Does anyone use any Aspect Warriors other than FD & DA?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**mars2024**

It seems that half of the Eldar list is never used/talked about. No one seems to use Scorpions, Banshees, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, or Reapers. Shining Spears and Vipers hardly get used either. Footdar lists seem rare so that means Avatars, Wraithguard/lords, Harlies, Pathfinders, and Guardians are out. (Not to mention Yriel or the Phoenix Lords) Is it an old codex issue? Are there lists that use these troops? Do the other armies have such a huge part of their available troops ignored?

**Powerguy**

Partially its an old codex issue, but its also the fact that the internal codex balance was pretty terrible to begin with. Dragons are basically the only reliable choice of heavy anti tank firepower in the book (with Lances being massively overpriced) and 5th making meltaguns better made them an incredibly good unit for their cost. In general Eldar scoring units are terrible, mostly because they predate 5th, which made troops much more important and because of the simultaneous shift in GW policy towards troops (i.e they made them worth taking). Avengers get used as the default troop unit now because they are the cheapest, you use them to make a vehicle scoring basically.

The current Eldar codex often referred to as a copy paste codex, its basically identical to the 3rd edition Eldar codex (a few points cost changes, a few weapon stat changes and Harlies added in) and it really shows. I'm sure that there are lists which use those other units, but if you are talking about a competitive list/environment then they are sub-optimal choices. Scorpions and Banshees both fall over because they are sub par assault units which have no reliable delivery system, Hawks are just terrible with no useful role in any army, Spiders would be very solid if they didn't have AP- but don't really fit into a mech list (they are used a bit in Foot lists), Reapers suffer because they are static fire support infantry and can't hurt vehicles, Spears are massively overpriced and don't hit anywhere near hard enough. Vypers do get used a bit in mech lists, but they are mostly to fill out points since Serpents with guys in them are generally more important and you can get more firepower from your Heavy slots.

If you actually look almost every army has units which don't get used competitively because they aren't up to standard or are just outclassed by other units in the same slot. The older books tend to have more units which fall into this category, but even more recent books have some dud units (Blood Claws for SW, Court of the Archon for DE, Deathstrike for IG etc). Apart from Eldar I would say Orks, Tau, Daemons and probably Nids are the armies which don't use big chunks of their available units.

**Arschbombe**

I use Warp Spiders in my foot lists. They provide more S6 shooting and the speed that the rest of my army lacks. They're great fun and quite effective, if a bit on the expensive side.

**Jancoran**

mars2024 wrote:It seems that half of the Eldar list is never used/talked about. No one seems to use Scorpions, Banshees, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, or Reapers. Shining Spears and Vipers hardly get used either. Footdar lists seem rare so that means Avatars, Wraithguard/lords, Harlies, Pathfinders, and Guardians are out. (Not to mention Yriel or the Phoenix Lords) Is it an old codex issue? Are there lists that use these troops? Do the other armies have such a huge part of their available troops ignored?

I use Warp Spiders, Scorpions, and Dark Reapers in my Eldar list. I have Guardians in it as well.

**Eidolon**

You used to see the other aspects a bit more in 4th edition, but the current book is so gimped in 5th you are basically shooting yourself in the knee by investing points in most aspects.

**Jancoran**

Banshees aren't very good in a lot of situations though you wish you had them at a few select times. But very few. If I were to use that unit it would be held back for close defense, after the enemy has weathered a storm of other fire and wants to assault me. then up come the Banshees at that point. Not as the spear head of the attack as they are often used.

Fire Dragons are popular, and if anyone took them in larger units, they'd be good, but thats not a popular thing to do. So... You'd have to weigh that. But Fire Dragons are an exchange unit at 5 strong, and I dislike exchange units. So, go with full units OR consider another option for anti-tank.

Swooping Hawks are good at antitank and are just SO expensive unfortunately. 21 points is just tough to really understand. Still, they will kill parking lots.

