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well i have recently gotten into playing sisters of battle and threw the white dwarf codex learned abit about them and liked the small part 'Wars od faith' which covered their conflicts worth mentioning and i was curious what else have they done? what has happened in books and older codex which is still considered canon?
i know very little on who they dislike, which armies they conflict with most and who they have allied with/get along with most nevermind who is who and what epic triumphs and fails they have had since their creation.
40k does not actually have a canon policy, which is why the various codices, novels, etc may occasionally conflict with each other. Authors are quite simply not forced to stick to detail beyond getting the absolute basics (like "there's a God-Emperor and he's dead" right. It is up to you as the individual player to craft your personal vision from your preferred combination of the various sources as well as, optionally, any ideas you might have yourself.
For your questions, however, I will provide answers taken from GW studio material of the various editions:
The Sisters follow a stern interpretation of the Imperial Decree as taught universally across the entire Sisterhood, and as such have pretty high standards that not all Imperials are able to reach, or indeed even try to achieve. Most notably here would be the Adeptus Mechanicus and its barely tolerated machine faith and the Space Marines, most of whom openly dismiss the notion of the Emperor being a God at all.
The relationship to the Adeptus Mechanicus is further complicated by a long-standing rivalry between it and the Ecclesiarchy: The Mechanicus crafts some of the advanced wargear and many everyday devices for the Ministorum, receiving high sums of payment in return. Both organisations continue to attempt to pull each other over the table, however, often over fine print in various contract. For example, Sebastian Thor basically stole the machinery Vandire had once acquired for the construction of weapons and armor for his "Brides of the Emperor", simply having it transferred to Ophelia VII instead of returning it to the Mechanicus. The Mechanicus on the other hand secretly violated another contract by inventing the Hellhound tank for the Imperial Guard, using knowledge gained from an STC whose contents were supposed to remain exclusive for the Ecclesiarchy (-> Immolator tank). Yet there is still an ongoing and relatively stable technology trade between both the Mechanicus and the Ministorum, with the Missionarius Galaxia and the AdMech Explorator Fleets competing with each other on who gets to discover lost tech first.
With the Space Marines, it has always been a somewhat complicated matter. The Astartes are truly the Sons of the Emperor, being His own creation and having fought alongside Him in the past. On the other hand, many in the Ecclesiarchy believe they can no longer be called "human", as their genetically modified and heavily augmented bodies deviate far from their concept of the Sacred Human Form. Most disturbing are reports of geneseed mutations and heretical rituals, even up to cannibalism. It is thus not unsurprising that there have been armed clashes between some Marine Chapters and the Ecclesiarchy in the past, though it has to be said that they are usually sparked by some particularly zealous individual within the clergy or the Sisterhood. Some Orders of the Sororitas follow a mandate of policing the purity of Imperial forces, and may at times extend this even to the Space Marines, as was the case with Canoness Dissenta (yes, that was her name ) leading the Order of the Argent Shroud in a quick campaign against various outposts of the Angels Vermillion. Usually, however, it is a high-ranking cleric of the Ministorum who will order a force of Sororitas sent against a Chapter. An example of this would be a recent campaign against the Space Wolves in retaliation for the murder of a priestly delegation dispatched to Fenris. In addition to this, the Sisters of Battle are also many a Inquisitor's preferred choice for purging rogue Marine Chapters, for they are the only Imperial force outside the Space Marines themselves that has any chance of success without having to rely on a protracted war of attrition. The six Major Orders keep specialized equipment, including Dominica-pattern Drop Pods, for just this very purpose of a quick pre-emptive strike against the stronghold of a Chapter condemned for either its mutations, heretical practices or actions (or lack thereof). An example of this would be an (unsuccessful) attack on the Sons of Malice led by some Inquisitor Pietas. Though the assault failed and the Space Marines managed to flee into the Eye of Terror, their former homeworld was eventually cleansed by the Imperial Guard. Another Chapter the Sisters seem to have a problem with would be the Flesh Tearers, with whom the Order of the Argent Shroud cooperated during the Third War for Armageddon. Canoness Carmina's report on them can be found on this preserved copy of the official campaign website. The Flesh Tearers are "currently" facing excommunication (which would come with an attempt to destroy them for good), but since the timeline is stuck at 999.M41 it is doubtful this will ever actually happen.
