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Hi, I'm a new player, and I was simply wondering why did W40k seemed to attract more people than WHFB. I do not ask the question because I don't like 40k, it's simply because I don't see in it an inherent superiority to WHFB.
Most often than not, people are complaining about the rules of 40k (let's see if 6th ed will change that, but since most people are complaining about the rumours, probably not).
Also, most often than not, people complain about the fact that X codex or X build is OP while another is UP and blabla etc.
Plus, I do not see why W40k attract more people since most of the time, you spend 50 % of your budget on transports, and since most people play SM armies, 50 % of their budget on metal boxes.
Plus, why so much SM armies ? It's like if WoC had an army book for each of the Chaos God.
Anyway, I ain't complaining, it's just a lack of understanding and a little fear about seeing WHFB being killed off by its little brother.

/shrug Most likely that 40k at a casual level is cheaper to play and easier to get a painted army compleated, also 40k is a far more simple ruleset making learning the game easier.

The reason there is so many SM armies is simple they are cheap to collect, easy to paint and have come in every starter box. However it does lead to a game where its power armor on power armor most of the time (people always cite that 40k has much better fluff and then spend all there games fighting with other SM chapters)

As for 40k "killing" 40k it will never happen in fact in europe it is the dominant system and tends to attract older players who have more money to blow on the hobby.

Most often than not, people are complaining about the rules of 40k (let's see if 6th ed will change that, but since most people are complaining about the rumours, probably not).

People complain alot about fantasy as well, often times mentioning the random charge rates, magic, and some other things too. You missed the 7th vs 8th edition war.

Also, most often than not, people complain about the fact that X codex or X build is OP while another is UP and blabla etc.

Do the same for fantasy as well, though if you are really, Really, good you can play some of the stuff, I mean we hear OP stuff all the time (Teclis, Karios, Daemons in general) and UP (Wood Elves, something else)
This is not an uncommon thing, there is complaining within the fantasy community as well.

Plus, I do not see why W40k attract more people since most of the time, you spend 50 % of your budget on transports, and since most people play SM armies, 50 % of their budget on metal boxes.

It's like empire, you spend 50% of your cash on crappy state troops. You trade one thing for another.

Plus, why so much SM armies ? It's like if WoC had an army book for each of the Chaos God.

How is that a comparison? But it's because they sell well, look interesting, and play different enough from each other...Also, I honestly do want a WoC book for each of the chaos gods.

I play both anyways, both have good rules, nice models, and still interest me more than other wargaming sets.

At the end of the day, I think it is much cheaper to play 40k over fantasy, I know for a fact my space marine army is costing me less to put together than my mates empire army

I do not think it is cheaper to play 40k. To have a 2500pt Vampire Counts Army roughly costs $400-$500 and to make a 2000pt Chaos Space Marine army costs the same if not more.

Yeh i dont think 40k is necessarily cheaper. Especially if your spamming armor it gets very expensive. With the limitations in fantasy making it harder to spam special units it can be cheaper depending on the list

Yeah, 5th edition 40k, if you are not spamming armor, you are doing it wrong. Well it is possible, you will just be fighting an uphill battle.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Do the same for fantasy as well, though if you are really, Really, good you can play some of the stuff, I mean we hear OP stuff all the time (Teclis, Karios, Daemons in general) and UP (Wood Elves, something else)
This is not an uncommon thing, there is complaining within the fantasy community as well.

The difference in rules is pretty striking. You are mentioning 2 SCs in 2 armies. You really have to look pretty hard to find massive discrepancies. The best of best units in WHFB still aren't in the same category as some of the 40K stuff. The game is simply designed differently.

To me it seems like 40K makes money off of newest codex = best codex = people buying newer armies = $$$.

I think it also is determined by location. The midwest has constant multiday tourneys year round for fantasy, nothing like that for 40k.

DukeRustfield wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Do the same for fantasy as well, though if you are really, Really, good you can play some of the stuff, I mean we hear OP stuff all the time (Teclis, Karios, Daemons in general) and UP (Wood Elves, something else)
This is not an uncommon thing, there is complaining within the fantasy community as well.

