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2012/06/19 11:18:52
Subject: Re:Could the burning of Prospero have been handled differently?
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Pilau Rice wrote:Tadashi wrote:
No, he'd have demanded a meeting with Magnus first and make his own decision before following such controversial orders (relative to the Imperial Truth). That's the kind of Primarch Sanguinius was.
And Russ done much the same before the Razing of Prospero. Russ wasn't to know that Kasper wasn't an agent of Magnus, everything seemed to suggest that he was. Who's to say that Magnus would not have acted the same way and left Sanguinius with no other course of action other than what the Wolves took. The Blood Angels were one of the Legions that were against Magnus at Nikaea, or at least Chapter Master Roldaron was.
The Chapter Master was IMO. Sanguinius was a psyker of considerable power - he wouldn't have spoken out against Magnus in such a hypocritical manner. And even if he did, I doubt he liked what happened at the end of the Council. He would have wanted sorcery stopped, not a brother ostracized and all their powers condemned when they could be used properly. Let us not forget that Sanguinius was one of the few Primarchs with actual empathy, to the point that all the others (even Horus) looked up to him.
Then there's a good chance the Thousand Sons would be defending the Palace with the Fists, Angels, and Scars. Also, Dorn might not have been in command, but the Emperor Himself. Magnus would have been keeping the Throne under control.
Or that all the Thousand Sons were imprisoned or killed for being traitors.
Right, as if Magnus and the Emperor would let that happen. Malcador and Valdor would be setting themselves up for a serious reprimand if not outright execution if they destroyed a loyal legion (this assumes Magnus and his legion arrived on Terra) just when the Imperium needed all the soldiers it could get.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/19 11:22:35
Subject: Re:Could the burning of Prospero have been handled differently?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Tadashi wrote:Right, as if Magnus and the Emperor would let that happen. Malcador and Valdor would be setting themselves up for a serious reprimand if not outright execution if they destroyed a loyal legion (this assumes Magnus and his legion arrived on Terra) just when the Imperium needed all the soldiers it could get.
Like the "serious reprimand if not outright execution" Russ got?
*Again, Russ was just following orders*
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Enlist as a virtual Ultramarine! Click here for my Chaos Gate (PC) thread.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of."
- Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."
- Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
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2012/06/19 11:32:32
Subject: Re:Could the burning of Prospero have been handled differently?
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Just Dave wrote:Tadashi wrote:Right, as if Magnus and the Emperor would let that happen. Malcador and Valdor would be setting themselves up for a serious reprimand if not outright execution if they destroyed a loyal legion (this assumes Magnus and his legion arrived on Terra) just when the Imperium needed all the soldiers it could get.
Like the "serious reprimand if not outright execution" Russ got?
*Again, Russ was just following orders*
Who's going to reprimand him? An incapacitated Emperor more focused on rebuilding what was left of the Imperium? A dead Regent? A radical Custodian now without someone to tell him what to do?
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/19 11:33:27
Subject: Re:Could the burning of Prospero have been handled differently?
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Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh
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Tadashi wrote:The Chapter Master was IMO. Sanguinius was a psyker of considerable power - he wouldn't have spoken out against Magnus in such a hypocritical manner. And even if he did, I doubt he liked what happened at the end of the Council. He would have wanted sorcery stopped, not a brother ostracized and all their powers condemned when they could be used properly. Let us not forget that Sanguinius was one of the few Primarchs with actual empathy, to the point that all the others (even Horus) looked up to him.
Who does a Chapter Master follow and act for? And considerable power, he might have had some Psychic capability sure, but considerable, are you kidding me?
Tadashi wrote:Right, as if Magnus and the Emperor would let that happen. Malcador and Valdor would be setting themselves up for a serious reprimand if not outright execution if they destroyed a loyal legion (this assumes Magnus and his legion arrived on Terra) just when the Imperium needed all the soldiers it could get.
What, so if the Emperor demanded it then he would kill himself? It's quite possible that the Emperor demanded the execution of two legions already, what's a third if they have gone traitor?
So you would rather have a possible legion of traitors that could turn their guns and awesomesauce psychic powers on you, rather than not take the risk at all?
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No pity, no remorse, no shoes |
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2012/06/19 11:39:20
Subject: Re:Could the burning of Prospero have been handled differently?
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Pilau Rice wrote:Tadashi wrote:The Chapter Master was IMO. Sanguinius was a psyker of considerable power - he wouldn't have spoken out against Magnus in such a hypocritical manner. And even if he did, I doubt he liked what happened at the end of the Council. He would have wanted sorcery stopped, not a brother ostracized and all their powers condemned when they could be used properly. Let us not forget that Sanguinius was one of the few Primarchs with actual empathy, to the point that all the others (even Horus) looked up to him.
