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2012/06/02 16:36:43
Subject: Why is the ACLU always portrayed as bad guys?
So in alot of Media and even fiction, The ACLU are always portrayed as bad guys.
For those across the pond, The ACLU stands for the "AMerican Civil Liberties Union" It is a bi-partisan group that defends the rights of people, Such as their right to march and right to religious freedom.
They are basically lawyers who protect you from GOVT discrimination,or try.
But no matter where i lok i always see them portrayed as some group that is evil and to be associated with it is evil.
Why is that?
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2012/06/02 17:11:47
Subject: Re:Why is the ACLU always portrayed as bad guys?
Because there are a lot of people who, in the end, want to restrict the rights of others, and the ACLU will thus get in their way.
Also, the ACLU is made up of lawyers, and lawyers are easy to make fun of.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2012/06/02 17:56:04
Subject: Why is the ACLU always portrayed as bad guys?
Corpsesarefun wrote:I haven't even heard of them let alone seen them regularly portrayed as the bad guys.
The American Civil Liberties Union is a collection of lawyers who attempt to defend the civil rights of US citizens, and of foreign nationals or immigrants in the USA.
It's really not surprising that you haven't heard of them.
alarmingrick wrote:It's a Yankee thing.
Most assuredly not. There's plenty of non-Yankee ACLU members. Friggin' arrogant northeasterners
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/02 18:51:13
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2012/06/02 20:18:57
Subject: Why is the ACLU always portrayed as bad guys?
The problem is that a lot of American's just don't like lawyers. So that's problem 1. Problem 2, is that the ACLU is at times regarded as obstructionist, defending guilty parties over legal technicalities. So not only are they lawyers, they're defense lawyers. Despite the legal maxim, most people assume that someone being tried is guilty (unless they're a famus R&B singer or a football player or a pop singer who molests children). Lastly, they often involve themselves in politically charged cases which means people end up hating them or loving them along political lines.
But they're not always the bad guys. They were neutral in A Time to Kill
Plus they do silly things like takign up a georgia womans case to get all the contruction signs in Atlanta changed from "men at work" to "construction work ahead" on the charge of "discrimination"
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2012/06/02 21:03:45
Subject: Why is the ACLU always portrayed as bad guys?
Discrimination having a cultural dimension, I can see that being tried in court. Anyway, isn't the sillyness on the side of the City who refused to do the change, once requested, when they should've known that they could be sued and lose over it?
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
2012/06/02 21:07:39
Subject: Why is the ACLU always portrayed as bad guys?
Kovnik Obama wrote:Discrimination having a cultural dimension, I can see that being tried in court. Anyway, isn't the sillyness on the side of the City who refused to do the change, once requested, when they should've known that they could be sued and lose over it?
Yeah because the government should go around spending millions to fix already printed signs because someone who has nothing to do with construction is so easily offended.
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
2012/06/02 21:18:24
Subject: Why is the ACLU always portrayed as bad guys?
I know it's Fox and a lotofpeople hate it, but research the cases listed.
Preemptively acknowledging that the source you cite isn't a good one doesn't make the source a better one. And can't do much research on ''The ACLU endorses virtual child pornography and has defended the right of people to obtain real child porn.'' Typing something like that on ther Internet will only bring up opinion peices of the same level of crazyness...
And this is from batgak crazy Bill O'Reilly. There's Fox crazy, then there's O'Reilly crazy, and then, a long long way off the loony chart, there's Beck crazy. No place on that chart is enviable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/02 21:23:34
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
2012/06/02 21:21:24
Subject: Re:Why is the ACLU always portrayed as bad guys?
Kovnik Obama wrote:Discrimination having a cultural dimension, I can see that being tried in court. Anyway, isn't the sillyness on the side of the City who refused to do the change, once requested, when they should've known that they could be sued and lose over it?
Yeah because the government should go around spending millions to fix already printed signs because someone who has nothing to do with construction is so easily offended.
The Criminal Liberties Union doesn't care about taxpayerss as long as they get publicity.
2012/06/02 21:22:25
Subject: Re:Why is the ACLU always portrayed as bad guys?
Kovnik Obama wrote:Discrimination having a cultural dimension, I can see that being tried in court. Anyway, isn't the sillyness on the side of the City who refused to do the change, once requested, when they should've known that they could be sued and lose over it?
Yeah because the government should go around spending millions to fix already printed signs because someone who has nothing to do with construction is so easily offended.
Maybe they could've offered to alter the prints and phase out gradually the previous signs? And we're talking about Atlanta here : I doub that that city needs 'millions' in 'Under Construction' signs...