The difference in rules is pretty striking. You are mentioning 2 SCs in 2 armies. You really have to look pretty hard to find massive discrepancies. The best of best units in WHFB still aren't in the same category as some of the 40K stuff. The game is simply designed differently.

To me it seems like 40K makes money off of newest codex = best codex = people buying newer armies = $$$.

Good thing most of you weren't here for 7th edition it seems, when the top was ruled by four codex's.

WHFB didn't start becoming far more balance till 8th and it's new codex's.

Khornate25 wrote:Hi, I'm a new player, and I was simply wondering why did W40k seemed to attract more people than WHFB. I do not ask the question because I don't like 40k, it's simply because I don't see in it an inherent superiority to WHFB.
Most often than not, people are complaining about the rules of 40k (let's see if 6th ed will change that, but since most people are complaining about the rumours, probably not).
Also, most often than not, people complain about the fact that X codex or X build is OP while another is UP and blabla etc.
Plus, I do not see why W40k attract more people since most of the time, you spend 50 % of your budget on transports, and since most people play SM armies, 50 % of their budget on metal boxes.
Plus, why so much SM armies ? It's like if WoC had an army book for each of the Chaos God.
Anyway, I ain't complaining, it's just a lack of understanding and a little fear about seeing WHFB being killed off by its little brother.

I play 40k because I like it being a scifi-ish game. I have enough fantasy games. I also play 40k because that's what my friends played starting out, and I'd rather be heavily invested in one game system than moderately invested across multiples. Even then, if I was going to branch out, it would be for FoW.

As far as the complaints go, 40k isn't as bad as some (most) people make it out to be. GK are powerful, but beatable. SW are powerful, but beatable. Hell, I play Nids amongst other armies, and I'm okay with playing against Grey Knights any day. I might not win, but I know I can.

Don't you spend 50% of your budget on your rank and file for Fantasy? I actually like painting my metal boxes, but I'll always be a IG player at heart, so it comes with the territory. Converse to your view, I groan every time I look at 10 more guardsmen that need to be painted and wish I had another tank to work on instead.

At least there is a small difference in the SM armies. I don't play Fantasy, but from my understanding, in the last edition of WHFB, the cheese army everyone played was Daemons.

Its the future, where everyone owns a jetpack.
Plain and simple.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Good thing most of you weren't here for 7th edition it seems, when the top was ruled by four codex's.

WHFB didn't start becoming far more balance till 8th and it's new codex's.

I was here. And I saw it compared to 40K and I still easily jumped ship. Because it was still laughably more balanced than 40K. 40K is list-building. You can see 75% of the time looking at the pages who will win the fight. Sure, one person could be an awesome general or the other guy a bone'ead or one of them get crazy dice rolls, but you can really see what's going on.

People talk about gimmicky strategies in WHFB. Like Guttstarring. Or Chosenstar. Or bray...stoning. Or A-bombing. But if you run with those gimmicks you'll maybe win 50% of the time. Cuz it almost always takes a lot of points and is lackluster against some builds. But 40K is built around creating those synergies. Radius this and stacking that for a bubble of whamo. And they are good enough that they become well known and you simply have to take counters in your all-comers armies.

I'm not saying one style is better than the other. It's totally choice. If you want uber balanced, play checkers.

Like I said, WHFB is beer and pretzels gaming and 40K is Coke and Doritos.

I like both at various times.

blood lance wrote:Its the future, where everyone owns a jetpack.
Plain and simple.

Yes...this...

And also...guns...

That being said, I am considering taking up Fantasy at some point in the future but I think for a lot of people its a big commitment to do both games and or armies at the same time so people choose one or the other...at least at the start...

I do dream of an all cavalry force though, since in the grim darkness of the future all horse riders looks mongollian!

blood lance wrote:Its the future, where everyone owns a jetpack.

And for some inexplicable reason, swords. Even though they got spaceships and super ranged weapons.

Cause most people are morons. Kidding! It's easier, I mean if your BS is 4 you need 3s, no modifiers. Moving? You're looking at 6 inches same for assaults, no Movement Value and no random charges. IMO fantasy is more strategy, deployment matters, movement phase is more important then any other phase. In 40k it's all about target priority.

40k just looks cooler for some people.

What's more awesome, an 8 foot tall superhuman in awesome armor slaying thousands of foes? Or whatever Fantasy has to offer?

Yeah, I like Fantasy more, but 40k has more widespread appeal. (GUNS! SWORDS! SUPERHUMANS!)

Well, it might look that way simply based on what you're perceiving.

By that I mean my friend went to school in london for a spell, and he told me over there fantasy is king, but back over here in american, 40k is most popular. Take it with a grain of salt but there might be something to that.

None of you are making any sense at all. Balance, strategy and all that stuff doesn't matter one bit. Think about it, when you started buying WHFB or 40K for the first time, did you have an extensive knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of each system? No, most likely you just thought the models looked cool.

That's what it is. You pick a game based on what model set looks really cool. All the system stuff comes later.

And because of that, the reason 40K sells the most becomes pretty clear - when people are first getting into a game then sci-fi models with really big guns appeals the most.

This also answers the mystery of why Space Marines sell the most. Well of course genetically engineered superhumans in power armour are going to be really popular.

sebster wrote:None of you are making any sense at all. Balance, strategy and all that stuff doesn't matter one bit. Think about it, when you started buying WHFB or 40K for the first time, did you have an extensive knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of each system? No, most likely you just thought the models looked cool.

That's what it is. You pick a game based on what model set looks really cool. All the system stuff comes later.

And because of that, the reason 40K sells the most becomes pretty clear - when people are first getting into a game then sci-fi models with really big guns appeals the most.

This also answers the mystery of why Space Marines sell the most. Well of course genetically engineered superhumans in power armour are going to be really popular.

I have never played a game system because I thought the models looked "cool" I always read a systems rule book first because not matter how cool the minis look if the game they are used in does not meet my needs then they are useless to me.

Jubear wrote:I have never played a game system because I thought the models looked "cool" I always read a systems rule book first because not matter how cool the minis look if the game they are used in does not meet my needs then they are useless to me.

I know there'd be at least one person coming in to say 'nuh uh'. And good for you that you did your research, and had the intelligence to perfectly capture exactly how a system would play just from the reading book (and presumably every single army book as well).

But go into a GW store. Look at the kids getting brought into the game. Look at how many are studiously studying the rules, and asking questions about them. And how many are just looking at the models and watching the minis get moved around. At best they get walked through a little mini game that plays absolutely nothing like an actual game ever would.

You are not the majority.

Because the younger audience it's aimed at can get behind guys in space in bulky armor with big guns.

Let 40k have all the kids. Keeps them away from Warhammer.

Jubear wrote:

sebster wrote:None of you are making any sense at all. Balance, strategy and all that stuff doesn't matter one bit. Think about it, when you started buying WHFB or 40K for the first time, did you have an extensive knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of each system? No, most likely you just thought the models looked cool.

That's what it is. You pick a game based on what model set looks really cool. All the system stuff comes later.

And because of that, the reason 40K sells the most becomes pretty clear - when people are first getting into a game then sci-fi models with really big guns appeals the most.

This also answers the mystery of why Space Marines sell the most. Well of course genetically engineered superhumans in power armour are going to be really popular.

I have never played a game system because I thought the models looked "cool" I always read a systems rule book first because not matter how cool the minis look if the game they are used in does not meet my needs then they are useless to me.

IDK while rules are extremely important I doubt a miniature wargame system would interest most people if their models consisted of different colored pieces of corn. You see models, you read rules, then you decide whether to invest.

I find that more children play 40k than adults. It could be a cultural thing since this younger generation is more tech savvy and so futuristic tech appeals to them more than chainmail and dragons.

I'm 27, and WFB is much more interesting to me than 40k. I absolutely love dragons, and all things dark ages/renaissance and what have you. I enjoy sci fi, but with the exception of Star Wars, I like medieval stories and games more.

So, between having a statistically more "mature" player base, and the actual setting of the game, WFB wins for me every time.

And like Sebster said, I got into it because I loved the models. I'm a painter first, a collector second and a gamer third.

Rivet wrote:I do not think it is cheaper to play 40k. To have a 2500pt Vampire Counts Army roughly costs $400-$500 and to make a 2000pt Chaos Space Marine army costs the same if not more.

Grey Knight Draigo +2 paladins = 500 pts IIRC xD

Shadowbrand wrote:Because the younger audience it's aimed at can get behind guys in space in bulky armor with big guns.

Let 40k have all the kids. Keeps them away from Warhammer.

Just remember that the 40k crowd draws in the players that eventually come over to the WHFB...so yes you can say let the kids have 40K but thats what eventually sells WHFB as they branch out looking for a new challenge, so I say don't keep them away from Warhammer, let them come and keep a good thing going. I personally started with WHFB and I think it has a draw for the older players as we grew up on D&D and LOTR which is all about Elves, Dwarfs, Orcs & Goblins and of course magic and monsters... but to say one is better than the other is for me anyways like comparing American Football to European Football both are sports but completely different rule sets with completely different styles, I say they both have their positives and negatives and both will have their die hard fans who won't play anything but.... So I wouldn't be to worried about WHFB being pushed out by 40K

Shadowbrand wrote:Because the younger audience it's aimed at can get behind guys in space in bulky armor with big guns.

Let 40k have all the kids. Keeps them away from Warhammer.

That's interesting, all the Fantasy players I've met here are actually younger and now that I actually think about it, they play both, 40k and Fantasy. I don't think I know anyone who plays Fantasy exclusively.

In most cases where comparable examples exist, the Sci-Fi genre will outsell the fantasy genre.

The same was true with Rackham's mini lines as well.

Warhammer is no exception.

DukeRustfield wrote:
I was here. And I saw it compared to 40K and I still easily jumped ship. Because it was still laughably more balanced than 40K. 40K is list-building. You can see 75% of the time looking at the pages who will win the fight. Sure, one person could be an awesome general or the other guy a bone'ead or one of them get crazy dice rolls, but you can really see what's going on.

People talk about gimmicky strategies in WHFB. Like Guttstarring. Or Chosenstar. Or bray...stoning. Or A-bombing. But if you run with those gimmicks you'll maybe win 50% of the time. Cuz it almost always takes a lot of points and is lackluster against some builds. But 40K is built around creating those synergies. Radius this and stacking that for a bubble of whamo. And they are good enough that they become well known and you simply have to take counters in your all-comers armies.

I'm not saying one style is better than the other. It's totally choice. If you want uber balanced, play checkers.

Like I said, WHFB is beer and pretzels gaming and 40K is Coke and Doritos.

I like both at various times.

If you were there then you should have seen that if you didn't play Vampire Counts, Demons or Dark elves you might as well have not even brought your units to the table. Competitive gaming tends to show how balanced a system is and for probably over a year the top results were virtually always Demons, Demons, Vampires, Dark Elf, Dark Elf, Vampires, Demon, Demon, Demon, Demon, Demon, Demon, Demon, Wood Elves??, Demon, Demon.

7th edition was in no way shape or form more balanced than 40k at that time. 40k only really started becoming really imbalanced after Imperial Guard in 5th edition (Which is now basically 7th ed demons with Gk, Gk, Gk, SW, IG, etc)

I've played both 40k and WFB competitively for over a decade and talking about "the better general" comment is always such BS.. Why? Because its arrogant and its a code word a lot of times for a specific player thinking they're a better general than their opponent. If two players are equally skilled then the player with the better army will win much more often which is the definition of imbalance. Who cares if a better general can beat some newbie, yeah you should be able to.. that's not very special

Even in 8th there are certain builds that just stomp heads in and there isn't much you can do about it if you're playing a lower tier list

keisukekun wrote:
IDK while rules are extremely important I doubt a miniature wargame system would interest most people if their models consisted of different colored pieces of corn. You see models, you read rules, then you decide whether to invest.

Then explain the growing popularity of systems like Tomorrow's War and others from companies that only sell rules and don't make minis for those games at all. From my experience, this is true of many/most historicals, too.