**Skinnereal**

In small games (600 point Combat Squad), Scorpions were great. They get a good save and lots of attacks.
I've used Warp Spiders in mid-sized (1000-1500) point games, and they are nice, but not great. AP- sucks.
Banshees get wiped out tooo quickly.
Reapers are nice, if there is not much cover to hide in. Get them in cover on your side, and pin anyone else down in theirs.

I use Dire Avengers every game though. 22 shots with a 2-gun Exarch, and 33 with Bladestorm, is too good to pass up.

I expect Swooping Hawks will get more use when the fliers rules come out in 6th edition. Interception will be great for taking down enemy fliers.

**Kain**

Shadow spectres, though a forgeworld only option, are particularly nasty choices. Their phoenix lord in particular is amazingly good and the bane of anything on foot.

**Hazardous Harry**

I use Howling Banshees and they performed fantastically in the last match I played. There are very few things in the Eldar list that can go toe-to-toe with a GK termie squad that costs twice as much as they do and still somehow come out on top. I'd put it down to luck but frankly there was awful rolling on both sides.

The thing is that I run my Banshees in a Corsair list from IA 11, meaning I can fit them in a cheap open topped venom . The open topped aspect really does make all the difference in this case. Harlequins are even better in this respect.

**Testify**

Banshees are vital if you're up against meleé orientated MEQ, and Warp Spiders are okay against 6+ infantry ('nids and orks).
Swooping Hawks...there's a reason no one uses them. 21 points for guarsman with a jet pack

**SaganGree**

Kain wrote:Shadow spectres, though a forgeworld only option, are particularly nasty choices. Their phoenix lord in particular is amazingly good and the bane of anything on foot.

I have to wonder about your thought process on this... how again are they good?

They are a mid ranged unit that can combine to a SINGLE str10 shot at 250+ pnts... that goes down in effectiveness every time you loose 2 guys... now I admit that they can shoot and scoot... but breath on these guys wrong, like with any eldar on foot, and they drop like stones.

(Note: I know they can have a lot of str 7 AP2 shots... but only at 18". Personally I don't like spending that much on a unit that is disposable)

**Praxiss**

Aren't banshees evil in CC? it's been a while but i seem to remember I10 power weapons attacks and lots of dice.

**Sephyr**

My eldar-playing friend uses only fire dragons and skips Dire Avengers in favor of guardians forming Conga lines toward the Avatar.

He wanted to include Scorpions for some reason. I suggested Banshees instead, to my regret. They usually wipe out even my plagues marines in 2 rounds of CC and suffer negligible losses in return. Being fleet, they can hide behind the Wave Serpent in the turn they disembark and still make it into assault next turn.

Despite the amazing results, he still hates them and always whines about wanting Striking Scorpions. I shoulder encourage him just to see his face when their hundred attacks get filtered through T5, an armor save and FNP.

**Testify**

Praxiss wrote:Aren't banshees evil in CC? it's been a while but i seem to remember I10 power weapons attacks and lots of dice.

Yep they'll chop through MEQ like it's no one's business. Always I10 and PWs.

**Praxiss**

Testify wrote:
Praxiss wrote:Aren't banshees evil in CC? it's been a while but i seem to remember I10 power weapons attacks and lots of dice.

Yep they'll chop through MEQ like it's no one's business. Always I10 and PWs.

So why dont more people take them? Are they really expensive or something? i suppose they are like Khorne Berzerkers - great on the charge but if they get caught in the open....fail.

**DX Nin**

If you can get into cc before being shredded...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ooooooh ninjad.

**Kain**

SaganGree wrote:
Kain wrote:Shadow spectres, though a forgeworld only option, are particularly nasty choices. Their phoenix lord in particular is amazingly good and the bane of anything on foot.

I have to wonder about your thought process on this... how again are they good?

They are a mid ranged unit that can combine to a SINGLE str10 shot at 250+ pnts... that goes down in effectiveness every time you loose 2 guys... now I admit that they can shoot and scoot... but breath on these guys wrong, like with any eldar on foot, and they drop like stones.

(Note: I know they can have a lot of str 7 AP2 shots... but only at 18". Personally I don't like spending that much on a unit that is disposable)

They've ripped more of my monstrous creatures to shreds than I can count. And they're just evil against battlesuits and deathwings. Generally the Eldar player who uses them at my FLGS uses them as monstrous creature and termi killers, and just one squad of them has a Monstrous Creature and terminator kill count as long as my arm.

**DX Nin**

I used to love banshees. But then I played someone who wasn't Nids. If you're trying to get into cc with someone who has any kind of range, they're usually going to get at least one turn of shooting at you with two and sometimes three or more units. Banshees can only assault one unit at a time unless you can pull off shenanigans. So by the time you get there you're lucky if you still have half the unit you started with. So at best you're looking at what? 15 s3 power weapon attacks... 7 hits and maybe 3 wounds... 5 if you have a farseer. And anything with an invul gets to save. Plus now the enemy (who consists of probably 2x as many models.. -1 or 2 from your attack) gets to hit back. And you're saving half the time if you're even allowed a save. But with all the goodies the other armies get almost for free (poison, rend, +1s, rerolls etc) its almost funny how easy their thin candy shell gets cracked..

For specters, someone forgot to mention you can field Wasps or even Hornets (if we're assuming FW is cool) for a similar if not cheaper price and get twice the firepower, range, and survivability. Which renders them instantly obsolete in the same g-d book that invented them.

I really hope 6th fixes Eldar. Even with the reported rumors though, they won't be good enough for all the reasons already proposed in this thread (80% of the army is junk). IMO they have a long way to go...

**Arschbombe**

Praxiss wrote:
So why dont more people take them? Are they really expensive or something? i suppose they are like Khorne Berzerkers - great on the charge but if they get caught in the open....fail.

Because getting them into combat in enough numbers to do their thing is relatively difficult. If you run them on foot as I have, then they are relegated to a counter assault role. They have to hide in cover and wait for the enemy to get close enough to pounce. Even then they really need Doom to work well. A full squad of Banshees, with executioner exarch will kill, on average, 6 MEQs on the charge. Against T5 targets that drops to 3.5 wounds. They don't weather return blows very well with T3/4+.

In the mech world the trouble is getting their serpent close enough to a juicy target so they can jump out and assault the following turn since they can't assault after their vehicle moves. Even pivoting the vehicle prevents them from assaulting. Your opponent will then have a turn to move his target away.

**erikwfg**

I'm an old seer that sold his eldar, but it was over 250 models on foot. Yet it only had 15 jetbikes, 1 falcon, 1 fire prism, 1 tempest (armorcast), and 2-3 of each walker/vyper. So I would call that a footdar army. The wave serpeant didn't exist for the longest time, and when they did I still didn't buy one because I thought they'd suck.

I honestly think people just can't play eldar right. Eldar are one of the hardest armies to play. They rely on combined arms, which the game doesn't make easy. Making an army was a gamble too, because you sometimes lose in the army creation phase. If people field 'realistic' fluff based armies then I think eldar can compete with them. Mech armies were hard for me to beat.

In 2nd edition eldar would win the majority of tournaments. I think this was due to their psychic being far superior. I think about what changed in the codex, and what will change in the future, and don't see the basics ever changing. So what makes eldar so bad now? Since 2nd edition the only thing the codex gained was some bleh exarch wargear and the autarch (who should've been there in the beginning).

What have we lost? Total domination by psychic powers, exarchs as independent and potentially overpowered characters, dire avengers lost range, guardians lost even more range. The avatar doesn't die to a single lascannon anymore, but he can also die to any unit in the game. Dark reapers can no longer kill anything, and they suck at anti meq because of cover saves. The ap rules made saving vs the army alot easier than previously. The fleet rules no longer make eldar run any further than other armies, so no maneuverability. Also, 6 high point aspect warriors for $41.25, no thanks. Is there more? I don't want to continue.

Unless you play competitive, you play your army because it's your army. You should field want you want to field, even if you lose every game. Some day the power level may reverse, and then you will benefit for all your loyalty. Much like how I played the Ordo Malleus since before they had a codex, so it is my earned right to

everyone with GK now. Or you could try to adapt, there is always a way to win. Every unit in the codex is good for something. Just be lucky you guys usually get to know what army you're facing before you make your army, I never got that chance.

**Arschbombe**

erikwfg wrote:Unless you play competitive, you play your army because it's your army. You should field want you want to field, even if you lose every game.

I think that's fine as a principle, but basic human psychology works against it. If you get continually beat down, then what's your motivation for playing? I enjoy close, dramatic games, not blow outs whether I'm the winner or loser. Losing every game would point to having an exceptionally weak army and few if any of the losses would be closely fought and enjoyable.

Some day the power level may reverse, and then you will benefit for all your loyalty.

Ah, having gone through that with my BA I am not looking forward to Eldar becoming the codex of the moment. I don't need to see the forums filled with the inane questions of the bandwagoners. I don't want to have my opponents rolling their eyes because I'm playing the most broken codex.

Or you could try to adapt

This is the route I've taken with my Eldar. I didn't plan to play Footdar. I fell into playing footdar because I wanted to use Wraithlords. I didn't want to suffer wraithsight, so I looked for a spiritseer. The easiest way to get a spiritseer was with the guardians. Guardians led me to the avatar and at that point I was locked into a foot list. It's been a fun ride. Some units I started with have dropped out of my lists. Others have taken their place. I win as often as I lose. My opponents are generally pleased to be playing against something other than GK, IG, or SW. I am content.

Just be lucky you guys usually get to know what army you're facing before you make your army, I never got that chance.

Sorry, this comment makes no sense to me. Care to elaborate?

**erikwfg**

Arschbombe wrote: If you get continually beat down, then what's your motivation for playing? I enjoy close, dramatic games, not blow outs whether I'm the winner or loser. Losing every game would point to having an exceptionally weak army and few if any of the losses would be closely fought and enjoyable.

I have a friend who enjoys playing the underdog and losing to huge hordes. Not normal I know. Me personally, having played every army at some point, a side I like always wins, it just matters if the game was boring or not.

Just be lucky you guys usually get to know what army you're facing before you make your army, I never got that chance.

This means I have to make alot of my armies capable of taking on anything, I don't know what army my opponent will play or what the mission will be. Unless it's a special scenario we plan ahead of time, unlikely.

Eldar have very specialized units, I'd think they'd do good if you knew what you were facing. I never got that chance so I don't know.

**rubicant99**

I tried out the 10 Wraithguard, conceal warlock block with Eldrad this week and wasn't disappointed. They laughed at pretty much everything that was fired at them thanks to T6 and fortune; even 10 plasma cannon hits in cover did nothing. Fried terms with shooting and beat down a DP in assault with minimal losses. Will be taking again in future! Yeah I won't be looking to tango with hammernators anytime soon tho : )
I also like outflanking scorpions; had great success vs IG troops & tanks, and the fist can make the difference vs meq like long fangs etc. In fact my mechdar list is in danger of becoming a footdar list, add in harlies, warp spiders, avatar....

**Arschbombe**

erikwfg wrote:
This means I have to make alot of my armies capable of taking on anything, I don't know what army my opponent will play or what the mission will be. Unless it's a special scenario we plan ahead of time, unlikely.

Eldar have very specialized units, I'd think they'd do good if you knew what you were facing. I never got that chance so I don't know.

Oh. I thought that was the normal way of things. I always try to build list to take on anything, but I have a marked tendency to build towards taking out marines in boxes. Of course that's usually rewarded with facing things like nob bikers or foot IG.