On the upside, the above history of negative relationships does not extend to any and all Marine Chapters, and indeed there have been many times where Marines and Sisters fought side by side against their common foe. For example, the Black Templars Chapter fought in the Vinculus Crusade alongside the Order of the Bloody Rose, with High Marshal Helmbrecht, Emperor's Champion Ulricus and Canoness Jasmine alone facing a massive daemon of Khorne in an epic fight that was included in the Chapter annals as the Battle of Fire and Blood. Another case was a battle of the Salamanders Chapter against Black Legion CSMs on the heavily urbanized world of Heletine, where the Order of the Ebon Chalice reinforced the battered Space Marines and both armies' warriors combined their strength against the demonic hordes of the Daemon Prince Gralastyx. Generally, it is said that both the Sisters of Battle as well as the Space Marines respect each others battle prowess and skill at arms, but the relationship can still range from friendly to loathed all depending on the history of an individual Chapter, and the personality or traditions of its members.
As for the Imperial Guard, it should come to no surprise that they get along fairly well, as all proper citizens of the Imperium are adherents of the One True Faith, and every Guard regiment has Ministorum Confessors attached to ensure the spiritual wellbeing of its soldiers. The Sisters' faith, devotion and bravery have many times proven to be inspiring to battered Guard forces, not to mention the purely military effect of their power-armoured assistance on the battlefield. It should be pointed out, however, that this only works well as long as both armies have a common foe to fight, as in times of peace the sheltered Sisters that have grown up in total seclusion from the outside world may find many ordinary Imperial citizens not quite adhering to the Sisterhood's stern interpretation of the faith, not to mention its rules regarding proper behaviour for the pious servant. To point you to the former Armageddon campaign website once more (as it is such a fluff-filled resource both easy and legal to reach), here is a missive from General Kurov concerning this matter.
Contrary to what many may believe, the Sisterhood actually has a fairly rich history in GW material - much of it is just scattered over dozens of sources, many of whom are difficult to come by these days (such as old issues of White Dwarf).
If you happen to have more detailed questions, I'd be happy to look up more stuff for you. Have you chosen a particular Order Militant about which you might like to know more? Even if you are going with your own customized Minor Order, it would have to be linked to one of the "Big Six" in its history, so you do have the option of "tapping" its background.
The present Allies rules seem to be very odd at capturing the correct fluff in these matters and in the case of the SOB is just plain wrong. This is a shame as allied contingents would be the prefect way to represent the SOB in war as they are nromally only present in very small numbers.
There are several dedicated SOB novels available and (IMO) they are also well portrayed in the recent Legion of the Damned.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
The present Allies rules seem to be very odd at capturing the correct fluff in these matters and in the case of the SOB is just plain wrong. This is a shame as allied contingents would be the prefect way to represent the SOB in war as they are nromally only present in very small numbers.
What part seems wrong to you?
I think they got the Sisters pretty much right. Don't play well with others except for Guardsmen who represent a huge cross section of Imperial forces. The 3rd Edition Codex: Witch Hunters was always an afterthought codex designed to sell some new Inquisition models, and, oh, see if the Sisters will sell if we give them some new models. A permanent teaming of the Ecclessiarchy and the Inquisition was never very fluffy.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Veteran Sergeant wrote:What part seems wrong to you?
As mentioned in a couple other threads, the order of "popularity" of certain Marine Chapters is absolutely random and does not reflect either the existing background nor the history of these certain Chapters. The idea of the Sisters getting along better with the Space Wolves than the Black Templars is ... odd.
The present Allies rules seem to be very odd at capturing the correct fluff in these matters and in the case of the SOB is just plain wrong. This is a shame as allied contingents would be the prefect way to represent the SOB in war as they are nromally only present in very small numbers.
What part seems wrong to you?
I think they got the Sisters pretty much right. Don't play well with others except for Guardsmen who represent a huge cross section of Imperial forces. The 3rd Edition Codex: Witch Hunters was always an afterthought codex designed to sell some new Inquisition models, and, oh, see if the Sisters will sell if we give them some new models. A permanent teaming of the Ecclessiarchy and the Inquisition was never very fluffy.
Its clear from the established fluff that the SOB would likely be "brothers" in battle with Imperial Guard, Codex Marines and the Black Templars and def not the Space Wolves, that they are as likely to ally with the Eldar and Dark Eldar as the Black Templars in nonsense............ They have fought alongside the first three - they have fought against the others - I am hoping its an error............
