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Hello........ i have a friend who is trying to tayler his BA to be more effective against my orks. I play more of a speed freak army We usally play 1500 points and this is what i bring.

HQ
Big Mek with KFF and burna

elites
11 burnas (inside a battlewagon with big mek)

Troops
12 slugga boys one upgrade to nob PK, BP in trukk
12 slugga boys one upgrade to nob PK, BP in trukk
12 slugga boys one upgrade to nob PK, BP in trukk
12 slugga boys one upgrade to nob PK, BP in trukk

fast attack
10 bikes one upgrade to nob PK, BP
20 stormboyz one upgrade to nob PK,BP

heavy support
Looted wagon with boom gun
Battle wagon woth 1bs and deffrolla

people have been telling him to bring 4 squads of 10 assult marines and mephiston to try and counter this.
I was thinking would green tide be a better option against that kind of list?
if so i would probably bring at least 4 squada of 30 sluggas with a warboss leading.

Any advice would be helpful thanks.

Well One thing if he is running Sanguinary preists which he should be one for every 2 squads. and if he doubles his squads up so he runs 2 squads nearby then your orks have no chance. He will be almost gaurenteed the charge. And he will be Str5 I5 because of the sanguinary Preist. And the FNP from the Preists will also save another 1/2 of the wounds the boyz cause. But running a green tide would be more beneficial against 40 assault marines that your current list.

For Mephiston he is a CC rape machine so simply tarpit him with 29 grotz or even a squad of 30 boyz. Throwing 30 boyz at him will tarpit him and you have a chance of taking him out in 2-3 turns thanks to the PK.

I play BA, and while I don't have a ton of experience fighting against Orcs, I did cream an Orc guy last night at my FLGS. He managed to kill one unit, then I tabled him on Turn 3.

I run a Mech BA list. Orcs have a really hard time against it because they don't have reliable anti-tank weapons. If your friend really wants to stick it to you, he should run mech.

1500

Mephiston

5x ASM in Razorback with Asscan
5x ASM in Razorback with Asscan
5x ASM in Razorback with Heavy Flamer
5x ASM w/Meltagun

Furioso w/ Bloodtalons and Magna in Drop-pod

Baal Pred w/ Asscan and Hvy Bolters

Rifledread
ACLC Pred
ACLC Pred

MadmanMSU wrote:I play BA, and while I don't have a ton of experience fighting against Orcs, I did cream an Orc guy last night at my FLGS. He managed to kill one unit, then I tabled him on Turn 3.

I run a Mech BA list. Orcs have a really hard time against it because they don't have reliable anti-tank weapons. If your friend really wants to stick it to you, he should run mech.

1500

Mephiston

5x ASM in Razorback with Asscan
5x ASM in Razorback with Asscan
5x ASM in Razorback with Heavy Flamer
5x ASM w/Meltagun

Furioso w/ Bloodtalons and Magna in Drop-pod

Baal Pred w/ Asscan and Hvy Bolters

Rifledread
ACLC Pred
ACLC Pred

To make that list better drop the sponsons on the baal and drop the grapple on the furioso. Maybe drop the rifle dread so you can get a razorback for the 4th squad and give the other squads upgrades.

MadmanMSU wrote:I play BA, and while I don't have a ton of experience fighting against Orcs, I did cream an Orc guy last night at my FLGS. He managed to kill one unit, then I tabled him on Turn 3.

I run a Mech BA list. Orcs have a really hard time against it because they don't have reliable anti-tank weapons. If your friend really wants to stick it to you, he should run mech.

1500

Mephiston

5x ASM in Razorback with Asscan
5x ASM in Razorback with Asscan
5x ASM in Razorback with Heavy Flamer
5x ASM w/Meltagun

Furioso w/ Bloodtalons and Magna in Drop-pod

Baal Pred w/ Asscan and Hvy Bolters

Rifledread
ACLC Pred
ACLC Pred

Goddammit, it's orks not orcs. This is 40k, not fantasy, we spell it with a K!

OT: Ghazzy will straight-up ruin Mephiston in cc. Like, seriously, he will curbstomp him and then make him his bitch and have him lick the blood off his mega armor. Also makes the rest of the army a bunch faster for the charge. Just don't load him with boyz, he should run either solo orn with other MANz. Some put him with snikrot to come in from behind, but I've never tried this before, so I cannot vouch for it. But i think the best list to counter would be kanwall. I don't know hom many points 40 assault marines with priest support is, but i'm going to guess that it will be most of his army, and his anti-tank will end up being the melta gunners in the squads. He won't have anywhere near enough firepower to kill the kans with just meltaguns, and he'll have to be in your charge range to use them. Also, if he shoots at kanz, he has to assault them, so your boyz won't be peppered by bolters, and he won't get to charge your boyz, because if he gets into combat with the kanz, he either wipes hem, and then gets charged, or doesn't wipe them, and gets charged for a multi-assault. Also, his furious charge will only let his regular guys glance kanz, and FnP is no good against DCCW.

loota boy wrote:

MadmanMSU wrote:I play BA, and while I don't have a ton of experience fighting against Orcs, I did cream an Orc guy last night at my FLGS. He managed to kill one unit, then I tabled him on Turn 3.