I've never had the opportunity to tailor my list to an opponent's.

**KingDeath**

Praxiss wrote:
Testify wrote:
Praxiss wrote:Aren't banshees evil in CC? it's been a while but i seem to remember I10 power weapons attacks and lots of dice.

Yep they'll chop through MEQ like it's no one's business. Always I10 and PWs.

So why dont more people take them? Are they really expensive or something? i suppose they are like Khorne Berzerkers - great on the charge but if they get caught in the open....fail.

Banshees are rather expensive WS4 (meh) S3 (lolbad) units which have no assault transport and only a 4+ save. That's why they suck. Against dedicated cc units they die horribly, despite the good I ( low str and only mediocre WS are to blame, they simply cannot reliably take out enough opponents to survive the counterstrike ) and against everything else they are more or less wasted.

**Jancoran**

Praxiss wrote:Aren't banshees evil in CC? it's been a while but i seem to remember I10 power weapons attacks and lots of dice.

Banshees are closers...not assault troops in my opinion. At STR 3, they just don't pump enough wounds out if they get charged. They go first normally, but if they get whittled at ALL and then get charged, their number of attacks, power though they be, ends in a lacklustre kill total. As they aren't fearless, this is a problem.

Also on the charge, while decent, getting to that point is a little difficult without resistence. So they rarely get where they are going at full str and even when they DO do their job and kill a target, they then GET killed, qualifying them in my vernacular as an exchange unit: a lot of effort and time spent for ultimate no more than a 1:1 exchange of KP's.

They are great finishers though. And protecting your line against incursion is their strongest suit. In that role they dont get shot up as often (the enemy spends more time killing your ranged attacks a lot of the time) and they have someplace to get cover and hide inbetween assaults, instead of getting caught in a close-cross fire with half the enemies army able to pound them. They might pull off a couple successful charges in this role and suddenly they look like superstars.

So it's all in how you used them.

**Dash2021**

There are a lot of things going on in the CW:E codex that make the Fragon/DA the overwhelming majority of foot units taken. Points cost vs. effectiveness is probably the biggest factor, but this is influenced by the fact that the codex budgeted according to 4ed. standards instead of 5th. (soon to be 6th.). For example, when the codex first came out 60 points for a 5 man DA squad was amazing, though through the lens of time given what the squad does that cost seems a bit dear.

So since you didn't ask, here's a slot by slot breakdown (excluding HQ options). Don't have my codex handy, so all the numerical values are from memory and may be slightly off. INC WALL OF TEXT

Elites

Spoiler:

Troops

Spoiler:

Fast Attack

Spoiler:

Vypers- work in mech lists, but are a bit to fragile to base an army around. More of a unit to fill out points with. Double shuricanon zooming around for side/back armor is great in theory, till you realize that they'll have to get close enough to risk being shot by infantry. AV 10, open topped means that there's very little that can't hurt them. You could go with an EML, but if your opponent has any sense of target priority they'll get picked off quickly.

Shining Spears- Cost to much. Nothing else to say about it really. Cost way to much to do way to little. Can be fun to create a deathstar with an autarch and farseer (for fortune/Doom), but you're probably better off going with a seer council for that.

Swooping Hawks- Not even sure what they were supposed to do. 2 S3 shots at 24 inches is O.K. against infantry I suppose. Haywire would be great if they aren't DS'ng every turn, and you could get close enough to use it without dying. The bombs are decent at killing infantry, but you don't see much infantry in 5th. So all in all you're paying 21 points for an invulnerable unit to drop templates on infantry, or an incredibly vulnerable unit to shoot infantry/charge tanks. Template doesn't do enough to justify taking them, and there isn't much you can shoot them at that would justify their inevitable death in the subsequent turn. Ultimately they do more or less the same job as Warp Spiders, but don't do it nearly as well.

