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This is a specific case question regarding Zahndrekh and Stealth which I'd asked in the thread about Camo Cloaks which is unfortunately locked.

Zahndrekh is able to remove Stealth from a unit. If this unit has an independent character attached, is Stealth removed from the IC as well?
Case 1: Unit and IC has Stealth. IC leaves unit. Does the IC now enjoy Stealth or was it removed from both parties?
Case 2: Unit does not, but IC does. IC leaves the unit. Does the IC now enjoy Stealth?
Case 3: Unit does not, but IC does. IC removes himself from unit and a different IC with Stealth is attached to unit. Does unit now benefit from Stealth again?
Case 4: Unit has Stealth, but IC does not. IC moves to attach to a different unit with Stealth. Does the IC not benefit from Stealth?
Related: Can Zahndrekh remove Master Stealth from Eldar Pathfinders?

These are serious questions since our Necron player often uses Zahndrekh and I find him a bit... odd. Zahndrekh, not the player.

My only input on this, is per the GW Necron FAQ, in regards to Deathmarks 'marking' an IC, when he's attached to a unit, the unit is also marked. If he leaves, they are no longer marked but he remains marked. I would believe Zandrekh's power alterations work the same way.

As far i read the rule ,it the unit that loses the special rule so if the IC is part of that unit he loses it ,if he leaves it he is no longer part of that unit so regains the special rule

Mahtamori wrote:Zahndrekh is able to remove Stealth from a unit. If this unit has an independent character attached, is Stealth removed from the IC as well?

Based on the FAQ regarding Deathmarks, only while the IC is part of the unit.

Case 1: Unit and IC has Stealth. IC leaves unit. Does the IC now enjoy Stealth or was it removed from both parties?

See above.

Case 2: Unit does not, but IC does. IC leaves the unit. Does the IC now enjoy Stealth?

In this case, the IC is the specific target (as the unit does not have Stealth), hence, the IC would not get Stealth back (again based on Deathmark precedent).

Case 3: Unit does not, but IC does. IC removes himself from unit and a different IC with Stealth is attached to unit. Does unit now benefit from Stealth again?

Only while the second IC is attached.

Case 4: Unit has Stealth, but IC does not. IC moves to attach to a different unit with Stealth. Does the IC not benefit from Stealth?

While attached, to the other Stealth unit, the IC would benefit from Stealth.

Related: Can Zahndrekh remove Master Stealth from Eldar Pathfinders?

Due to the wording of 'Pathfinder' "...instead of the usual +X conferred by Stealth", if they lose Stealth, they lose the improvement to it as well, so they would get no bonus to being in cover.

Not sure what all the moving questions have to do with anything. Counter Tactics lasts for a game turn, but from the start of the Necron turn. So during the Necron shooting phase, the IC and the unit he is part of will have Stealth removed. As the unit is targeted, if the IC leaves the unit, he will regain Stealth, and confer it's benefits to any unit he joins (which only matters if the Eldar player scatters a blast onto that unit). The targeted unit, if it has the Stealth USR, regains that power at the start of the next Necron turn.

By Cases. 1,2: Yes. 3: No. 4: It does, as it never had Stealth. Related: Yes.

I think 3 is technically impossible, though, as there is only one Eldar IC with Stealth I can think of. Karandras could join a unit of Rangers that had Stealth taken, but I think that he would lose Stealth while part of the unit (the unit loses the USR and cannot gain it; by joining the unit he is subject to this rule, and would lose the USR, in my opinion, though this is arguable since only one model in the unit has Stealth and isn't technically "gaining" the USR).

I disagree with Happyjew on #2 above because the IC isn't specifically targeted, the unit is, and the IC loses Stealth only because he is part of the unit and every model therein loses the Stealth USR while part of the unit. There is no permission given to target the ability on the IC within the unit.

It comes down to "Is the IC part of the unit for all purposes (ie does he lose his status as a unit) or is he co-existing temporarily, but still his own unit?"