Who does a Chapter Master follow and act for? And considerable power, he might have had some Psychic capability sure, but considerable, are you kidding me?
My point was even if Sanguinius was against sorcery, he never would have wanted Magnus ostracized and all psychic abilities condemned. Tadashi wrote:Right, as if Magnus and the Emperor would let that happen. Malcador and Valdor would be setting themselves up for a serious reprimand if not outright execution if they destroyed a loyal legion (this assumes Magnus and his legion arrived on Terra) just when the Imperium needed all the soldiers it could get.
What, so if the Emperor demanded it then he would kill himself? It's quite possible that the Emperor demanded the execution of two legions already, what's a third if they have gone traitor?
Because Magnus was supposed to keep the Golden Throne under control. Magnus would probably have committed suicide rather than do that when his legion had been destroyed or condemned. And its never been confirmed that the two lost legions were destroyed. All the crap about Russ being an executioner comes from a rambling hypocrite. They condemn my brothers among the XV Legion for their talents. They condemn the flesh-change. Well then, I condemn them for their hypocrisy regarding the Rune Priests. I condemn the wulfen. How are the XV and VI Legions so different?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/19 11:45:39
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/19 11:56:39
Subject: Re:Could the burning of Prospero have been handled differently?
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Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh
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Tadashi wrote:Pilau Rice wrote:Tadashi wrote:The Chapter Master was IMO. Sanguinius was a psyker of considerable power - he wouldn't have spoken out against Magnus in such a hypocritical manner. And even if he did, I doubt he liked what happened at the end of the Council. He would have wanted sorcery stopped, not a brother ostracized and all their powers condemned when they could be used properly. Let us not forget that Sanguinius was one of the few Primarchs with actual empathy, to the point that all the others (even Horus) looked up to him.
Who does a Chapter Master follow and act for? And considerable power, he might have had some Psychic capability sure, but considerable, are you kidding me?
My point was even if Sanguinius was against sorcery, he never would have wanted Magnus ostracized and all psychic abilities condemned.
The ruling at Nikaea would seem to suggest otherwise. The Emperor even warned every Legion at Nikaea that you ignore his orders he will destroy you.
Tadashi wrote:Pilau Rice wrote:Tadashi wrote:Right, as if Magnus and the Emperor would let that happen. Malcador and Valdor would be setting themselves up for a serious reprimand if not outright execution if they destroyed a loyal legion (this assumes Magnus and his legion arrived on Terra) just when the Imperium needed all the soldiers it could get.
What, so if the Emperor demanded it then he would kill himself? It's quite possible that the Emperor demanded the execution of two legions already, what's a third if they have gone traitor?
Because Magnus was supposed to keep the Golden Throne under control. Magnus would probably have committed suicide rather than do that when his legion had been destroyed or condemned.
And its never been confirmed that the two lost legions were destroyed. All the crap about Russ being an executioner comes from a rambling hypocrite. They condemn my brothers among the XV Legion for their talents. They condemn the flesh-change. Well then, I condemn them for their hypocrisy regarding the Rune Priests. I condemn the wulfen. How are the XV and VI Legions so different?
No it's not, but it's implied for at least one Legion regardless of Russ and his bluster. Would the Emperor have given Magnus the option though, if he was that important I'm sure there would be some method for the Emperor to do both. One of my theories is that the Emperor orchestrated the flesh change in the Thousand Sons to get this outcome as he knew that Magnus would never leave his Sons willingly, but that's for a different thread.
I agree with you about Russ though.
Also, it's not real ...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/19 12:01:45
No pity, no remorse, no shoes |
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2012/06/19 12:01:26
Subject: Re:Could the burning of Prospero have been handled differently?
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Pilau Rice wrote:
The ruling at Nikaea would seem to suggest otherwise. The Emperor even warned every Legion at Nikaea that you ignore his orders he will destroy you.
Well, Sanguinius was very loyal to the Imperium. He might not have liked the outcome, but he never would have spoken out against it.
Because Magnus was supposed to keep the Golden Throne under control. Magnus would probably have committed suicide rather than do that when his legion had been destroyed or condemned.
And its never been confirmed that the two lost legions were destroyed. All the crap about Russ being an executioner comes from a rambling hypocrite. They condemn my brothers among the XV Legion for their talents. They condemn the flesh-change. Well then, I condemn them for their hypocrisy regarding the Rune Priests. I condemn the wulfen. How are the XV and VI Legions so different?
No it's not, but it's implied for at least one Legion. Would the Emperor have given Magnus the option though, if he was that important I'm sure there would be some method for the Emperor to do both. One of my theories is that the Emperor orchestrated the flesh change in the Thousand Sons to get this outcome as he knew that Magnus would never leave his Sons willingly, b ut that's for a different thread.