As a side note, if they don't retool either Swooping Hawks or Warp Spiders in the 6th ed. codex, one of the two will continue to be useless. I have yet to figure out why we have two shooting jump pack units, and not one CC jump pack unit. Scorpions and Banshees are in a similar boat, but at least have distinct jobs in theory. Hawks/Spiders have almost always done the same thing.... and Spiders have always done it better. See below, /end rant.

Warp Spiders- I hold a soft spot for these guys. S6 is the one thing that Eldar do well, and these guys give you more of it in a slot that isn't terribly competitive. Yes, it's AP-, meaning you're auto glancing. But 10 (min sized squad) S6 BS4 shots will almost certainly cause a result, giving you fire suppression. J-S-J saves them from exposure to fire as well. Or, my favorite is to run a squad of 10 with exarch w/disengage. Run into the backfield and fire/charge into heavy weapons teams/Long fangs/Devs. Even if you don't wipe them out with fire, and if they do next to nothing in combat, due to being able to fire and charge every turn they're almost guaranteed to win the battle of attrition. Still pricy at 22 points a piece however, and while fun, the unit isn't likely to be a game winner like a squad of JB's going for a contest late in the game.

Heavy

Spoiler:

**wuestenfux**

Well, in my competitive mech Eldar army, there is no room for Aspect Warriors other than FD and DA. Banshees and Scorpions are cc aspects. But there are better cc units out there. Scorpions can outflank, but Warwalkers can get also the job done, only better. The remaining Aspects are not really competitive.

**bravelybravesirrobin**

If we're talking aspects then DA obviously have a use (we're cheap and scoring) as do FD (we're cheap and suicide tanks) and what's more job roles that are nigh on essential in any eldar army since they otherwise lack decent scoring units and decent heavy tank busting options

Of the remaining aspects Swooping Hawks and Shining Spears are over costed and just don't work, especially swooping hawks who are terrible at killing infantry, terrible at killing tanks, fragile and just generally pointless.

Dark Reapers are fine but a bit superfluous and over shadowed by similar choices in the same slot. There is plenty of anti-MEQ options in shooting and assult in elites, heavy, fast, even troops. Most of those options are cheaper and more mobile than dark reapers so most people don't look at them twice.

That leaves Spiders, Scorps and Banshees and all three are great choices but they have the same problem, you don't need them. If you're playing mech you want mobility, guns, scoring units and tank busting, you don't need assault units and you don't need a tricksy high str but ap - gun. They're nice to have but not essential.

As for Scorps, Banshees and Harlies I personally think all three are great but I've always rated Banshees as the worst choice.

Banshees will absolutely murder MEQ units and if you can match them up with an expesnive MEQ unit (say sterngaurd or assault marines) they should win cc and really hurt your opponent but their low strength, low attacks and low armour save/toughness mean they struggle to put the hits out aaginst infantry and have no staying power. They also have no inbuilt mechanism for getting to the enemy relying on wave serpents which are not ideal assault platforms.

In contrast Scorps and Harlies are much more flexible. Both are better versus light infantry, especially scorps with their extra attacks. Against MEQ the banshees are better but both units are actually very respectable against MEQ. The extra attacks and strength mean that whilst MEQ get an armour save versus scorps they have more saves to make, plus the claw helps close that gap a little too. And harlies have rending which with a bit of luck can also tear through armour.

Both units are tougher either ebcause of 3+ armour or invulnerable saves.

Both have some utiltiy against tanks thanks to the claw or rending.

Both have a method of getting to the enemy other than a falcon/wave sepent. In the case of Harlies it's the veil for scorps it's infiltrate/outflank

If you play only MEQ then Banshees are your guys but I just find Scorps and Harlies to be more multi-dimensional units that do Banshee's job nearly as well but can do a lot more jobs also.

**Dark Haemonculus**

Of all the aspects, s. hawks are the worst (unless you're a douche abusing skyleap). Followed by d. reapers. Then scorps and harlies i include in my friendly lists and banshees are my second favourite aspect with doom beneath fire dragons.