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Magnus a son of Emperor and favourite candidate to guide humanity through the manmade webway, has just broken his oath never to employ sorcery again and ruined said webway (possibly forever.) Ultimately it is the Emperor’s job to administrate the arse kicking when his subjects defy his orders. Now imagine you were in his shoes (the Emperor's) and had to decide on what kind of action should be taken against Mangus and the TS. What would you have done to tackle this difficult situation?

If I was Russ, I would have not listened to Horus.

Russ is a bit dumb.

You can be assured Russ had a little 'help' in his decision from the Architect of Fate.

The Thousand Sons were fated to serve Tzeentch, the Planet of the Sorcerors was created aeons before the heresy in preparation for their coming.

Pilau Rice wrote:If I was Russ, I would have not listened to Horus.

Russ is a bit dumb.

Please i'm looking for a more in depth answar. Plus we are playing the Emperor here, not Russ.

Nitros14 wrote:You can be assured Russ had a little 'help' in his decision from the Architect of Fate.

The Thousand Sons were fated to serve Tzeentch, the Planet of the Sorcerors was created aeons before the heresy in preparation for their coming.

Unlikely, Russ was just looking for an excuse to beat up Magnus. Regardless of whether Russ listened to Horus or not the Thousand Sons would have gone over to Tzeentch.

Redcruisair wrote:

Please i'm looking for a more in depth answar. Plus we are playing the Emperor here, not Russ.

Ok then, send a Primarch that doesn't hate Magnus' guts.

How's that?

Here is how I would have done it (any constructive criticism will be appreciated.)

Step one. Ordering any space marine legion within close range of Prospero to disengage from what whatever they are doing and go to Prospero instead (the silent sisterhood and Custodes guard will be deployed along side the marines.)

Step two. Following terms will be given to Magnus and his sons. *TS and any other armed force stationed on Prospero has to lay down their arms and surrender themselves to the occupation force.* *Magnus and the leadership of the TS are to be taken into custody by the occupation force.*
If the TS decide not to adhere to the given terms, then the dispatched forces have clearance to purge the TS legion.

Step three. The dispatched legion will occupy the planet and oversee the “cleansing” of sorcery.
The following orders are: All text found on Prospero is to be burned and its libraries destroyed. The cults who practice sorcery are to be disbanded and its members executed (humans only.) A garrison consisting of troops from the imperial army will be stationed on Prospero to ensure no further practice of sorcery will happen on the planet again (the officer in command of the garrison will also act as a governor for the planet.)

Step four. The TS legion will be broken down into smaller divisions and put under the command of the other primarchs, who in turn will ensure, that the TS do not practice any sorcery.

Step five. Magnus will be transported to Terra.

Do guys think it would have been possible to do it the way I just described?

I think some of that was the original plan but there were a few... problems.
Firstly Horus messed with Russ' orders. I know Russ was looking for an opportunity to hurt Magnus so he is partially to blame but Horus was the Warmaster. He spoke with the authority of the Emperor so disobeying Horus would have been like disobeying Russ so you can't fault Russ entirely.

Secondly, Magnus didn't surrender. He was mourning... kind of. After breaking his Father's project he felt bad, he felt bad after being forced to use sorcery, he felt bad for the death he caused using sorcery. Magnus wasn't looking to save himself and his legion until it was too late to do so without help from the dark gods.

It's no one's fault directly, it's shared by 4 different people all of whom could have changed it to a more positive outcome if they had wanted to. (The Emperor, Magnus, Russ and Horus)

Personally, if I were the Emperor I would have sent the Custodes with the Sisters of Silence to Prospero bearing a message from me (The Emperor) telling Magnus and his legion to rendezvous with Russ and his forces and journey to Terra in order to explain himself. I would have also told Russ that no orders to the contrary should be accepted from anyone no matter who.

As it is what happened was possibly the most tragic thing in the 40k setting (Barring a few other events).

Sure. Russ was ordered to bring Magnus back to Terra, and the Emperor gave the orders. Warmaster or not, Horus did not have the right to countermand those orders.