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
2012/06/02 21:23:35
Subject: Why is the ACLU always portrayed as bad guys?
I know it's Fox and a lotofpeople hate it, but research the cases listed.
Preemptively acknowledging that the source you cite isn't a good one doesn't make the source a better one. And can't do much research on ''The ACLU endorses virtual child pornography and has defended the right of people to obtain real child porn.'' Typing something like that on ther Internet will only bring up opinion peices of the same level of crazyness...
And this is from batgak crazy Bill O'Reilly. There's Fox crazy, then there's O'Reilly crazy, and then, a long long way off the chart, there's Beck crazy. No place on that chart is enviable.
Saying you aren't even going to bother researching information proving my point frames what is wrong with ACLU supporters nicely.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No point in further conversation here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/02 21:25:05
2012/06/02 21:27:12
Subject: Re:Why is the ACLU always portrayed as bad guys?
No, I'm saying that as given, there's no (good) information to be obtained from the searches, as it's already biased as hell. Give me access to the cases, and I'll see. Otherwise, you'r banking on O'Reilly's credibility, and the guy doesn't have any. Not a single quantum. I would sooner listen to the political advice of a slowed chimp addicted to cocaine I had just found on the sidewalk than to O'Reilly.
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
2012/06/02 23:44:54
Subject: Re:Why is the ACLU always portrayed as bad guys?
Relapse wrote:Saying you aren't even going to bother researching information
Actually, I did.
FOX news isn't research. It's taking a dump on your brain.
But this is the official stance of the ACLU on child porn:
Ira Glasser, Executive Director of ACLU wrote:Anyone who uses a child in pornography is violating the law and should be prosecuted, period.
The ACLU takes a very strong stance against censorship. However, child pornography is sexually exploitative of the children (thus violating their civil liberties), and so the ACLU supports prosecution those who produce child porn that involves real children.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/02 23:47:20
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2012/06/02 23:53:14
Subject: Why is the ACLU always portrayed as bad guys?
The ACLUs client is the Bill of Rights, not any particular person or group. When the government infringes on the basic rights of citizens, the ACLU is there. We do not believe that you can pick and choose when to uphold rights. If a right can be taken away from one person, it can be taken away from anyone. When you deny a right to someone with whom you disagree, you pave the way for that right to be denied to yourself or someone you strongly support. For example, the principle by which the Ku Klux Klan has the right to march is the same one that allows civil rights activists to march against racism. While the ACLU condemns all forms of racism. we defend the right of racists to speak their minds as the only means of preserving your right to speak your mind.
[2] You're all a bunch of liberals, aren't you?
The ACLU is a nonpartisan group. We have defended people all across the political spectrum, from the Moral Majority and Oliver North to John Scopes and communists. The ACLU strongly supports women's right to choose abortion, yet we have also assisted anti-abortion activists when police used excessive force while arresting them. The ACLU has won support from women's groups for our stand on women's rights, but has angered some feminists for our First Amendment stand on pornography.
[3] Why does the ACLU support pornography? Why are you in favor of child porn?
The ACLU does not support pornography. But we do oppose virtually all forms of censorship. Possessing books or films should not make one a criminal. Once society starts censoring "bad" ideas, it becomes very difficult to draw the line. Your idea of what is offensive may be a lot different from your neighbors. The ACLU takes a very purist approach in opposing censorship. Our policy is that possessing pornographic material should not itself be a crime. The best way to combat child pornography is for the government to prosecute those who exploit children by making pornography and we strongly agree with the enforcement of such prosecutions.
[4] Why doesn't the ACLU support gun ownership/gun control?
In practice, the ACLU neither advocates nor opposes proposed gun control legislation; we don't get involved. The Second Amendment talks of guns in regard to militias "needing guns to provide security but makes no reference to individual ownership of guns. The ACLU agrees with the U.S. Supreme Court interpretation that there is no unrestricted right for individuals to own guns under the federal Constitution. Therefore, the government does have the right to regulate private gun ownership. Our policy on gun control, like all ACLU policies, was set by the Board of Directors, who are a group of ACLU members. the U.S. Supreme Court interpretation that there is no unrestricted right for individuals to own guns under the federal Constitution. Therefore, the government does have the right to regulate private gun ownership. Our policy on gun control, like all ACLU policies, was set by the Board of Directors, who are a group of ACLU members.
[5] Why does the ACLU support the rights of criminals but not victims of crime?