I run a Mech BA list. Orcs have a really hard time against it because they don't have reliable anti-tank weapons. If your friend really wants to stick it to you, he should run mech.

1500

Mephiston

5x ASM in Razorback with Asscan
5x ASM in Razorback with Asscan
5x ASM in Razorback with Heavy Flamer
5x ASM w/Meltagun

Furioso w/ Bloodtalons and Magna in Drop-pod

Baal Pred w/ Asscan and Hvy Bolters

Rifledread
ACLC Pred
ACLC Pred

Goddammit, it's orks not orcs. This is 40k, not fantasy, we spell it with a K!

OT: Ghazzy will straight-up ruin Mephiston in cc. Like, seriously, he will curbstomp him and then make him his bitch and have him lick the blood off his mega armor. Also makes the rest of the army a bunch faster for the charge. Just don't load him with boyz, he should run either solo orn with other MANz. Some put him with snikrot to come in from behind, but I've never tried this before, so I cannot vouch for it. But i think the best list to counter would be kanwall. I don't know hom many points 40 assault marines with priest support is, but i'm going to guess that it will be most of his army, and his anti-tank will end up being the melta gunners in the squads. He won't have anywhere near enough firepower to kill the kans with just meltaguns, and he'll have to be in your charge range to use them. Also, if he shoots at kanz, he has to assault them, so your boyz won't be peppered by bolters, and he won't get to charge your boyz, because if he gets into combat with the kanz, he either wipes hem, and then gets charged, or doesn't wipe them, and gets charged for a multi-assault. Also, his furious charge will only let his regular guys glance kanz, and FnP is no good against DCCW.

Well, I can not vouch for Ghaz and MANz, but every game mephistion and ghazy went head to head, Mephiston went first, killed him. one combat.
so no, ghaz alone will not ruin mephstion. it is the opposite.
Mephiston is better than a carnifex.

Then your opponant had no idea how to use ghazzy. Simple as that. Ghazzy, on a Waaagh!, has a 2++ invunerable save, where as mephiston doesn't get a save at all. Ghazzy has a huge threat rannge getting out of his battlewagon with his Waaagh!, so he can and will get the charge from Mephiston, and also has 7 strength ten attacks on the charge, all of which wound mephiston on a 2+ and deny him any saves. Mephiston will start with 4 attacks, and those that hit have to chew through a 2++ save, and don't deal instant death due to eternal warrior. That means his four attacks will deal out about .3 wounds to Ghazzy, who will respond with 3 wounds for mephiston. End result, Ghazzy stomps him in two rounds of combat. Most likely, every combat you have seen between mephiston and ghazzy, somone forgot that ghazzy has eternal warrior and his 2++ save, and insta-killed him because they didn't understand the rules. For Mephiston to kill ghazzy in one round of combat, literally everything would have to fall into his favor, and i mean everything.

If you go against a DOA list, the Kan Wall/Green Tide list works best. Against a mech list, your list at the top would work well enough. Boarding planks are great to use in that set up.

Thank you to everyone who contributed, I will try both greentide and kan wall and then post how it went.

Oh always go kan wall. Kan wall is just a variation af green tide and is normally much more effective.

redkeyboard wrote:Oh always go kan wall. Kan wall is just a variation af green tide and is normally much more effective.

^^ This. 6/9 Kans with rokkits running interference for 2 mobs of 30 boyz makes for one helluva wall of green. Toss a kff bigmek to give the Kans a cover save (either alone, hiding him behind a kan, or in a mob), and Ghazzy to beat the crap outta anything, maybe some lootas for extra transport popping (my lootas love rhinos, 4+ to glance front armor, yes please). It's generally how I play my orks, and I always make a mess of my buddy's space puppies.

Kan Wall is most effective at 1500. Any higher, use Battlewagons.


Also use this list to proceed to destroy the Razorspam list posted earlier:

KFF Big Mek - 85
KFF Big Mek - 85

5 Lootas - 75
5 Lootas - 75

10 Grots with Runtherd - 40
21 Boyz: 2 Big Shootas, Nob with PK and BP - 182
21 Boyz: 2 Big Shootas, Nob with PK and BP - 182
21 Boyz: 2 Big Shootas, Nob with PK and BP - 182

Deffkopta with TL Rokkits and Buzzsaw - 70
Deffkopta with TL Rokkits and Buzzsaw - 70

3 Killa Kans with Rokkits - 150
3 Killa Kans with Rokkits - 150
3 Killa Kans with Rokkits - 150

1496 points

3rd edit: Ghaz doesn't go with a Kan Wall. A Kan Wall is a shooting list in disguise that charges to finish off the weakened units. Once you break the wall, you're going for the game. Ghaz wants to be in a Wagon list to give guaranteed charges on 2nd or 3rd turn and is too many points at 1500.

at 1500 points, ghaz is too many points. However, at 2000 or more, I do run him in my kan wall/tide list. He is realy only there for deployment options. At 2500, I have 5 mega nobz in a battlewagon, and a unit of kommandos with snikrot. Depending on the situation is where Ghaz goes, either in the wagon or with the kommandos to smack some backfield tanks around (depending on when he comes in).