Tadashi wrote:Sure. Russ was ordered to bring Magnus back to Terra, and the Emperor gave the orders. Warmaster or not, Horus did not have the right to countermand those orders.

He didn't countermand those orders at all, he just lied.

Horus, as Warmaster, is the voice of the Emperor and commander of all his armies in his stead, who's not to believe what he says at this point in time.

Even though Russ has been warned once of this by his own dudes and the message from Magnus.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Sure. Russ was ordered to bring Magnus back to Terra, and the Emperor gave the orders. Warmaster or not, Horus did not have the right to countermand those orders.

He didn't countermand those orders at all, he just lied.

Horus, as Warmaster, is the voice of the Emperor and commander of all his armies in his stead, who's not to believe what he says at this point in time.

Even though Russ has been warned once of this by his own dudes and the message from Magnus.

Exactly. The Emperor sent the orders to Horus, who was to relay them to Russ just like any other chain of command. Horus changed the orders to better serve his own purpose and gave them to Russ as "the Emperor's orders".

Orblivion wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Sure. Russ was ordered to bring Magnus back to Terra, and the Emperor gave the orders. Warmaster or not, Horus did not have the right to countermand those orders.

He didn't countermand those orders at all, he just lied.

Horus, as Warmaster, is the voice of the Emperor and commander of all his armies in his stead, who's not to believe what he says at this point in time.

Even though Russ has been warned once of this by his own dudes and the message from Magnus.

Exactly. The Emperor sent the orders to Horus, who was to relay them to Russ just like any other chain of command. Horus changed the orders to better serve his own purpose and gave them to Russ as "the Emperor's orders".

We don't even know if Horus received a message from the Emperor. He knew that Magnus was in trouble from when Fulgrim met with him, he's also got whisperers in the warp telling him stuff. If he has an idea of what is happening all he needed to do was to say that his orders are now as follows "by decree of the Chaos Gods ... I mean, Emperor"

Pilau Rice wrote:

Orblivion wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Sure. Russ was ordered to bring Magnus back to Terra, and the Emperor gave the orders. Warmaster or not, Horus did not have the right to countermand those orders.

He didn't countermand those orders at all, he just lied.

Horus, as Warmaster, is the voice of the Emperor and commander of all his armies in his stead, who's not to believe what he says at this point in time.

Even though Russ has been warned once of this by his own dudes and the message from Magnus.

Exactly. The Emperor sent the orders to Horus, who was to relay them to Russ just like any other chain of command. Horus changed the orders to better serve his own purpose and gave them to Russ as "the Emperor's orders".

We don't even know if Horus received a message from the Emperor. He knew that Magnus was in trouble from when Fulgrim met with him, he's also got whisperers in the warp telling him stuff. If he has an idea of what is happening all he needed to do was to say that his orders are now as follows "by decree of the Chaos Gods ... I mean, Emperor"

I think I remember there being a source that mentioned how relaying the order through Horus is what allowed him to lie to Russ. I'll see if I can find it when I get home later today.

Hind sight is 20/20

The problem with this exorsise is that we know what happened. But If I was the big E. I would have done the same thing.

He had no way of knowing Horus would change the orders. He sent Russ because the SW are his executioners. A legion designed to take down other legions. That is their job, why not use them as such.

Why send Russ? There is no evidence that Magnus would surrender in the first place. He has continuously proven that he is willing to ignore doctrine (by continuing to practice sorcery) so why is there any reason to believe that he would come peacefully. And if he does refuse, force will be needed. Thats also why the sisters and custodians were also sent. Just more back up if required.

As for Russ. Yeah he probably licked his chops at the idea of laying into Magnus, but there is zero reason for him to not believe that the orders Horus sent were not the words of the Emperor.

The Big E hoped for the best, but in truth planned for the worst. Its just that Horus made sure that it was the worst that happened.

In Prospero Burns, Russ does try to get Magnus to surrender without a fight, without destruction and without devastation. Just Magnus in custody heading back to Terra and the Thousand Sons disarmed for the interim.

