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Hey everyone, I have a question about how the Primarchs were with their brothers, and their father. Were they good, bad, or undecided. I know Curze was close to no one, and the Lion and Russ hate eachother, and Horus was the Emporers favorite. Anyothers I should know about.

Dorn and Horus were very good friends I think

Lion and Russ were more like rivals, at least Russ viewed it as a rivalry, Lion might very well have just rolled with it so Russ would some day support him in being warmaster. Ferrus and Fulgrim were pretty good friends until Ferrus Manus lost his head, besides Fulgrim most of the traitor primarchs hated everyone or only cared for Horus.

Horus was actually close to Sanguinius, he considered him his dearest, most beloved brother in one of the earlier HH novels, something like that anyways.

Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus were very close, both forging a great weapon for each other.

I wouldn't say Lion and Russ hated each other, I believe that whilst they didn't particularly like each other there was a grudging mutual respect between them.

Russ and Magnus is another story....

Magnus was also particularly close with Horus

Russ and Lion where friends who where rivals. So says the Space Wolves codex

Horus was friends with everyone, although closer to some more than others, like Sanguinus, Dorn, Magnus, and Fulgrim.

There was always a pervading brotherly camaraderie, I think the only few who didn't feal that were Curze, because he has always been alone, and Mortarion, because he was just so grim.

Curze was surely a loose cannon , Alpharius and Omegon maybe not even known as twins to the others and a bit of the secretive kind, Perturabo and Mortarion not really having any friends, Ferrus and Vulkan rather respecting a brother than friends , Corax maybe to shadowy and not falling for Horus "comraderie",
Gulliman to busy with his tome, Angron never calm enough to get along, Fulgrim once friends with Ferrus (or just deeming Ferrus ugly enough to make himself looking extraordinary in comparision), The Lion more of a lonely character, Russ to uncivilized for some and except getting along with the Lion he had a problem with Magnus, Magnus as a psyker having a few uneasy relations but cared for Horus, Dorn friends with some but pure rivalry with Perturabo, Lorgar as the one to have his lunch money stolen and deifiying his father plus his distaste for Gulliman, Jaghatai without much fluff , Sanguinius maybe well liked by all and friends with Horus , Primarchs 2 and 11 so despised they forgot about them.

Gulliman was always somewhat aloof to the others because he ran and developed his "own" empire alongside the Imperium. Best I would say is that Gulliman probably viewed his brothers as somewhat short sighted, as Gulliman liked to focus more on Empire and structure building than just conquest.

I don't think I've read a heresy book yet that refers to Guilliman as being aloof. He may not have been around in as many conquests with his brothers, but it doesn't mean they didn't like him. Most of the time he is referenced its done with a deal of respect. However while he may have been "friends" with about half of them (mostly those who turn out to be loyalist) he doesn't share a bond of "best friend" with any of them. Guilliman, Dorn, Russ, and Ferrus were pretty close though.

Ignatius wrote:I don't think I've read a heresy book yet that refers to Guilliman as being aloof. He may not have been around in as many conquests with his brothers, but it doesn't mean they didn't like him. Most of the time he is referenced its done with a deal of respect. However while he may have been "friends" with about half of them (mostly those who turn out to be loyalist) he doesn't share a bond of "best friend" with any of them. Guilliman, Dorn, Russ, and Ferrus were pretty close though.

Guiliman was well respected by his brothers. He did have friends and rivals. He was smart in the way he handled his own empire and when found by the emperor he easily incorperated it into the imperial fold. His conquest may not have been as many as those of Horus but, he was a sound tactican. The fact that Logar bore a grudge against him is no suprise when your consider that Guiliman was there when he was chastized by the emperor. Also, he was a huge threat to Horus. Which is why Horus sent Logar to settle his grudge and destory the XIII. Guiliman managed to hold the imperium together in the years following the heresy. Which attributes as why the chaos legions dispise the Ultra Marines so. And, Guiliman technically isn't dead. He's in stacis.

It's fan-made but personally it's too good not to take a look at:

http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/V.html

A whole breakdown of the primarchs as they relate to the major arcana of the tarot, including all of their relationships with one another. It's been incredibly accurate in its predictions of primarch interactions since the Heresy series began.

Kiryu Mk 3 wrote:

Ignatius wrote:I don't think I've read a heresy book yet that refers to Guilliman as being aloof. He may not have been around in as many conquests with his brothers, but it doesn't mean they didn't like him. Most of the time he is referenced its done with a deal of respect. However while he may have been "friends" with about half of them (mostly those who turn out to be loyalist) he doesn't share a bond of "best friend" with any of them. Guilliman, Dorn, Russ, and Ferrus were pretty close though.