I've seen yes and no answers to this, depending on the thread.
If he loses his own status as a unit, then he's absolutely affected by the loss of Stealth.
If he doesn't, he isn't affected, but there are other issues with that.

FWIW this answer would also apply to Doom/Guide, and a few other rules.

Page 49 (and 48 when joining) positively states he is only ever trreated as a separate unit when resolving attacks, and is a normal member of the unit otherwise

Which means that references to a combined unit are confusing, because he's lost his individuality, and that Doom/Guide follow the IC.

Along with other abilities I'm simply too lazy to try and include in one post (at least I'm honest).

jwolf wrote:I think 3 is technically impossible, though, as there is only one Eldar IC with Stealth I can think of. Karandras could join a unit of Rangers that had Stealth taken, but I think that he would lose Stealth while part of the unit (the unit loses the USR and cannot gain it; by joining the unit he is subject to this rule, and would lose the USR, in my opinion, though this is arguable since only one model in the unit has Stealth and isn't technically "gaining" the USR).

I have nothing to add to the thread at this point, just reading, but I felt I should state that this is not specifically related to Eldar. See the other thread with IG models. Camo Cloaks can be purchased both by certain ICs and units.

Personally i would think of it this way as i find it simpler to do so since it does not state how to deal with the situations the OP stated.

As per page 3 BRB Units - 'A unit will usually consist of serveral MODELS that fight as a group'.

I have chosen a unit which can be comprised of an IC and non IC models, that is the unit i have chosen at the start of my turn as required and those models that make up that unit are the ones affected by the loss of the USR, even if my opponent were to split the IC away from the non-IC unit, join the IC to another non-IC unit or have a new IC join the original non-IC unit, it was those specific models that made up the original unit that i had targeted during my turn and which are unable to use the USR i have chosen no matter what my opponent does in his turn, as per this any other unit which is joined too or by one of the original models would lose the USR aswell until my next turn.

Your target is a unit. If the IC leaves the unit he becomes a new unit all by himself, and is no longer the target of the power.

But he was in the unit i targeted in my turn, should the IC leave that creates 2 units, how do you tell which one has the USR removed?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Your target is a unit. If the IC leaves the unit he becomes a new unit all by himself, and is no longer the target of the power.

Annihilation gives a kill point for each unit destroyed.
If an IC is not his own unit when joined to another unit, he does not grant a separate kill point.

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Your target is a unit. If the IC leaves the unit he becomes a new unit all by himself, and is no longer the target of the power.

Annihilation gives a kill point for each unit destroyed.
If an IC is not his own unit when joined to another unit, he does not grant a separate kill point.

Prove this statement, using the rules.

jwolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Your target is a unit. If the IC leaves the unit he becomes a new unit all by himself, and is no longer the target of the power.

Annihilation gives a kill point for each unit destroyed.
If an IC is not his own unit when joined to another unit, he does not grant a separate kill point.

Prove this statement, using the rules.

Is the IC his own unit? (answer - according to nos, no)
The rules for Annihilation on page 91 say to award 1 'kill point' for every unit that was completely destroyed.
If an IC is not his own unit, his unit must be the one he's attached to.
If that unit (including the IC) is completely destroyed, there's only one unit destroyed.
The IC isn't around during the movement phase (unit was destroyed, remember?) so cannot leave the unit.
Heck, you could kil the IC first just to deny the kil point - he's a normal member of the unit.

Userarm wrote:But he was in the unit i targeted in my turn, should the IC leave that creates 2 units, how do you tell which one has the USR removed?

The unit you targetted.

Rigeld - yet you get 2 points for an IC and retinue, meaning that isnt quite true. Additionally you arent arguing a rule her e- the rules on p48 and 49 are quite clear on this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Userarm wrote:But he was in the unit i targeted in my turn, should the IC leave that creates 2 units, how do you tell which one has the USR removed?

The unit you targetted.

Rigeld - yet you get 2 points for an IC and retinue, meaning that isnt quite true. Additionally you arent arguing a rule her e- the rules on p48 and 49 are quite clear on this.