Had he done that both Russ and Magnus would have been present on Terra during the Horus Hersey . . . things might have gone down highly differently.

Ultimately Magnus chose to fight, a choice which Russ wasn't going to back down from.

Send someone who wasn't Russ. How about wise Guilliman, or noble Sanguinius? I would suggest Mortarion, but I think that by this point he had fallen to Chaos thanks to Typhus and his scheming. The Ultramarines just wouldn't have gone on a big rape-kill-pillage trip, and are mostly logical. The Blood Angels are themselves highly psychic, so could have been more understanding of Magnus's plight.

But nope, he sent Russ and his legion of psyker hating, hypocritical and badly behaved frat boys.

Squigsquasher wrote:Send someone who wasn't Russ. How about wise Guilliman, or noble Sanguinius? I would suggest Mortarion, but I think that by this point he had fallen to Chaos thanks to Typhus and his scheming. The Ultramarines just wouldn't have gone on a big rape-kill-pillage trip, and are mostly logical. The Blood Angels are themselves highly psychic, so could have been more understanding of Magnus's plight.

But nope, he sent Russ and his legion of psyker hating, hypocritical and badly behaved frat boys.

Mortarion wan't fallen but he was on Horus' side by that point...

I'd send Lorgar.

See, here's why.

1. I don't know that Lorgar is a Traitor yet.
2. Lorgar's Legion is 10x the size of Magnus' Legion.
3. Magnus is buddies with Lorgar and is more likely to listen to him.
4. Lorgar is buddies with Magnus and is more likely to be diplomatic and peaceful.

Squigsquasher wrote:Send someone who wasn't Russ. How about wise Guilliman, or noble Sanguinius? I would suggest Mortarion, but I think that by this point he had fallen to Chaos thanks to Typhus and his scheming. The Ultramarines just wouldn't have gone on a big rape-kill-pillage trip, and are mostly logical. The Blood Angels are themselves highly psychic, so could have been more understanding of Magnus's plight.

But nope, he sent Russ and his legion of psyker hating, hypocritical and badly behaved frat boys.

Yeah, I'd have sent Sanguinius and the Blood Angels as well. Sanguinius had empathy and precognition, he'd have been a bit more understanding with Magnus than any other Primarch, except for Lorgar, Magnus favorite brother. Not to mention Sanguinius would have seen something wrong the moment Horus contacted him.

If I were the Emperor I would have sent Malcador with some Custodes in order to repremand Mangnus, but hear him out.

Malcador would obviously be used as a telepathic host much in the same way that he was when Lorgar was reprimanded.

I'd like a cannon explanation as to why the Emperor seemed disinterest in one of his most powerful sons warnings.

Redcruisair wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:If I was Russ, I would have not listened to Horus.

Russ is a bit dumb.

Please i'm looking for a more in depth answar. Plus we are playing the Emperor here, not Russ.

Send "Not Russ" you know, Lion, Dorn, Guilleman. Someone level headed.

Again, in Prospero Burns Russ offers Magnus a way to surrender peacefully without devastation and destruction.

What the Wolves did is precisely what they're designed for.

Prospero could have been handled differently had Magnus not defied the Emperors will in the first place. He believed he knew best, cost Humanity control of the Webway (or something like it) and a way for mankind to avoid falling prey to chaos where travel is concerned (perhaps more?).

I believe this is correct... I think.

purplefood wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Send someone who wasn't Russ. How about wise Guilliman, or noble Sanguinius? I would suggest Mortarion, but I think that by this point he had fallen to Chaos thanks to Typhus and his scheming. The Ultramarines just wouldn't have gone on a big rape-kill-pillage trip, and are mostly logical. The Blood Angels are themselves highly psychic, so could have been more understanding of Magnus's plight.

But nope, he sent Russ and his legion of psyker hating, hypocritical and badly behaved frat boys.

Mortarion wan't fallen but he was on Horus' side by that point...

And he liked witches as much as Russ did. He might have been a better option thinking about it though, but if Horus had messaged him instead the outcome would have been the same.