Against BA, I would always go with a tide/kan wall list. When those units deep strike in front of you, you are withing assault range.

I agree with martin74, taking Thrakka at 1500 is seriously lowering your options. The 100 points over a regular warboss (or twice that over no warboss at all) could get you a whole lot of buggies or lootaz, both which would provide you with great tools against annoying red marines.

From your original list, I would drop either storm boyz or bikes (they really do the same as trukk boyz) and use the points to stock up on as many buggies as possible, those rokkits are good at killing both razorbacks and FNP marines, and they provide additional AV10 target which draw fire from your trukks.

loota boy wrote:Then your opponant had no idea how to use ghazzy. Simple as that. Ghazzy, on a Waaagh!, has a 2++ invunerable save, where as mephiston doesn't get a save at all. Ghazzy has a huge threat rannge getting out of his battlewagon with his Waaagh!, so he can and will get the charge from Mephiston, and also has 7 strength ten attacks on the charge, all of which wound mephiston on a 2+ and deny him any saves. Mephiston will start with 4 attacks, and those that hit have to chew through a 2++ save, and don't deal instant death due to eternal warrior. That means his four attacks will deal out about .3 wounds to Ghazzy, who will respond with 3 wounds for mephiston. End result, Ghazzy stomps him in two rounds of combat. Most likely, every combat you have seen between mephiston and ghazzy, somone forgot that ghazzy has eternal warrior and his 2++ save, and insta-killed him because they didn't understand the rules. For Mephiston to kill ghazzy in one round of combat, literally everything would have to fall into his favor, and i mean everything.

That's awesome that your Ghaz can get everything to work perfectly in his favor like that. I suppose we can just ignore the fact that Meph can move 12"? And fleet? And hide behind his moving mech wall? And screen his assault with other troops? And ignore that fact that BA mech is mobile enough to get side/rear shots to pop his transport?

In a vacuum, with a perfect setup where Ghaz gets the first attack during his Waagh!, with no support from the rest of the BA army....sure. I mean, I always stick Mephiston out in front of my mech wall where the opponent can charge/shoot him first. Solid tactic, right? But let's be honest here...in the same way that a smart orK player would never just let Ghaz get assaulted without some boyz or backup, a Mephiston player would likely use his mobility and mech to try to get the advantage.

To say that one is clearly superior over the other is ridiculous.

I play against a BA player frequently, since he runs a lot of Assault squads, I have found trukks and 12 boyz not that great, maybe objective camper.
I almost always use shoota boyz to shoot first then assault. If running on foot, I like 30 man squads with 3 heavy hitters, big shootas or rokkits - one on the nob since if you give him a pk you can't keep the shoota anyway
I like foot lists more than bw since with a khan wall they have to take out the squadron vs only 1 BW, the bummer about it is you are hoofing it across the board, however, you could always have buggies or something fast to contest objectives, usually moving accross the board slowly isn't a problem.... unless facing 'nids

MadmanMSU wrote:

loota boy wrote:Then your opponant had no idea how to use ghazzy. Simple as that. Ghazzy, on a Waaagh!, has a 2++ invunerable save, where as mephiston doesn't get a save at all. Ghazzy has a huge threat rannge getting out of his battlewagon with his Waaagh!, so he can and will get the charge from Mephiston, and also has 7 strength ten attacks on the charge, all of which wound mephiston on a 2+ and deny him any saves. Mephiston will start with 4 attacks, and those that hit have to chew through a 2++ save, and don't deal instant death due to eternal warrior. That means his four attacks will deal out about .3 wounds to Ghazzy, who will respond with 3 wounds for mephiston. End result, Ghazzy stomps him in two rounds of combat. Most likely, every combat you have seen between mephiston and ghazzy, somone forgot that ghazzy has eternal warrior and his 2++ save, and insta-killed him because they didn't understand the rules. For Mephiston to kill ghazzy in one round of combat, literally everything would have to fall into his favor, and i mean everything.

That's awesome that your Ghaz can get everything to work perfectly in his favor like that. I suppose we can just ignore the fact that Meph can move 12"? And fleet? And hide behind his moving mech wall? And screen his assault with other troops? And ignore that fact that BA mech is mobile enough to get side/rear shots to pop his transport?