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
I don't know much but alot of people I know think space wolves are a good match for sisters since they hunt chaos/corruption like the wolves they are. But don't they have views on the empire that clashes with other chapters nevermind the zealot sisters of battle which would make relations between them more strained?
The Sisterhood are hardline Zealots who have fought the Wolves in the past at the behst of the Church. The Wolves practise a number of heretical practices at odds with the views of the Church - only competing with Chapters like the Blood Angels and Dark Angels in these matters.
Many Codex Chapters and deeply religious/psyker intollerant Chapters will have much in common with the Sisterhood.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
The present Allies rules seem to be very odd at capturing the correct fluff in these matters and in the case of the SOB is just plain wrong. This is a shame as allied contingents would be the prefect way to represent the SOB in war as they are nromally only present in very small numbers.
What part seems wrong to you?
I think they got the Sisters pretty much right. Don't play well with others except for Guardsmen who represent a huge cross section of Imperial forces. The 3rd Edition Codex: Witch Hunters was always an afterthought codex designed to sell some new Inquisition models, and, oh, see if the Sisters will sell if we give them some new models. A permanent teaming of the Ecclessiarchy and the Inquisition was never very fluffy.
Its clear from the established fluff that the SOB would likely be "brothers" in battle with Imperial Guard, Codex Marines and the Black Templars and def not the Space Wolves, that they are as likely to ally with the Eldar and Dark Eldar as the Black Templars in nonsense............ They have fought alongside the first three - they have fought against the others - I am hoping its an error............
Clear?
How so? Very little evidence to support this, and plenty of reasons against it. I don't see any reason for Space Marines to want Sisters of Battle around unless to use them as cannon fodder. A mission they aren't very good at due to their limited numbers. The Black Templars may have fought alongside them in the past, but I don't think that makes them likely allies. It is the difference of two conversations:
"You hate witches? We hate witches. There's a witch over there. We should kill her!"
and
"You hate witches? We hate witches too! We should totally hang out. Just so long as you promise not to tell anybody about our illegal army, illegal fleet. Oh, and realizethat we think your religion is utter bullcrap, we're probably not going to really treat you like allies, and pursue our own agenda instead. Oh, and all the while, feel free to report our movements to the Inquisition, the Ecclessiarchy and High Lords, that's cool"
You guys get confused by the 4 tier Ally system. The first two are like this:
"Totally allies all the time"
"Well, we've got a common mission, and we could use your help"
The third level, desperate allies, covers a lot of ground. You're looking at it entirely wrong. It isn't that the Templars are just as likely to ally with Eldar or Dark Eldar, or even Necrons. It's that they are less likely to ally with Sisters than they are the Inquisition. "Desperate Allies" is a broad category, simply because the only category after it is "No Allying At All". It seems like some of you would just feel better if there was a 5 tier system, and one called "Allies only for a Really Good Reason" so that there's a difference between Space Marines simply disliking Sisters and them really, really disliking Necrons.
Like I've mentioned in the past, if the Black Templars were written, very poorly, to be natural allies of the Sisters, that's all it was, poor writing. This new chart just means that somebody in the writing department of Games Workshop got smarter and realized "Just because they're both radical Christian crusader" themed, doesn't mean that they would be natural allies in the far more complex 40K universe. Because they aren't. At all.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Speaking of allies, do any of you think any of the "Famous Regiments of the Imperial Guard" are more/less likely to get along with the Sisters in battle?
DeathRex wrote:I don't know much but alot of people I know think space wolves are a good match for sisters since they hunt chaos/corruption like the wolves they are. But don't they have views on the empire that clashes with other chapters nevermind the zealot sisters of battle which would make relations between them more strained?
Yes, which is why they've fought against each other on Fenris. Basically, the Ministorum thinks the SW are a bunch of heretic mutants, and the SW think they don't have to take gak from the Ecclesiarchy and that it's perfectly okay to shoot Ministorum priests on sight.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:I don't see any reason for Space Marines to want Sisters of Battle around unless to use them as cannon fodder.
The reason would be that members of both organisations "respect each other's prowess and skill at arms", to quote the fluff.
Doctrinal differences exist, yet you could say the same about the Marine Chapters who have feuded in the past, or certain Blood Angels Successor Chapters vs the Imperial Guard. The fact is that the existing material has shown no evidence at all of Marines - at least some of their Chapters- hesitating to ally with Sisters. In fact, the few bits of fluff we have about cooperations show no problems whatsoever and instead highlight how they fought shoulder to shoulder.