We don't know where Russ was do we, I mean in the series, the fluff from the IA, CCG and other bits say that he was at the palace and the Emperor gave the order direct to Russ?

Tadashi wrote:

Yeah, I'd have sent Sanguinius and the Blood Angels as well. Sanguinius had empathy and precognition, he'd have been a bit more understanding with Magnus than any other Primarch, except for Lorgar, Magnus favorite brother. Not to mention Sanguinius would have seen something wrong the moment Horus contacted him.

Really? He didn't see anything wrong when Horus sent him to the Signus cluster. The whole point here is that no one, apart from the Primarchs already in on it, is suspect of Horus.

Uhlan wrote:What the Wolves did is precisely what they're designed for.

Prospero could have been handled differently had Magnus not defied the Emperors will in the first place. He believed he knew best, cost Humanity control of the Webway (or something like it) and a way for mankind to avoid falling prey to chaos where travel is concerned (perhaps more?).

I believe this is correct... I think.

Pretty much, but everything Magnus did was guided to one eventual outcome. Tzeentch played him like Mario Kart.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Yeah, I'd have sent Sanguinius and the Blood Angels as well. Sanguinius had empathy and precognition, he'd have been a bit more understanding with Magnus than any other Primarch, except for Lorgar, Magnus favorite brother. Not to mention Sanguinius would have seen something wrong the moment Horus contacted him.

Really? He didn't see anything wrong when Horus sent him to the Signus cluster. The whole point here is that no one, apart from the Primarchs already in on it, is suspect of Horus.

You really think Sanguinius would be fine with Horus' countermanding the Emperor's orders? He may have been friends with Sanguinius, but he was absolutely loyal to the Emperor.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Yeah, I'd have sent Sanguinius and the Blood Angels as well. Sanguinius had empathy and precognition, he'd have been a bit more understanding with Magnus than any other Primarch, except for Lorgar, Magnus favorite brother. Not to mention Sanguinius would have seen something wrong the moment Horus contacted him.

Really? He didn't see anything wrong when Horus sent him to the Signus cluster. The whole point here is that no one, apart from the Primarchs already in on it, is suspect of Horus.

You really think Sanguinius would be fine with Horus' countermanding the Emperor's orders? He may have been friends with Sanguinius, but he was absolutely loyal to the Emperor.

Ergo Horus. That's my point, he has no reason at this point in time to not follow Horus orders who is acting on behalf of the Emperor as his Warmaster. If Russ, as dumb as he is, even had an inkling that Horus was a traitor he would not have followed his orders so fully. Valdor didn't help things though either apparently and was just as much to blame for the attempted extermination of the Thousand Sons as Horus was.

If anything Sanguinius is one of Horus brothers that would be easiest to convince, he might not have carried out the task to it;s full outcome due to being one of the more humane Primarchs, but he certainly would have followed Horus orders.

As others have said, Russ was both following orders (via Horus) and doing his job (executioner).

Sending Malcador or Custodes probably wouldn't have worked, as Astartes/Primarchs have continuously shown disdain for non-Astartes/Primarchs. Therefore Magnus would probably be unwilling to submit to someone such as the Custodes or Malcador.

Furthermore, it's logical to assume that had Horus not told him otherwise, Russ would have followed the Emperor's orders and done as he was originally told (*some evidence*). Indeed, despite Horus' orders, Russ tried to give Magnus a chance to surrender anyway.


I agree with the idea that it may have been more logical to send someone else (Sanguinius would probably be my first choice) without a grudge, however maybe the Wolves were closest? Furthermore, if things were to get messy then the Wolves are probably most qualified.

That would lead to some interesting alternatives though; what if the Wolves were not the ones sent to apprehend Magnus, but were instead able to defend Terra at the final battle?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pilau Rice wrote:Pretty much, but everything Magnus did was guided to one eventual outcome. Tzeentch played him like Mario Kart.