In a vacuum, with a perfect setup where Ghaz gets the first attack during his Waagh!, with no support from the rest of the BA army....sure. I mean, I always stick Mephiston out in front of my mech wall where the opponent can charge/shoot him first. Solid tactic, right? But let's be honest here...in the same way that a smart orK player would never just let Ghaz get assaulted without some boyz or backup, a Mephiston player would likely use his mobility and mech to try to get the advantage.

To say that one is clearly superior over the other is ridiculous.

Saying that i would take Ghaz with boys for back up shows you have very little knowledge of orks. Ghaz runs alone, because he slows down everyone else. Anyway, if you stick mephiston in a transport all by his lonesome, i can deff rolla him out of it, our run him with mega nobz so they can pop the raider or raven for him, so Ghaz can clean up. Anyway, i'm declaring my Waaagh! on turn two, and if your mephiston is running 12" forward, then i think he ought to be in range. Mephiston has fleet? Well, so does ghazzy on his Waaagh!. Your hiding him behind a mech wall? Again, MANz plus deffrolla. That oughta clear that right up. I probably won't even need both. Oh, you can manuver to get side shots on my vehicles? Guess what, Ghazzy's wagon sits in the middle, so you have to shoot through a second wagon if you want side shots. Also, KFF. Take whatever you needed to pop his wagon and double it. Fact is, Mephiston should keep well away from ghazzy. He ought to be chasing units he can wreck, like wound-allocated nobs. Unfortunately, past that, he runs out of things to wreck easy quite quickly. 30 boyz can tie him up easily.

loota boy wrote:

MadmanMSU wrote:

loota boy wrote:Then your opponant had no idea how to use ghazzy. Simple as that. Ghazzy, on a Waaagh!, has a 2++ invunerable save, where as mephiston doesn't get a save at all. Ghazzy has a huge threat rannge getting out of his battlewagon with his Waaagh!, so he can and will get the charge from Mephiston, and also has 7 strength ten attacks on the charge, all of which wound mephiston on a 2+ and deny him any saves. Mephiston will start with 4 attacks, and those that hit have to chew through a 2++ save, and don't deal instant death due to eternal warrior. That means his four attacks will deal out about .3 wounds to Ghazzy, who will respond with 3 wounds for mephiston. End result, Ghazzy stomps him in two rounds of combat. Most likely, every combat you have seen between mephiston and ghazzy, somone forgot that ghazzy has eternal warrior and his 2++ save, and insta-killed him because they didn't understand the rules. For Mephiston to kill ghazzy in one round of combat, literally everything would have to fall into his favor, and i mean everything.

That's awesome that your Ghaz can get everything to work perfectly in his favor like that. I suppose we can just ignore the fact that Meph can move 12"? And fleet? And hide behind his moving mech wall? And screen his assault with other troops? And ignore that fact that BA mech is mobile enough to get side/rear shots to pop his transport?

In a vacuum, with a perfect setup where Ghaz gets the first attack during his Waagh!, with no support from the rest of the BA army....sure. I mean, I always stick Mephiston out in front of my mech wall where the opponent can charge/shoot him first. Solid tactic, right? But let's be honest here...in the same way that a smart orK player would never just let Ghaz get assaulted without some boyz or backup, a Mephiston player would likely use his mobility and mech to try to get the advantage.

To say that one is clearly superior over the other is ridiculous.

Saying that i would take Ghaz with boys for back up shows you have very little knowledge of orks. Ghaz runs alone, because he slows down everyone else. Anyway, if you stick mephiston in a transport all by his lonesome, i can deff rolla him out of it, our run him with mega nobz so they can pop the raider or raven for him, so Ghaz can clean up. Anyway, i'm declaring my Waaagh! on turn two, and if your mephiston is running 12" forward, then i think he ought to be in range. Mephiston has fleet? Well, so does ghazzy on his Waaagh!. Your hiding him behind a mech wall? Again, MANz plus deffrolla. That oughta clear that right up. I probably won't even need both. Oh, you can manuver to get side shots on my vehicles? Guess what, Ghazzy's wagon sits in the middle, so you have to shoot through a second wagon if you want side shots. Also, KFF. Take whatever you needed to pop his wagon and double it. Fact is, Mephiston should keep well away from ghazzy. He ought to be chasing units he can wreck, like wound-allocated nobs. Unfortunately, past that, he runs out of things to wreck easy quite quickly. 30 boyz can tie him up easily.