Guiliman was well respected by his brothers. He did have friends and rivals. He was smart in the way he handled his own empire and when found by the emperor he easily incorperated it into the imperial fold. His conquest may not have been as many as those of Horus but, he was a sound tactican. The fact that Logar bore a grudge against him is no suprise when your consider that Guiliman was there when he was chastized by the emperor. Also, he was a huge threat to Horus. Which is why Horus sent Logar to settle his grudge and destory the XIII. Guiliman managed to hold the imperium together in the years following the heresy. Which attributes as why the chaos legions dispise the Ultra Marines so. And, Guiliman technically isn't dead. He's in stacis.

I have no fault with anything you've said. I think people get on the ultramarine and Guilliman hate bandwagon a little too quickly. I just finished Know No Fear and Guilliman is great in it. He's smart, dedicated, rational, and he's even got a sense of humor too. He's what a primarch is supposed to be. And I like to believe he is healing (even in stasis). He is a primarch after all

Alpharius Omegon got along with Horus (Horus was the first one to meet - one of - them), and they ended up being at odds with Guilliman and Dorn (with one saying Alpharius's tactics being unsound and ineffective and the other saying they weren't "manly"). They probably would have gotten along with Curze, Corax, and perhaps Khan except Alpharius Omegon never met any of them. In fact, I believe the only other primarchs Alpharius Omegon ever interacted with pre heresy were Horus, Guilliman, and Dorn.

jareddm wrote:It's fan-made but personally it's too good not to take a look at:

http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/V.html

A whole breakdown of the primarchs as they relate to the major arcana of the tarot, including all of their relationships with one another. It's been incredibly accurate in its predictions of primarch interactions since the Heresy series began.

Very, very interesting. Thanks for bringing this up, jared.

I had read some fan speculation relating the Primarchs to astrology and the arcana, but nothing as comprehensive and detailed as this. Heck, it makes the connection almost impossible to deny!

I wonder if this is something the HH authors have introduced or if it was GWs plan all along...

their was either mutual respect between them or only a love a brother could have for his brother. But everyone liked Sanguinius, Horus even thought he should have been Warmaster claiming before he fell to chaos, "He (Sanquinius) was the best of us all. It should have been him."

BrotherGnaeus wrote:their was either mutual respect between them or only a love a brother could have for his brother. But everyone liked Sanguinius, Horus even thought he should have been Warmaster claiming before he fell to chaos, "He (Sanquinius) was the best of us all. It should have been him."

Of course, he later changed his mind and killed Sanguinius with ease.

I know Khan and Russ where close because of the similarities between their cultures.
And Purutabo and Dorn where rivals because the iron warriors where siege masters and the imperial fists where adept and building static defenses.

Besides Horus, who did the Emperor have good relationships with?

Agent_Tremolo wrote:

jareddm wrote:It's fan-made but personally it's too good not to take a look at:

http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/V.html

A whole breakdown of the primarchs as they relate to the major arcana of the tarot, including all of their relationships with one another. It's been incredibly accurate in its predictions of primarch interactions since the Heresy series began.

Very, very interesting. Thanks for bringing this up, jared.

I had read some fan speculation relating the Primarchs to astrology and the arcana, but nothing as comprehensive and detailed as this. Heck, it makes the connection almost impossible to deny!

I wonder if this is something the HH authors have introduced or if it was GWs plan all along...

Glad to see you like it. The fact that it predates the majority of the HH books gives it even more strength.
What I find especially intriguing is the extrapolation it provides for the missing primarchs. Not so much in why they're missing, but in who they were and how they might have gotten along with others, which I find far more interesting.

Great White wrote:Besides Horus, who did the Emperor have good relationships with?

Magnus and Sanguinus had a fairly good relationship with the big E. Dorn I think did, and Lorgar I believe did as well until he was humiliated by the big E.

The emperor though never truly seemed to play favorites to one primarch over the other. He respected each of his sons as individuals. His interactions with Corax show this. He could have simply killed Logar for what he did. And notice, the two forgotten primarchs aren't forgotten. More that they're just not spoken of.

With regards to Guilliman; the book Know No Fear seemed to give him a relatively placid relationship to most of his brothers spare four of them whom he named the "Dauntless Few". They are, in no particular order, Dorn, Sanguinus, Ferrus Manus and Leman Russ. The concept being that he could achieve anything with any of these four in any configuration. I think it's fair to then assume that he got on best with these four beyond all others.

Out of all the primarchs, Kurze and Mortarion seem the most aloof, the most distant and detached.

Ignatius wrote:

Kiryu Mk 3 wrote:

Ignatius wrote:I don't think I've read a heresy book yet that refers to Guilliman as being aloof. He may not have been around in as many conquests with his brothers, but it doesn't mean they didn't like him. Most of the time he is referenced its done with a deal of respect. However while he may have been "friends" with about half of them (mostly those who turn out to be loyalist) he doesn't share a bond of "best friend" with any of them. Guilliman, Dorn, Russ, and Ferrus were pretty close though.

Guiliman was well respected by his brothers. He did have friends and rivals. He was smart in the way he handled his own empire and when found by the emperor he easily incorperated it into the imperial fold. His conquest may not have been as many as those of Horus but, he was a sound tactican. The fact that Logar bore a grudge against him is no suprise when your consider that Guiliman was there when he was chastized by the emperor. Also, he was a huge threat to Horus. Which is why Horus sent Logar to settle his grudge and destory the XIII. Guiliman managed to hold the imperium together in the years following the heresy. Which attributes as why the chaos legions dispise the Ultra Marines so. And, Guiliman technically isn't dead. He's in stacis.

I have no fault with anything you've said. I think people get on the ultramarine and Guilliman hate bandwagon a little too quickly. I just finished Know No Fear and Guilliman is great in it. He's smart, dedicated, rational, and he's even got a sense of humor too. He's what a primarch is supposed to be. And I like to believe he is healing (even in stasis). He is a primarch after all

Guilliman gets a lot of crap because players hate the Ultramarines for having the gall to be chosen by Games Workshop as the flagship chapter. They've hated them for years, long, long before Matt Ward ever wrote a codex.

Personally I think he's a rather intriguing character, based on what he did (wrote the Codex, followed the Emperor unflinchingly) and what he didn't do (take the Emperor's place). Of course, a lot of this comes from the fact that the fluff established the Emperor was stuck in the Golden Throne and the Imperium is run by a corrupt Council long before Guilliman was included in the fluff and the fluff established what/who the Primarchs were. So Guilliman not taking the Emperor's place is sort of a byproduct, not a planned result, lol.

Given that we have so little fluff about Guilliman from the Heresy era, it's hard to tell what his relationships with his brothers were. We know Lorgar hated him, but from all appearances, Guilliman just sorta pitied Lorgar for being so weak. Just based on his personality type, he probably didn't have any close friends, but at the same time he probably didn't have any real enemies. Several primarchs so far have commented that Guilliman could have/should have been Warmaster. But his success definitely bred some jealousy. You can see it from Lion (whose paranoid delusions become grander as we go along), and eventually it surfaces with Horus as he's being turned to Chaos. Lorgar was definitely jealous of Guilliman, but Lorgar had an entire magazine stand full of issues.

On the topic of which primarch was the most successful, it's sort of hard to tell. An apparent lack of coordination between BL authors and between the BL and old fluff means that no less than four primarchs have been credited with achieving the most victories in the Great Crusade, lol. Horus, Russ, Lion and Guilliman that I can recall off the top of my head. Now, it's entirely possible that it's intentional, and that we're supposed to see how the various Legions are convinced they are so great and hold these misconceptions as truths. However, every time I try to suggest that there's a layer of complexity and subtlety to the greater story, I get shot down, heh.

The problem with the older fluff was that it was in the early stages of the game. But, it gave some illumination into the back story. The BL aruthors are a lot of guys who've been writing and playing the game for years. The Horus Heresy novels though shed a lot of light into the cursade and the hersey itself. I do like the fact that they hint at the 2 forgotten primarchs.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

Kiryu Mk 3 wrote:

Ignatius wrote:I don't think I've read a heresy book yet that refers to Guilliman as being aloof. He may not have been around in as many conquests with his brothers, but it doesn't mean they didn't like him. Most of the time he is referenced its done with a deal of respect. However while he may have been "friends" with about half of them (mostly those who turn out to be loyalist) he doesn't share a bond of "best friend" with any of them. Guilliman, Dorn, Russ, and Ferrus were pretty close though.

Guiliman was well respected by his brothers. He did have friends and rivals. He was smart in the way he handled his own empire and when found by the emperor he easily incorperated it into the imperial fold. His conquest may not have been as many as those of Horus but, he was a sound tactican. The fact that Logar bore a grudge against him is no suprise when your consider that Guiliman was there when he was chastized by the emperor. Also, he was a huge threat to Horus. Which is why Horus sent Logar to settle his grudge and destory the XIII. Guiliman managed to hold the imperium together in the years following the heresy. Which attributes as why the chaos legions dispise the Ultra Marines so. And, Guiliman technically isn't dead. He's in stacis.

I have no fault with anything you've said. I think people get on the ultramarine and Guilliman hate bandwagon a little too quickly. I just finished Know No Fear and Guilliman is great in it. He's smart, dedicated, rational, and he's even got a sense of humor too. He's what a primarch is supposed to be. And I like to believe he is healing (even in stasis). He is a primarch after all

Guilliman gets a lot of crap because players hate the Ultramarines for having the gall to be chosen by Games Workshop as the flagship chapter. They've hated them for years, long, long before Matt Ward ever wrote a codex.

Personally I think he's a rather intriguing character, based on what he did (wrote the Codex, followed the Emperor unflinchingly) and what he didn't do (take the Emperor's place). Of course, a lot of this comes from the fact that the fluff established the Emperor was stuck in the Golden Throne and the Imperium is run by a corrupt Council long before Guilliman was included in the fluff and the fluff established what/who the Primarchs were. So Guilliman not taking the Emperor's place is sort of a byproduct, not a planned result, lol.

Given that we have so little fluff about Guilliman from the Heresy era, it's hard to tell what his relationships with his brothers were. We know Lorgar hated him, but from all appearances, Guilliman just sorta pitied Lorgar for being so weak. Just based on his personality type, he probably didn't have any close friends, but at the same time he probably didn't have any real enemies. Several primarchs so far have commented that Guilliman could have/should have been Warmaster. But his success definitely bred some jealousy. You can see it from Lion (whose paranoid delusions become grander as we go along), and eventually it surfaces with Horus as he's being turned to Chaos. Lorgar was definitely jealous of Guilliman, but Lorgar had an entire magazine stand full of issues.

On the topic of which primarch was the most successful, it's sort of hard to tell. An apparent lack of coordination between BL authors and between the BL and old fluff means that no less than four primarchs have been credited with achieving the most victories in the Great Crusade, lol. Horus, Russ, Lion and Guilliman that I can recall off the top of my head. Now, it's entirely possible that it's intentional, and that we're supposed to see how the various Legions are convinced they are so great and hold these misconceptions as truths. However, every time I try to suggest that there's a layer of complexity and subtlety to the greater story, I get shot down, heh.

Im totally with you on this, Pimp daddy himself was an awsome primarch, i like how his legacy is just as broken as the Emps, he wrote the codex astartes to aid commanders in the field, not as a book to be followed to the letter baring all else and his empire was broken down into smaller factions too

wildboar wrote:Horus was actually close to Sanguinius, he considered him his dearest, most beloved brother in one of the earlier HH novels, something like that anyways.

Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus were very close, both forging a great weapon for each other.

I wouldn't say Lion and Russ hated each other, I believe that whilst they didn't particularly like each other there was a grudging mutual respect between them.

Russ and Magnus is another story....

Magnus was also particularly close with Horus

Sounds like a particularly grimdark Yaoi to me.

iproxtaco wrote:Horus was friends with everyone, although closer to some more than others, like Sanguinus, Dorn, Magnus, and Fulgrim.

There was always a pervading brotherly camaraderie, I think the only few who didn't feal that were Curze, because he has always been alone, and Mortarion, because he was just so grim.

With a name like Mortarion can you be anything but grim?

I don't think that Curze was without friends. He did confinde in Fulgrim. But, at that stage of Fulgrim being possessed. It was natural for him to feel betrayed. Also, when you look at his legions following the hersey. They for the most part are the most intact traitor legion. Their full battle strength is never fully known by the imperium.

I've read from first heretic that before the heresy began, Magnus and Lorgar were very close

Mortarion was only ever close to two other Primarchs Horus and Night Hunter ( Konrad Curze).

Russ was actually a decently close friend to Magnus until the Burning of Prospero was initiated and he saw him as a Heretic.

Angron was close to no one but Horus.

Roboute Guilliman was Close to like, Dorn,Fulgrim,Horus, Emperor, Manus, and basically most of the others except Angron, Lion.

Russ and Lion are just Rivals but they know that they are Allies andd will probably come to their senses in combat

Horus was The Emperor's favorite until Corruption.

Ferrus Mannus was close to Fulgrim

And I think thats about it.



-FrostTooth

Come to think of it Logar was close to Magnus, he even was atleast respected by Russ.