I hate Mario Kart.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Yeah, I'd have sent Sanguinius and the Blood Angels as well. Sanguinius had empathy and precognition, he'd have been a bit more understanding with Magnus than any other Primarch, except for Lorgar, Magnus favorite brother. Not to mention Sanguinius would have seen something wrong the moment Horus contacted him.

Really? He didn't see anything wrong when Horus sent him to the Signus cluster. The whole point here is that no one, apart from the Primarchs already in on it, is suspect of Horus.

You really think Sanguinius would be fine with Horus' countermanding the Emperor's orders? He may have been friends with Sanguinius, but he was absolutely loyal to the Emperor.

Ergo Horus. That's my point, he has no reason at this point in time to not follow Horus orders who is acting on behalf of the Emperor as his Warmaster. If Russ, as dumb as he is, even had an inkling that Horus was a traitor he would not have followed his orders so fully. Valdor didn't help things though either apparently and was just as much to blame for the attempted extermination of the Thousand Sons as Horus was.

If anything Sanguinius is one of Horus brothers that would be easiest to convince, he might not have carried out the task to it;s full outcome due to being one of the more humane Primarchs, but he certainly would have followed Horus orders.

No, he'd have demanded a meeting with Magnus first and make his own decision before following such controversial orders (relative to the Imperial Truth). That's the kind of Primarch Sanguinius was. And Valdor was in many ways like a radical Inquisitor - I remember the argument he had with Dorn in Nemesis, with Dorn believing that despite killing the enlightenment of the Imperial Truth the Imperium should still follow a moral code, but Valdor believed underhanded methods were more than justified fighting Horus. Dorn basically told Valdor to mind his own business and leave the defense of the Imperium to those who were actually meant to do it, whereas the Custodes were simply meant to protect the Emperor.

I have to say, that all this "Magnus did exactly what Tzeentch wanted in the end" talk needs to be slightly toned down.

In A Thousand Sons, we found out towards the end of the book, that Tzeentch had much greater plans for Magnus. Magnus basically told him to go die in a fire, and that he would accept his fate. The only thing that changed his mind, was the love he had for his children. Tzeentch may have won the day, but he didn't get near what he wanted out of the deal.

Just Dave wrote:

That would lead to some interesting alternatives though; what if the Wolves were not the ones sent to apprehend Magnus, but were instead able to defend Terra at the final battle?

Then there's a good chance the Thousand Sons would be defending the Palace with the Fists, Angels, and Scars. Also, Dorn might not have been in command, but the Emperor Himself. Magnus would have been keeping the Throne under control.

Tadashi wrote:
No, he'd have demanded a meeting with Magnus first and make his own decision before following such controversial orders (relative to the Imperial Truth). That's the kind of Primarch Sanguinius was.

And Russ did much the same before the Razing of Prospero. Russ wasn't to know that Kasper wasn't an agent of Magnus, everything seemed to suggest that he was. Who's to say that Magnus would not have acted the same way and left Sanguinius with no other course of action other than what the Wolves took. The Blood Angels were one of the Legions that were against Magnus at Nikaea, or at least Chapter Master Roldaron was.

Tadashi wrote: And Valdor was in many ways like a radical Inquisitor - I remember the argument he had with Dorn in Nemesis, with Dorn believing that despite killing the enlightenment of the Imperial Truth the Imperium should still follow a moral code, but Valdor believed underhanded methods were more than justified fighting Horus. Dorn basically told Valdor to mind his own business and leave the defense of the Imperium to those who were actually meant to do it, whereas the Custodes were simply meant to protect the Emperor.

His loyalty to the Emperor also made him blind

Tadashi wrote:

Just Dave wrote:

That would lead to some interesting alternatives though; what if the Wolves were not the ones sent to apprehend Magnus, but were instead able to defend Terra at the final battle?

Then there's a good chance the Thousand Sons would be defending the Palace with the Fists, Angels, and Scars. Also, Dorn might not have been in command, but the Emperor Himself. Magnus would have been keeping the Throne under control.

Or that all the Thousand Sons were imprisoned or killed for being traitors only leaving Magnus to be chained to the Golden Throne.