Never run Ghaz alone. Run him in a BW with nobz or Mega-nobz. Mega-nobz are his speed and te fact you said it slows units down is both correct and incorrect. Yes technically he slows them but theoretically he doesn't. You dont get Ghaz out unless you are infront of the enemy so you hop out then charge. An no-one sticks Meph in a vehicle. You stick hime behind them out of LoS. 30 boys could tie up Ghazkull aswell. What happends when ghaz gets locked in with TH/SS terminators with a Libby in termy armour giving them prefered enemy. Your going down. Even without the Libby. Even if you charge and call the waaagh.

redkeyboard wrote:

loota boy wrote:

MadmanMSU wrote:

loota boy wrote:Then your opponant had no idea how to use ghazzy. Simple as that. Ghazzy, on a Waaagh!, has a 2++ invunerable save, where as mephiston doesn't get a save at all. Ghazzy has a huge threat rannge getting out of his battlewagon with his Waaagh!, so he can and will get the charge from Mephiston, and also has 7 strength ten attacks on the charge, all of which wound mephiston on a 2+ and deny him any saves. Mephiston will start with 4 attacks, and those that hit have to chew through a 2++ save, and don't deal instant death due to eternal warrior. That means his four attacks will deal out about .3 wounds to Ghazzy, who will respond with 3 wounds for mephiston. End result, Ghazzy stomps him in two rounds of combat. Most likely, every combat you have seen between mephiston and ghazzy, somone forgot that ghazzy has eternal warrior and his 2++ save, and insta-killed him because they didn't understand the rules. For Mephiston to kill ghazzy in one round of combat, literally everything would have to fall into his favor, and i mean everything.

That's awesome that your Ghaz can get everything to work perfectly in his favor like that. I suppose we can just ignore the fact that Meph can move 12"? And fleet? And hide behind his moving mech wall? And screen his assault with other troops? And ignore that fact that BA mech is mobile enough to get side/rear shots to pop his transport?

In a vacuum, with a perfect setup where Ghaz gets the first attack during his Waagh!, with no support from the rest of the BA army....sure. I mean, I always stick Mephiston out in front of my mech wall where the opponent can charge/shoot him first. Solid tactic, right? But let's be honest here...in the same way that a smart orK player would never just let Ghaz get assaulted without some boyz or backup, a Mephiston player would likely use his mobility and mech to try to get the advantage.

To say that one is clearly superior over the other is ridiculous.

Saying that i would take Ghaz with boys for back up shows you have very little knowledge of orks. Ghaz runs alone, because he slows down everyone else. Anyway, if you stick mephiston in a transport all by his lonesome, i can deff rolla him out of it, our run him with mega nobz so they can pop the raider or raven for him, so Ghaz can clean up. Anyway, i'm declaring my Waaagh! on turn two, and if your mephiston is running 12" forward, then i think he ought to be in range. Mephiston has fleet? Well, so does ghazzy on his Waaagh!. Your hiding him behind a mech wall? Again, MANz plus deffrolla. That oughta clear that right up. I probably won't even need both. Oh, you can manuver to get side shots on my vehicles? Guess what, Ghazzy's wagon sits in the middle, so you have to shoot through a second wagon if you want side shots. Also, KFF. Take whatever you needed to pop his wagon and double it. Fact is, Mephiston should keep well away from ghazzy. He ought to be chasing units he can wreck, like wound-allocated nobs. Unfortunately, past that, he runs out of things to wreck easy quite quickly. 30 boyz can tie him up easily.

Never run Ghaz alone. Run him in a BW with nobz or Mega-nobz. Mega-nobz are his speed and te fact you said it slows units down is both correct and incorrect. Yes technically he slows them but theoretically he doesn't. You dont get Ghaz out unless you are infront of the enemy so you hop out then charge. An no-one sticks Meph in a vehicle. You stick hime behind them out of LoS. 30 boys could tie up Ghazkull aswell. What happends when ghaz gets locked in with TH/SS terminators with a Libby in termy armour giving them prefered enemy. Your going down. Even without the Libby. Even if you charge and call the waaagh.

You misunderstand. I don't mean Ghaz in a vehicle all by his lonesome. You attach him to a unit, and then he detaches when he sees a juicy target and busts heads solo. Regroup later. Also, while i provided examples to clear up mephiston in a vehicle, I also provided examples for your mechwall alternative. I have seen mephiston in a vehicle, but he didn't start in it, mostly just hitched a ride after the original contents were dead or busy. I have seen him start in one before, but i won't go into it because the player wasn't exactly what you call a veteran, if you get my drift. And yes, Ghazzy can be tied up with thirty boyz, but because this is ghaz V. mephiston (or BA in general) i hardly see how that's relevent. And yes again, ghazzy can be killed by those hammernators with libby. But seeing how they cost 600-700 points plus ride, while Ghazzy plus ride costs 350, it sure seems like they ought to win, dontcha think?

I play BA and think the priests are overpriced. Mephiston is worth every of his 250 points. he can take down a tank and go toe to toe with a lot of compition. His only weakness is he doesn't have anything over than a armor save. So the trick to beating Phisty is using a lot of guns to shoot at him before he can get you in CC.

I play a lot of lists with BA but my current fave is:

(sorry if i don't have the correct points I don't have army builder or a codex in front of me)

the list is somewhat fluffy but still fun

Gabriel Seth

Furioso Dread with drop pod

Assault squad:
Serg with a pair of lightning claws
nine assault marines
land raider
removed jet packs

assault squad
serg with power weapon
nine assault marines
land raider
removed jet packs

assault squad
serg with power weapon
2 marines with meltaguns
7 normal marines

assault squad
same as above

SR
melta guns
lascannons

then either:
a furioso lib with blood lance and wings
or as many assault bikes as I can afford with melta guns


list is very well rounded and the first assault squad and seth are taken together. that drop pod as a locator beacon so everything deep strikes by that and the tanks blow the tanks up and the assault marines clean up the mess.

I just got done playing against a CSM army and only lost a total of five units to his tabling

redkeyboard wrote:Never run Ghaz alone. Run him in a BW with nobz or Mega-nobz. Mega-nobz are his speed and te fact you said it slows units down is both correct and incorrect. Yes technically he slows them but theoretically he doesn't. You dont get Ghaz out unless you are infront of the enemy so you hop out then charge. An no-one sticks Meph in a vehicle. You stick hime behind them out of LoS. 30 boys could tie up Ghazkull aswell. What happends when ghaz gets locked in with TH/SS terminators with a Libby in termy armour giving them prefered enemy. Your going down. Even without the Libby. Even if you charge and call the waaagh.

Please don't go about giving bad advice. You are probably a great blood angel player, but from your suggestions it seems you know about as much about orks as I do about blood angels: How to kill them, not how to play them.

Never, ever run Thrakka with a unit of nobz, if you do, you might as well simply not field either of the two. Overkill does absolutely nothing for you, and nobz can't kill anything Thrakka can't, as well as the other way around.

loota boy wrote:Saying that i would take Ghaz with boys for back up shows you have very little knowledge of orks. Ghaz runs alone, because he slows down everyone else.

Hey, you run him however you want, I'm just giving you the benefit of the doubt. I'm assuming that you wouldn't run him out into the middle of the field all by himself. I'm assuming he would have support.

Why don't we just do a little math? Let's make a few assumptions first. I'm going to assume:

1) I run Mephiston in such a craptastic way that Ghaz gets the first assault. Let's assume, per your post, that you can assault through my AV13 wall, all my other troops, and hit the Mephiston who is behind all of that. You totally caught his jump packing hide. Ghaz gets the assault.

2) Let's also assume that Ghaz gets his 2++ inv. save.

3) Since we're arguing on the internetz (effective, amirite?), we have to use average statistics. Clearly, any roll can swing wildly in a direction. Could I roll all ones and get insta-gibbed? Of course. Could Ghaz? Totally. Averages are all we have.

4) Since I don't have an orK codex, I'm going off of memory. I believe Ghaz has

WS 6
S 10
T 6
W 5
I 4
A 5
SV 2+/5++
With 2++ on the Waagh

Mephiston has:

WS 7
S 10
T 6
W 5
I 7
A 5
Sv 2+
Preferred Enemy, Transfixing Gaze, Force Weapon

5) I'm also assuming Ghaz has Eternal Warrior. Otherwise...yeah, Force Weapon = dead.


Round 1:

Mephiston strikes first. Averages 1 wound on Ghaz.
Ghaz replies. 2 wounds on average.

Result: Mephiston down to 3 wounds, Ghaz down to 4 wounds.

Round 2:
Mephiston Strikes first. Averages 3 wounds.
Ghaz replies. 2 wounds on average.

Results. Mephiston down to 1 wound, Ghaz down to 1 wound.

Round 3:
Mephiston Strikes first. Averages 3 wounds.
Ghaz is dead.

Thrakka is T5, W4 and +2 attacks on the charge. I simply assume your Mephiston stats as correct. Also, your math seems off:

Mephiston hits on 3+, wounds on 2+, saved on 2++, causing .67 wounds.
Thrakka hits on 4+, wounds on 2+, no saves, causing 2.91 6 wounds

Turn two
Mephiston hits on 3+, wounds on 2+, saved on 2++, causing .67 wounds.
Thrakka hits on 4+, wounds on 2+, no saves, causing 2.083 wounds, killing Mephiston (the fractions add up to exactly 5).

Potential Turn three
Mephiston hits on 3+, wounds on 2+, saved on 5++, causing 2.67 wounds, killing Thrakka (fractions add up to exactly 4).

Edit: Meh, reroll to hit, redoing math...

Edit2: Fixed it.

loota boy wrote:

redkeyboard wrote:

loota boy wrote:

MadmanMSU wrote:

loota boy wrote:Then your opponant had no idea how to use ghazzy. Simple as that. Ghazzy, on a Waaagh!, has a 2++ invunerable save, where as mephiston doesn't get a save at all. Ghazzy has a huge threat rannge getting out of his battlewagon with his Waaagh!, so he can and will get the charge from Mephiston, and also has 7 strength ten attacks on the charge, all of which wound mephiston on a 2+ and deny him any saves. Mephiston will start with 4 attacks, and those that hit have to chew through a 2++ save, and don't deal instant death due to eternal warrior. That means his four attacks will deal out about .3 wounds to Ghazzy, who will respond with 3 wounds for mephiston. End result, Ghazzy stomps him in two rounds of combat. Most likely, every combat you have seen between mephiston and ghazzy, somone forgot that ghazzy has eternal warrior and his 2++ save, and insta-killed him because they didn't understand the rules. For Mephiston to kill ghazzy in one round of combat, literally everything would have to fall into his favor, and i mean everything.

That's awesome that your Ghaz can get everything to work perfectly in his favor like that. I suppose we can just ignore the fact that Meph can move 12"? And fleet? And hide behind his moving mech wall? And screen his assault with other troops? And ignore that fact that BA mech is mobile enough to get side/rear shots to pop his transport?

In a vacuum, with a perfect setup where Ghaz gets the first attack during his Waagh!, with no support from the rest of the BA army....sure. I mean, I always stick Mephiston out in front of my mech wall where the opponent can charge/shoot him first. Solid tactic, right? But let's be honest here...in the same way that a smart orK player would never just let Ghaz get assaulted without some boyz or backup, a Mephiston player would likely use his mobility and mech to try to get the advantage.

To say that one is clearly superior over the other is ridiculous.

Saying that i would take Ghaz with boys for back up shows you have very little knowledge of orks. Ghaz runs alone, because he slows down everyone else. Anyway, if you stick mephiston in a transport all by his lonesome, i can deff rolla him out of it, our run him with mega nobz so they can pop the raider or raven for him, so Ghaz can clean up. Anyway, i'm declaring my Waaagh! on turn two, and if your mephiston is running 12" forward, then i think he ought to be in range. Mephiston has fleet? Well, so does ghazzy on his Waaagh!. Your hiding him behind a mech wall? Again, MANz plus deffrolla. That oughta clear that right up. I probably won't even need both. Oh, you can manuver to get side shots on my vehicles? Guess what, Ghazzy's wagon sits in the middle, so you have to shoot through a second wagon if you want side shots. Also, KFF. Take whatever you needed to pop his wagon and double it. Fact is, Mephiston should keep well away from ghazzy. He ought to be chasing units he can wreck, like wound-allocated nobs. Unfortunately, past that, he runs out of things to wreck easy quite quickly. 30 boyz can tie him up easily.

Never run Ghaz alone. Run him in a BW with nobz or Mega-nobz. Mega-nobz are his speed and te fact you said it slows units down is both correct and incorrect. Yes technically he slows them but theoretically he doesn't. You dont get Ghaz out unless you are infront of the enemy so you hop out then charge. An no-one sticks Meph in a vehicle. You stick hime behind them out of LoS. 30 boys could tie up Ghazkull aswell. What happends when ghaz gets locked in with TH/SS terminators with a Libby in termy armour giving them prefered enemy. Your going down. Even without the Libby. Even if you charge and call the waaagh.

You misunderstand. I don't mean Ghaz in a vehicle all by his lonesome. You attach him to a unit, and then he detaches when he sees a juicy target and busts heads solo. Regroup later. Also, while i provided examples to clear up mephiston in a vehicle, I also provided examples for your mechwall alternative. I have seen mephiston in a vehicle, but he didn't start in it, mostly just hitched a ride after the original contents were dead or busy. I have seen him start in one before, but i won't go into it because the player wasn't exactly what you call a veteran, if you get my drift. And yes, Ghazzy can be tied up with thirty boyz, but because this is ghaz V. mephiston (or BA in general) i hardly see how that's relevent. And yes again, ghazzy can be killed by those hammernators with libby. But seeing how they cost 600-700 points plus ride, while Ghazzy plus ride costs 350, it sure seems like they ought to win, dontcha think?

BA Hammernators cost 225pts without a ride. Libby is another 125pts and he is not required. So hardly 600-700pts Throw in a Landraider and they become just under 500.

EDIT: Oh and Jidmah I guess what who we play against is different but I have seen nobz with ghaz run and they did not overkill at all. Maybe they do were you play but where i play they don't. But I guess thats just our local areas.

redkeyboard wrote:EDIT: Oh and Jidmah I guess what who we play against is different but I have seen nobz with ghaz run and they did not overkill at all. Maybe they do were you play but where i play they don't. But I guess thats just our local areas.

So, name one unit that shruggs off 7 S10 powerfist attacks to the face, but not an additional 12 S9 attacks or vice versa. And pick a unit that doesn't utterly paste the floor with nobz, like TH/SS terminators, GKT or hive tyrants do.

Local areas have nothing to do with it, unless your area allows units that mine doesn't.

Jidmah wrote:Thrakka is T5, W4 and +2 attacks on the charge. I simply assume your Mephiston stats as correct. Also, your math seems off:

Mephiston hits on 3+, wounds on 2+, saved on 2++, causing .67 wounds.
Thrakka hits on 4+, wounds on 2+, no saves, causing 2.91 6 wounds

Turn two
Mephiston hits on 3+, wounds on 2+, saved on 2++, causing .67 wounds.
Thrakka hits on 4+, wounds on 2+, no saves, causing 2.083 wounds, killing Mephiston (the fractions add up to exactly 5).

Potential Turn three
Mephiston hits on 3+, wounds on 2+, saved on 5++, causing 2.67 wounds, killing Thrakka (fractions add up to exactly 4).

Edit: Meh, reroll to hit, redoing math...

Edit2: Fixed it.

So I was over-estimating for Thrakka.

Either way, it's so close that a single roll either way is the entire combat. Sure, if we assume that Ghaz gets the assault, doesn't get shot at, and times the Waagh perfectly, he would win. Battles don't happen in a vacuum. More than likely, Mephiston and Ghaz would never fight, period, as it just doesn't make sense in a typical BA vs. Orc fight. Lootaboy seems to think that Ghaz is the be-all end-all, and all I'm trying to say is that it isn't that simple. I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they don't play horribly, as it is pretty simple to out-maneuver and call it a game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But Ghaz *does* have Eternal Warrior, right? It would be silly if he didn't.

Yeah ghaz has eternal. and you are right. If Mephiston didnt want to fight Ghaz he wouldn,t. he would just cast wings and fly off. with ghaz having slow and purpousful he would take on average 3 turns to reach where meph landed and then Meph could fly away again. Out running the BW is abit harder but still easily done.

MadmanMSU wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Thrakka is T5, W4 and +2 attacks on the charge. I simply assume your Mephiston stats as correct. Also, your math seems off:

Mephiston hits on 3+, wounds on 2+, saved on 2++, causing .67 wounds.
Thrakka hits on 4+, wounds on 2+, no saves, causing 2.91 6 wounds

Turn two
Mephiston hits on 3+, wounds on 2+, saved on 2++, causing .67 wounds.
Thrakka hits on 4+, wounds on 2+, no saves, causing 2.083 wounds, killing Mephiston (the fractions add up to exactly 5).

Potential Turn three
Mephiston hits on 3+, wounds on 2+, saved on 5++, causing 2.67 wounds, killing Thrakka (fractions add up to exactly 4).

Edit: Meh, reroll to hit, redoing math...

Edit2: Fixed it.

So I was over-estimating for Thrakka.

Either way, it's so close that a single roll either way is the entire combat. Sure, if we assume that Ghaz gets the assault, doesn't get shot at, and times the Waagh perfectly, he would win. Battles don't happen in a vacuum. More than likely, Mephiston and Ghaz would never fight, period, as it just doesn't make sense in a typical BA vs. Orc fight. Lootaboy seems to think that Ghaz is the be-all end-all, and all I'm trying to say is that it isn't that simple. I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they don't play horribly, as it is pretty simple to out-maneuver and call it a game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But Ghaz *does* have Eternal Warrior, right? It would be silly if he didn't.

That's why i was telling you mephiston should be chasing nobz, not ghaz. I was going to say that really, you should just probably keep Mephiston away from Ghaz, and stick to sure fights as opposed to risky ones, where you will most likely lose. But i figured that sence this discussion was about Ghaz vs. Mephiston, telling you that you should just go chase something else doesn't really answer anything, and would be irrelevent.

So your tip to use Ghaz against Meph is irrelivant as you have just said Meph can easily keep away from him. meanining that there is nothing to take out meph as Ghaz can't catch him.

redkeyboard wrote:So your tip to use Ghaz against Meph is irrelivant as you have just said Meph can easily keep away from him. meanining that there is nothing to take out meph as Ghaz can't catch him.

Please quote where I said that Meph can easily get away from Ghaz. I said you should avoid Ghaz, yes, but I did not say that mephiston can just run ghaz around in circles all he wants. Because how I'm seeing it, Mephiston has a 12" move range, and Ghaz in his battlewagon does as well. Seems like they can both keep up with each other. For example, people often say that with boyz, you should avoid purifiers, because it is a bad fight for them. Does this mean that boyz can easily outrun purifers Surely not.

Look, this is all really pointless. What I meant to get across is that if you are having problems with Mephiston, and you run battlewagon brigade, then you should throw in Ghaz if you can afford him, because he can stand head to head with Mephiston and will generally win. Then I went on later and said that you can also tie him up with thrity boyz, which would be a way to counter him if you were playing tide or kan wall. You could also shoot him with burnas or hell, even squigify him with Zogwort if you're feeling lucky. Perhaps I was a bit over-zealous with my praise for ghazzy in my first post, but fact is, Ghazzy beats Mephiston when he charges in on his Waaagh!, which is not impossible, nor terribly difficult to do. It's not by any stretch of the mind unrealistic for it to happen.