I'm quite sure that some Chapters would like to see the Sisters as "cannonfodder" - just like they see the Imperial Guard as such - but similar to the latter there are a number of exceptions from this rule. If it is a rule, anyways.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Black Templars may have fought alongside them in the past, but I don't think that makes them likely allies.
Definitively more likely than the Space Wolves. Explain to me why, of all Chapters, the Black Templars seem to be the "most disliked" of all Marines? That is the total opposite of what the background made it sound like.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:It seems like some of you would just feel better if there was a 5 tier system, and one called "Allies only for a Really Good Reason" so that there's a difference between Space Marines simply disliking Sisters and them really, really disliking Necrons.
No, I think the current number of tiers is perfectly enough. What we'd really like is the allies system actually taking existing fluff into consideration.
And anyways, judging from the current chart, more tiers would likely only mean that the 'nids would finally be allowed to ally with someone too.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Like I've mentioned in the past, if the Black Templars were written, very poorly, to be natural allies of the Sisters, that's all it was, poor writing.
Well, my interpretation disagrees with your personal opinion, and I'd prefer this "poor writing" (why, exactly?) to have an effect on the chart - simply because this is what we've grown up with.
It is admittably debatable whether any Marine Chapter would deserve to be "Brothers in Arms" with the Sisterhood (just as it is debatable whether so many Marine Chapters should truly be "Brothers in Arms" with each other or the Imperial Guard), yet if there was any it'd be the Black Templars. It should be clear that the Space Wolves should occupy the last spot on the tier, simply because nearly everything they stand for is everything the Sisters fight. If these two would at least swap places, it would go a long way to make the chart somewhat more fluffy.
jms40k wrote:Speaking of allies, do any of you think any of the "Famous Regiments of the Imperial Guard" are more/less likely to get along with the Sisters in battle?
Hum. We know little of the religious attitudes of their worlds. But if I were to hazard a guess, I'd say the Kriegs and the Mordians would get along well with the Sororitas - the former share the Sisters' penitent spirit and the latter share their discipline. Less likely to get along well are probably those regiments who are lacking in discipline, like the Savlars or the Necromundians.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/01 18:01:35
This torch will forever burn bright with my zealousy, thanks for the warm welcome!
Thanks for the information you have given me here I appppreciate the effort made to inform me of such awesome happenings.
Oh when it comes to the different orders I dont know much and was going to look them up/ask here for any information about them. I'm not aware of any color scheme, emblems, functions or even 100% sure of their names to be honest. If you wouldn't mind informing me I'm more than willing and grateful to listen.
Lynata wrote:A new player joining the crusading armies of the Ecclesiarchy? Welcome, welcome, here's your torch!
40k does not actually have a canon policy, which is why the various codices, novels, etc may occasionally conflict with each other. Authors are quite simply not forced to stick to detail beyond getting the absolute basics (like "there's a God-Emperor and he's dead" right. It is up to you as the individual player to craft your personal vision from your preferred combination of the various sources as well as, optionally, any ideas you might have yourself.
For your questions, however, I will provide answers taken from GW studio material of the various editions:
The Sisters follow a stern interpretation of the Imperial Decree as taught universally across the entire Sisterhood, and as such have pretty high standards that not all Imperials are able to reach, or indeed even try to achieve. Most notably here would be the Adeptus Mechanicus and its barely tolerated machine faith and the Space Marines, most of whom openly dismiss the notion of the Emperor being a God at all.
The relationship to the Adeptus Mechanicus is further complicated by a long-standing rivalry between it and the Ecclesiarchy: The Mechanicus crafts some of the advanced wargear and many everyday devices for the Ministorum, receiving high sums of payment in return. Both organisations continue to attempt to pull each other over the table, however, often over fine print in various contract. For example, Sebastian Thor basically stole the machinery Vandire had once acquired for the construction of weapons and armor for his "Brides of the Emperor", simply having it transferred to Ophelia VII instead of returning it to the Mechanicus. The Mechanicus on the other hand secretly violated another contract by inventing the Hellhound tank for the Imperial Guard, using knowledge gained from an STC whose contents were supposed to remain exclusive for the Ecclesiarchy (-> Immolator tank). Yet there is still an ongoing and relatively stable technology trade between both the Mechanicus and the Ministorum, with the Missionarius Galaxia and the AdMech Explorator Fleets competing with each other on who gets to discover lost tech first.
With the Space Marines, it has always been a somewhat complicated matter. The Astartes are truly the Sons of the Emperor, being His own creation and having fought alongside Him in the past. On the other hand, many in the Ecclesiarchy believe they can no longer be called "human", as their genetically modified and heavily augmented bodies deviate far from their concept of the Sacred Human Form. Most disturbing are reports of geneseed mutations and heretical rituals, even up to cannibalism. It is thus not unsurprising that there have been armed clashes between some Marine Chapters and the Ecclesiarchy in the past, though it has to be said that they are usually sparked by some particularly zealous individual within the clergy or the Sisterhood. Some Orders of the Sororitas follow a mandate of policing the purity of Imperial forces, and may at times extend this even to the Space Marines, as was the case with Canoness Dissenta (yes, that was her name ) leading the Order of the Argent Shroud in a quick campaign against various outposts of the Angels Vermillion. Usually, however, it is a high-ranking cleric of the Ministorum who will order a force of Sororitas sent against a Chapter. An example of this would be a recent campaign against the Space Wolves in retaliation for the murder of a priestly delegation dispatched to Fenris. In addition to this, the Sisters of Battle are also many a Inquisitor's preferred choice for purging rogue Marine Chapters, for they are the only Imperial force outside the Space Marines themselves that has any chance of success without having to rely on a protracted war of attrition. The six Major Orders keep specialized equipment, including Dominica-pattern Drop Pods, for just this very purpose of a quick pre-emptive strike against the stronghold of a Chapter condemned for either its mutations, heretical practices or actions (or lack thereof). An example of this would be an (unsuccessful) attack on the Sons of Malice led by some Inquisitor Pietas. Though the assault failed and the Space Marines managed to flee into the Eye of Terror, their former homeworld was eventually cleansed by the Imperial Guard. Another Chapter the Sisters seem to have a problem with would be the Flesh Tearers, with whom the Order of the Argent Shroud cooperated during the Third War for Armageddon. Canoness Carmina's report on them can be found on this preserved copy of the official campaign website. The Flesh Tearers are "currently" facing excommunication (which would come with an attempt to destroy them for good), but since the timeline is stuck at 999.M41 it is doubtful this will ever actually happen.
On the upside, the above history of negative relationships does not extend to any and all Marine Chapters, and indeed there have been many times where Marines and Sisters fought side by side against their common foe. For example, the Black Templars Chapter fought in the Vinculus Crusade alongside the Order of the Bloody Rose, with High Marshal Helmbrecht, Emperor's Champion Ulricus and Canoness Jasmine alone facing a massive daemon of Khorne in an epic fight that was included in the Chapter annals as the Battle of Fire and Blood. Another case was a battle of the Salamanders Chapter against Black Legion CSMs on the heavily urbanized world of Heletine, where the Order of the Ebon Chalice reinforced the battered Space Marines and both armies' warriors combined their strength against the demonic hordes of the Daemon Prince Gralastyx. Generally, it is said that both the Sisters of Battle as well as the Space Marines respect each others battle prowess and skill at arms, but the relationship can still range from friendly to loathed all depending on the history of an individual Chapter, and the personality or traditions of its members.
As for the Imperial Guard, it should come to no surprise that they get along fairly well, as all proper citizens of the Imperium are adherents of the One True Faith, and every Guard regiment has Ministorum Confessors attached to ensure the spiritual wellbeing of its soldiers. The Sisters' faith, devotion and bravery have many times proven to be inspiring to battered Guard forces, not to mention the purely military effect of their power-armoured assistance on the battlefield. It should be pointed out, however, that this only works well as long as both armies have a common foe to fight, as in times of peace the sheltered Sisters that have grown up in total seclusion from the outside world may find many ordinary Imperial citizens not quite adhering to the Sisterhood's stern interpretation of the faith, not to mention its rules regarding proper behaviour for the pious servant. To point you to the former Armageddon campaign website once more (as it is such a fluff-filled resource both easy and legal to reach), here is a missive from General Kurov concerning this matter.
Contrary to what many may believe, the Sisterhood actually has a fairly rich history in GW material - much of it is just scattered over dozens of sources, many of whom are difficult to come by these days (such as old issues of White Dwarf).
If you happen to have more detailed questions, I'd be happy to look up more stuff for you. Have you chosen a particular Order Militant about which you might like to know more? Even if you are going with your own customized Minor Order, it would have to be linked to one of the "Big Six" in its history, so you do have the option of "tapping" its background.