I'm not arguing a rule. I'm pointing out issues with your interpretation. I disagree that an IC can lose his "unitness". The IC rules clearly state that they're a combined unit - which wouldn't be true if the IC wasn't a unit anymore.

A combined unit requires there being a single unit, otherwise it isnt ombined. The IC rules also clearly tell you that the IC is a separate unit "counted as" during resollving attacks (a line irrelevant under your interpretation) and is a normal member before and after this point. He cannot be a normal member of a unit and a separate unit, otherwise he isnt a normal member.

So he's not worth a separate kill point then? Unless he's flying solo or part of a retinue of course.

Looks like it. Again, the actual rules are clear on this - there is a single unit when an IC joins, thats it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Looks like it. Again, the actual rules are clear on this - there is a single unit when an IC joins, thats it.

As long as you're consistent, I can't fault you. I can disagree, but not fault. :-)

Yes, a combined unit is one unit on the battlefield. It is made up of not models but units. Those units are made up of models.

A combined unit is a single unit composed of formerly individual units. By its nature it cannot still be composed of separate units.

The rules on p48 and p49 clearly state an attached IC is no longer a separate unit.

So you would have to nominate the IC unit specifically if in a combined unit as having the USR removed so that way even if he leaves the combined unit he would be affected by the USR loss.

Userarm wrote:So you would have to nominate the IC unit specifically if in a combined unit as having the USR removed so that way even if he leaves the combined unit he would be affected by the USR loss.

Except you can't. There is no IC unit to nominate. According to nos' interpretation.

I still disagree with him. Of course, this might all change in a few weeks anyway.

True. By the end of the month / early July this will hopefully be clearer.

Can you explain why you disagree? Page 48 and 49 seem very, very clear on this

nosferatu1001 wrote:True. By the end of the month / early July this will hopefully be clearer.

Can you explain why you disagree? Page 48 and 49 seem very, very clear on this

I disagree that a combined unit cannot be made up of 2 (or more) units.
I disagree because of the kill point issue - because you don't count KPs until the end of the fight, you'd have to track wether or not they were solo when they died, etc.
I disagree because you're saying that literally everyone I know has been playing KP wrong for years :-)

That last one is facetious -you could be correct with the RAW despite how it's always been played.

jwolf wrote:I disagree with Happyjew on #2 above because the IC isn't specifically targeted, the unit is, and the IC loses Stealth only because he is part of the unit and every model therein loses the Stealth USR while part of the unit. There is no permission given to target the ability on the IC within the unit.

This is how I made my decision, regarding number 2:

Necron FAQ wrote:Q: Can a unit of Deathmarks choose an Independent
Character that has joined a unit as the target of Hunters
from Hyperspace? (p36)
A: Yes. Note that if the Independent Character
subsequently leaves the unit only the Independent
Character will continue to be Wounded on a 2+.

As I originally stated, my first 2 (3?) answers were all based on Deathmark precedent and were not actually supported by any specific rules.

Edit: Also, good job, not just stating someone is wrong, but WHY you think they are wrong (not being sarcastic).

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:True. By the end of the month / early July this will hopefully be clearer.

Can you explain why you disagree? Page 48 and 49 seem very, very clear on this

I disagree that a combined unit cannot be made up of 2 (or more) units.
I disagree because of the kill point issue - because you don't count KPs until the end of the fight, you'd have to track wether or not they were solo when they died, etc.
I disagree because you're saying that literally everyone I know has been playing KP wrong for years :-)

That last one is facetious -you could be correct with the RAW despite how it's always been played.

The only reason IC joined to units is worth 2 KP is because the FAQ tells us they are.

Q: If an Independent Character has joined a unit, and
they are all destroyed how many kill points are they
worth? (p91)
A: Two. The unit is worth one and the Independent
Character is also worth one.

And the Deathmark ruling goes against that FAQ. Sigh. Where's the consistency?

rigeld2 wrote:And the Deathmark ruling goes against that FAQ. Sigh. Where's the consistency?

Wait, the Deathmark ruling goes against which FAQ now?