The ACLU supports everybody's rights. Citizens are outraged by crime and understandably want criminals caught and prosecuted. Regardless of our concerns about crime victims, the ACLU believes that the rights to fair treatment and due process must be respected for people accused of crimes. Respecting these rights does not cause crime, nor does it hinder police from pursuing criminals. It should, and does in fact, cause police to avoid sloppy procedures.
[6] Why is the ACLU against God/Christianity/the Bible?
The ACLU strongly supports our country's guarantee that all people have the right to practice their own religion, as well as the right not to practice any religion. The best way to ensure religious freedom for all is to make sure that the government maintains a position of neutrality when it comes to religion. The ACLU strongly supports religious freedom and the separation of church and state so that people may practice their religion -- just not with government funding or sponsorship. This simple principle in no way banishes or weakens religion. It only means that people shouldn't have a particular religion forced on them, even if most other people in a community support that religion.
[7] Why is the ACLU against drug testing of employees?
The ACLU believes that employers have the right to discipline and fire workers who fail to perform on the job. However, the ACLU does oppose indiscriminate drug testing because the process is unfair, unnecessary and violates privacy rights. Further, drug tests do not measure impaired job performance. A positive drug test simply indicates that a person may have taken drugs at some time in the past--not that they are failing to perform properly in their assigned work. And the accuracy of some drug tests is notoriously unreliable.
[8] Why does the ACLU help rapists and child molesters?
Of course, the ACLU supports the prosecution and conviction of rapists and child molesters. They should receive appropriated punishment, especially for repeat offenders. But, like all convicted felons, they are entitled to some basic constitutional protections. In this regard the ACLU opposes sex offender notification and civil commitment laws, which punish offenders long-after they have completed their sentences. If our sentencing laws concerning sex offenders need revision, then that should be explored, but punishing people after they have served their debt to society is unconstitutional and bad public policy.
[9] Why doesn't the ACLU want patients to know whether their doctor or dentist has AIDS?
The ACLU supports increased AIDS treatment programs and education about AIDS. In the case of doctors and dentists'. the ACLU supports rigorous standards for disease control in handling medical equipment. That is what prevents the spread of AIDS. The ACLU opposes forced testing of people for AIDS as unnecessary, wasteful of scarce resources, and of extremely limited public health value. Force testing of doctors and dentists for AIDS will be used to discriminate against FHV-positive doctors and dentists. It feeds public hysteria about the disease without working to halt its spread.
[10] Does the ACLU support campaign finance reform?
Yes, the ACLU supports the idea of providing public financing to assist candidates running for I office. The ACLU believes that providing all candidates with adequate funding to advertise on television, mail information, and travel, will create a more equitable political system. However, the ACLU opposes the idea of putting contribution and spending limits on citizens and candidates because doing so would limit free speech rights.
Essentially, the ACLU is very close to the strongest leaning libertarian political group in the US. Because a lot of people don't necessarily agree with libertarianism (despite liking how it sounds on first glance), it gets a lot of flak for t his.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/06/03 02:43:05
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2012/06/03 00:00:19
Subject: Re:Why is the ACLU always portrayed as bad guys?
-Warrantless Wiretapping
-Warrantless searching of your emails.
-SOPA/PIPA/Internet Censorship
-Detention and searches without probable cause.
-Torture
Clearly they are monsters.
2012/06/03 00:21:53
Subject: Why is the ACLU always portrayed as bad guys?
-Warrantless Wiretapping
-Warrantless searching of your emails.
-SOPA/PIPA/Internet Censorship
-Detention and searches without probable cause.
-Torture
Clearly they are monsters.
"You're with them, that must mean you hate Amercia!!!"
Is pretty much how these arguments often end up.
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1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
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2012/06/03 01:27:58
Subject: Why is the ACLU always portrayed as bad guys?
[7] Why is the ACLU against drug testing of employees?
The ACLU believes that employers have the right to discipline and fire workers who fail to perform on the job. However, the ACLU does oppose indiscriminate drug testing because the process is unfair, unnecessary and violates privacy rights. Further, drug tests do not measure impaired job performance. A positive drug test simply indicates that a person may have taken drugs at some time in the past--not that they are failing to perform properly in their assigned work. And the accuracy of some drug tests is notoriously unreliable.
I find this particular point a bit crap, tbh. ALL employers who utilize drug testing send all samples to a medical facility to be processed. If one comes up "hot" it goes before a doctor. If that doctor says, "that's a prescription drug", then the same facility finds and contacts that person's physician to find out if whatever it is has been prescribed. If not, then employer notified, and punitive actions may ensue.