DeathRex wrote:Oh when it comes to the different orders I dont know much and was going to look them up/ask here for any information about them. I'm not aware of any color scheme, emblems, functions or even 100% sure of their names to be honest. If you wouldn't mind informing me I'm more than willing and grateful to listen.
Huh, I didn't even realize the WD Minidex was lacking the page about the Orders' color schemes. Talk about GW cheaping out on us.
Anyhow, the Orders Militant traditionally employ the colours red, black and white - the colours of the original Daughters of the Emperor as they existed on San Leor before Vandire found them. To better differentiate units from the various Orders on the battlefield, however, they use these colours in different combinations on their robes and power armour. The six Major Orders each use two of the aforementioned colours - one on their robes, one on their armour.
Here's a quick scan:
Spoiler:
Note that the Order of Our Martyred Lady has since changed the black of their robes for red, because the Order had lost several thousand Sisters during the Third War for Armageddon. They've been working hard to get their numbers back to strength since then, tapping the Schola Progenium for new novices to be trained in the Convent Sanctorum on Ophelia VII.
You can also come up with non-standard schemes using colours other than the three mentioned before, but that would be a deviation from the studio material. I have a White Dwarf issue lying around somewhere that did offer some pretty spiffy non-standard variations, though. And nice painting advice, in case you're interested.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/01 18:14:55
Veteran Sergeant wrote:I don't see any reason for Space Marines to want Sisters of Battle around unless to use them as cannon fodder.
The reason would be that members of both organisations "respect each other's prowess and skill at arms", to quote the fluff.
Respect of ability is one thing. Wanting somebody around is a different story. A fairly good real world example. Air Force Combat Controllers. They are highly respected in the military community, and routinely attached to Army units for the purpose of serving as air controllers coordinating air assets for airstrikes, medevacs, etc. In the Marine Corps, the Marines have their own forward air controllers. Don't think for a second that even though the Army respects the AFCCs that they wouldn't get rid of them in a second if the Air Force would allow the Army to send more of its people to the schools. The Air Force imposes Combat Controllers on the Army as a matter of politics, not necessity.
Doctrinal differences exist, yet you could say the same about the Marine Chapters who have feuded in the past, or certain Blood Angels Successor Chapters vs the Imperial Guard. The fact is that the existing material has shown no evidence at all of Marines - at least some of their Chapters- hesitating to ally with Sisters. In fact, the few bits of fluff we have about cooperations show no problems whatsoever and instead highlight how they fought shoulder to shoulder.
This isn't about doctrine. It's about fundamental philosophical differences. Certain Spess Mahreens might not get along with other Spess Mahreens at any given time, but in the end, with a few exceptions, Spess Mahreens are still Spess Mahreens for the Emprah. Sisters are not for the Emprah. They are for some fictional God-Emperor and part of an organization that has spent the last ten thousand years perverting the Emperor's vision. Given how absurdly obsessive the Black Tempars are about Nikea, one can only imagine that the Ecclessiarchy probably also would bug the heck out of them, even more so than other Chapters.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Black Templars may have fought alongside them in the past, but I don't think that makes them likely allies.
Definitively more likely than the Space Wolves. Explain to me why, of all Chapters, the Black Templars seem to be the "most disliked" of all Marines? That is the total opposite of what the background made it sound like.
This is a situation of "Two wrongs not making a right." I agree the Space Wolves and Sisters probably should also be Desperate Allies. Game wise, I'd think Sisters players should take what they can get. The Black Templars Codex allies aren't nearly as useful as a Rune Priest, some Grey Hunters, and Long Fangs to overcome some of the Sisters list's tactical deficiencies, lol. Fluff wise, maybe the Spess Wolves don't hold a grudge and decided to call it even.
As far as the "most disliked", I think again this is a perspective problem. You see the Black Templars limited allies being people unwilling to ally with them, when, more likely given their disposition, it's the Black Templars being unwilling to work with others. They're running a fleet and Chapter of absolutely heretical size, often pursuing their own agenda under the guise of a crusade they declared ten thousand years ago that seems to no longer have any coherent vision or mission, nor any centralized leadership.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:It seems like some of you would just feel better if there was a 5 tier system, and one called "Allies only for a Really Good Reason" so that there's a difference between Space Marines simply disliking Sisters and them really, really disliking Necrons.
No, I think the current number of tiers is perfectly enough. What we'd really like is the allies system actually taking existing fluff into consideration.