I agree with you about Russ though.
True, the Emperor was probably going to give the Golden Throne and a cure for the flesh-change to Magnus when the time was right.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/19 12:04:58
Subject: Re:Could the burning of Prospero have been handled differently?
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Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh
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Tadashi wrote:Pilau Rice wrote:
The ruling at Nikaea would seem to suggest otherwise. The Emperor even warned every Legion at Nikaea that you ignore his orders he will destroy you.
Well, Sanguinius was very loyal to the Imperium. He might not have liked the outcome, but he never would have spoken out against it.
And he would have followed Horus orders, which were for the benefit of the Imperium, apparently coming from the Emperor. We come full circle.
Tadashi wrote:True, the Emperor was probably going to give the Golden Throne and a cure for the flesh-change to Magnus when the time was right.
Why would he bother? He would get what he needed. The Emperor doesn't take care of his tools.
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No pity, no remorse, no shoes |
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2012/06/19 12:12:44
Subject: Re:Could the burning of Prospero have been handled differently?
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Pilau Rice wrote:Tadashi wrote:Pilau Rice wrote:
The ruling at Nikaea would seem to suggest otherwise. The Emperor even warned every Legion at Nikaea that you ignore his orders he will destroy you.
Well, Sanguinius was very loyal to the Imperium. He might not have liked the outcome, but he never would have spoken out against it.
And he would have followed Horus orders, which were for the benefit of the Imperium, apparently coming from the Emperor. We come full circle.
Except they were completely contrary to everything the Emperor believed and everything He, Sanguinius, and the Imperium stood for. He would have insisted on speaking to Magnus in person, unlike Russ, who the moment he thought Magnus was refusing to meet him, went medieval on Prospero. Tadashi wrote:True, the Emperor was probably going to give the Golden Throne and a cure for the flesh-change to Magnus when the time was right.
Why would he bother? He would get what he needed. The Emperor doesn't take care of his tools.
Except Magnus is His son. He held back against Horus, even though he had just brutally killed Sanguinius. Even when He met Inquisitor Draco ten thousand years later, it was obvious the Emperor regretted having failed to see what would happen to Horus and the others, but especially about Horus. Magnus was the Emperor's finest student. He was supposed to receive a gift equal to the title and position of Warmaster - the Golden Throne and the Webway.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/19 12:12:58
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/19 12:19:33
Subject: Re:Could the burning of Prospero have been handled differently?
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Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh
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Ok Tadashi, the Emperor is a nice guy and never did any bad nor would do and I'm sorry for thinking anything else.
Tadashi wrote: He was supposed to receive a gift equal to the title and position of Warmaster - the Golden Throne and the Webway.
Some gift
Dear Dad
Thank you for turning me into a psychic battery
Love Magnus
I know what one I would have chosen if it was offered to me.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/19 12:21:05
No pity, no remorse, no shoes |
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2012/06/19 12:48:52
Subject: Re:Could the burning of Prospero have been handled differently?
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Pilau Rice wrote:Ok Tadashi, the Emperor is a nice guy and never did any bad nor would do and I'm sorry for thinking anything else.
Tadashi wrote: He was supposed to receive a gift equal to the title and position of Warmaster - the Golden Throne and the Webway.
Some gift
Dear Dad
Thank you for turning me into a psychic battery
Love Magnus
I know what one I would have chosen if it was offered to me.
Ha ha, we are all amused. I'm pretty sure Magnus just had to hold the Webway until the Emperor and the Mechanicus could crack the secret of replicating the Webway's construction materials. Even then, Magnus would still lead the conquest and exploration of the Webway.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/19 12:58:36
Subject: Could the burning of Prospero have been handled differently?
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Fixture of Dakka
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I liked the general premise behind the OP's question; it proposed a nice conundrum/potential alternative 'reality'.
I was also pleasantly surprised that many people seemed to agree with Russ' course of action, all things considered.
Seems to have gone down-hill IMHO...
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Enlist as a virtual Ultramarine! Click here for my Chaos Gate (PC) thread.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of."
- Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."
- Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
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2012/06/19 13:07:56
Subject: Could the burning of Prospero have been handled differently?
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Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh
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Just Dave wrote:I liked the general premise behind the OP's question; it proposed a nice conundrum/potential alternative 'reality'.
I was also pleasantly surprised that many people seemed to agree with Russ' course of action, all things considered.
Well, there wasn't really much he could do, he was following the Emperors orders after all.
Just Dave wrote:Seems to have gone down-hill IMHO...
I feel dirty, not in the good way either.
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No pity, no remorse, no shoes |
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