Most companies who have a drug testing policy are ones that desire to maintain a "good" reputation in the area/country/global scene. One way of "showing" that you are a company of character, is to test and eliminate those who use illegal substances. I'm not suggesting that companies or corporations need to be policing agencies, but if they have someone who uses, they should be well within their rights to cut ties to that person before something potentially harmful happens; not that they need to "rat" employees out to actual authorities for full legal prosecution.
2012/06/03 01:33:38
Subject: Why is the ACLU always portrayed as bad guys?
Using in the privacy of your home is completely different than showing up impaired though. And without probably cause an employer should not have the right to test for things that you may or may not do in your own home on your own time.
To me drug testing without cause is right up there with asking for your Facebook password so that they can see what you are doing on your free time.
I am fine with employers that have a "if there is a workplace accident then there will be a test on the spot" kind of policies.
2012/06/03 01:53:44
Subject: Why is the ACLU always portrayed as bad guys?
[7] Why is the ACLU against drug testing of employees?
The ACLU believes that employers have the right to discipline and fire workers who fail to perform on the job. However, the ACLU does oppose indiscriminate drug testing because the process is unfair, unnecessary and violates privacy rights. Further, drug tests do not measure impaired job performance. A positive drug test simply indicates that a person may have taken drugs at some time in the past--not that they are failing to perform properly in their assigned work. And the accuracy of some drug tests is notoriously unreliable.
I find this particular point a bit crap, tbh. ALL employers who utilize drug testing send all samples to a medical facility to be processed. If one comes up "hot" it goes before a doctor. If that doctor says, "that's a prescription drug", then the same facility finds and contacts that person's physician to find out if whatever it is has been prescribed. If not, then employer notified, and punitive actions may ensue.
Most companies who have a drug testing policy are ones that desire to maintain a "good" reputation in the area/country/global scene. One way of "showing" that you are a company of character, is to test and eliminate those who use illegal substances. I'm not suggesting that companies or corporations need to be policing agencies, but if they have someone who uses, they should be well within their rights to cut ties to that person before something potentially harmful happens; not that they need to "rat" employees out to actual authorities for full legal prosecution.
Bolded the bit you missed. But regardless, what you do in your own time is your own choice, I guess I missed the memo that said your employers have full rights over you 24 hours a day, funny really because you don't get paid for 24 hour shifts. Besides if you know your onions there are many drugs which don't show up very quickly after use (know of a fair few soldiers who do cocaine), or don't show up at all (dimethyltryptamine for example). These tend to be far worse than an occasional spliff. As for the "that's a prescription drug", show me how they can tell the difference between heroin and other opiates, like cocodimol or hyrocodone.
2012/06/03 02:09:08
Subject: Re:Why is the ACLU always portrayed as bad guys?
but if they have someone who uses, they should be well within their rights to cut ties to that person before something potentially harmful happens.
An employer as no regards to your private life whatsoever. Problematic behavior can be well monitored, entirely in the workplace, without the need to resort to invasive measures.
This only serves the employer in allowing him more power over his employees. Why do you think employees that steal stuff get away with it for so long before they get caught? Because employers don't keep track of material? Of course they do, they do monthly. They know about the those that steal, those that cut hours short, those that leaves for hours on weekends because they are the supervisors, but won't fire them over most of the little things that are done. They'll keep those on track for anytime they need to fire you on a whim, tho.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/03 02:09:36
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
2012/06/03 04:42:37
Subject: Why is the ACLU always portrayed as bad guys?
Relapse wrote:No point in further conversation here.
You don't seem to presently be capable of a functional conversation on this subject.
I think some of the cases they take are silly , but IMO they're one of the closest things we have to a pure good guy organization in politics. If I had gone into law, I would never make any money, because I'd be working for them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/03 04:43:15
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Kovnik Obama wrote:Discrimination having a cultural dimension, I can see that being tried in court. Anyway, isn't the sillyness on the side of the City who refused to do the change, once requested, when they should've known that they could be sued and lose over it?
Yeah because the government should go around spending millions to fix already printed signs because someone who has nothing to do with construction is so easily offended.
Maybe they could've offered to alter the prints and phase out gradually the previous signs? And we're talking about Atlanta here : I doub that that city needs 'millions' in 'Under Construction' signs...
Maybe they did? Atlanta is one city, if you had to replace every sign in the country then yes it would be millions. People need to stop looking for reasons to be insulted. "Those are people hole covers, not manhole covers!"
The ACLU does some good things and some things I find pretty ridiculous. The problem I have is that most of the good and important issues seam to go to the side while the more stupid and frivolous issues get more press.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/03 04:56:11
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma