my last game).

Are you suggesting that zero Hive Guard will still be compettive verus 10-13 rhino/razo spam armies? Anti-tank in Heavy Support looks abysmal to me after running the numbers. Or did you mean one Ymgarl unit or Doom not both and taking 2x3 Hive Guard units?

dripwelquest wrote:

N.I.B. wrote:I haven't had many games against GK yet with my Tyranids, but I have managed to eek out all wins so far, using very different builds.

Ymgarls are great, 1-2 units of 10 to clean out those backfield Psynoughts. Doom in a pod also is a beast, he has SitW and loves to munch on elite souls.
Cover saves and FNP are your friends.
2-3 Tervigons to bubblewrap his badass cc units.
Genestealers can take them on in combat (a Broodlord shut down Draigo in my last game).

Are you suggesting that zero Hive Guard will still be compettive verus 10-13 rhino/razo spam armies? Anti-tank in Heavy Support looks abysmal to me after running the numbers. Or did you mean one Ymgarl unit or Doom not both and taking 2x3 Hive Guard units?

Harpies and Tfexes can be very useful for Long Ranged anti-tank *if* you take more than one. Unfortunately multiple Tfexes is hellishly expensive and Harpies are more of a way to stunlock vehicles than to really pop them open. Much like the Vindicator if you have just one you'll be disappointed half the time.

I'd suggest Lash Whips since most Tyranids don't have grenades. Even if he Force Weapons your multi-wound models, you'll at least get a chance to strike. Maybe you can get lucky and get him in he open or if he charges you.

SitW lowers Force Weapon success rate to slightly below 50% IIRC, and they have to wound your big critters first. Since they can't use both Hammerhand and Force Weapons in any given turn unless they have an IC, which is pretty hard.

Agreed about Genestealer-heavy lists, they get to strike at least simultaneous and are good at ripping up Power Armour.

Alright, since the Tyranids have all of three units with assault grenades, two of which (the Lictor and Carnifex) are incredibly mediocre, what's my best option for forcing the GKs out of cover without getting massacred?

You don't. Lash Whips.
I say "You don't" because of Sanctuary. Eff that ability.

Forcing DT checks seems kind of cruel to use against an assault army that already has no grenades on anything that's of much use in assault. And lash warrior spam is going to be hellishly expensive and attract a ton of psybolt fire.

I have had tons of luck with shrikes armed with boneswords and toxin sacs. re-roll ones to hit and 4+ reroll to wound is amazing. this is in lower points games. I am not sure how it scales. also take a bare bones tyrant for parox. it is amazing at keeping those shrikes alive.

the careful use of that power can make or break your game. taking people down to WS1 will win you combats.

hive guard hive guard everywhere. as well as toxin sac stealers. they GK are going to have very few models. so taking one or two cracked out units is not going to end your numbers advantage.

the psyfleman dreads are your largest issue. shadows in the ward is good for stopping force weapons. also remember that if a unit popped hammerhand they can not pop force weapons.

focus your assaults and try to have back up. use the shrikes to hit those expensive units, they love killing paladins. keep the shrikes in range of parox and it will work well.

Before you ask, yes i run this and yes it works. keep that tyrant bare bones and throw in one tyrant guard and a prime. prime with lash and bonesword. tyrant guard with lash whip. bring those force weapons to I1.

this is not a shure fire way to win, but it is a chance.

focus on one unit at a time if possible.