In my opinion, it does so reasonably well. There are a few niggling points, but they're pretty minor. Mostly around the Tau and Space Marines being "Battle Brothers". Until we see some changes in the fluff, I don't get that one at all. Even then, not sure I like it at all. The Space Marines have been the galaxy's xenophobic galactic thugs for twenty five years. Why is this suddenly changing?
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Like I've mentioned in the past, if the Black Templars were written, very poorly, to be natural allies of the Sisters, that's all it was, poor writing.
Well, my interpretation disagrees with your personal opinion, and I'd prefer this "poor writing" (why, exactly?) to have an effect on the chart - simply because this is what we've grown up with.
Plenty of people grew up with Squats, and Zoats, and Genestealers Cults, among other things. They got changed too. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not. Squats came back. Seems Zoats did too. 6th Edition seems to be changing some of the fluff of the last decade. As far as to "why exactly" I think it was poor writing, if this isn't painfully clear from my very explicit detailing, it's never going to be, and it's a reading comprehension issue, not a presentation one, even if you decide to disagree out of personal preference.
(just as it is debatable whether so many Marine Chapters should truly be "Brothers in Arms" with each other or the Imperial Guard),
The Imperial Guard represents a gigantic cross section of units and ideologies. It's not like they stamp these guys out of a cookie cutter. Ultramar's PDF would most certainly be Guard (equivalent) Brothers in Arms to a C:SM list painted as Ultramarines (or successors). Just as a regiment raised on a Shrine world might not care for Space Marines, but could find themselves in league with Sisters of Battle, no sweat. If there was ever a "catchall" Imperium faction that can be just about anything you want (within reason), it's the Guard. Heck, that's easily evidenced by the fact that there are no fewer than ten "modern" Imperial Guard model ranges, all with "unique" back stories. Cadian, Catachan, Mordian, Tallarn, Valhallan, Praetorian, Steel Legion, Vostroyan, Elysian, and Krieg, with two smaller supplemental ranges in the Tanith and Attilans.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/01 18:36:56
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
For multitudes of dakkanauts, yes. For you? I don't think so.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
How so? Very little evidence to support this, and plenty of reasons against it.
Background = Evidence.
Last time one promised plenty of evidence in a background thread, i was dissapointed with silence. So lets see:
I don't see any reason for Space Marines to want Sisters of Battle around unless to use them as cannon fodder. A mission they aren't very good at due to their limited numbers. The Black Templars may have fought alongside them in the past, but I don't think that makes them likely allies.
Where did GW state any imperial faction treats sisters as cannonfodder?
Who fought alongside sisters without taking their blood for some warp-tainted rituals?
Who played taxi for them?
Who is a preferrable ally: one who supports and respects you or the other who ignores you or tells you to sod off?
It is the difference of two conversations:
"You hate witches? We hate witches. There's a witch over there. We should kill her!"
and
"You hate witches? We hate witches too! We should totally hang out. Just so long as you promise not to tell anybody about our illegal army, illegal fleet. Oh, and realizethat we think your religion is utter bullcrap, we're probably not going to really treat you like allies, and pursue our own agenda instead. Oh, and all the while, feel free to report our movements to the Inquisition, the Ecclessiarchy and High Lords, that's cool"
Oh really?
When there is no GW publication, create your own fluff .....
You guys get confused by the 4 tier Ally system. The first two are like this:
"Totally allies all the time"
"Well, we've got a common mission, and we could use your help"
All imperial forces are allies all the time in general, until someone turns its back on the IoM. Just saying.
Sure its a wide Galaxy and a certain level of powerplay could ruin the common war effort a bit more often than is good for the IoM.
But the levels we get on this chart are not based on one aspect of the game. They are a wild mix of fluff and balance and feel like one rolled a D6 to decide who's best buds and who is apoc only.
The third level, desperate allies, covers a lot of ground. You're looking at it entirely wrong. It isn't that the Templars are just as likely to ally with Eldar or Dark Eldar, or even Necrons. It's that they are less likely to ally with Sisters than they are the Inquisition. "Desperate Allies" is a broad category, simply because the only category after it is "No Allying At All". It seems like some of you would just feel better if there was a 5 tier system, and one called "Allies only for a Really Good Reason" so that there's a difference between Space Marines simply disliking Sisters and them really, really disliking Necrons.
Sorry, desperate allies leads to units doing nothing, so calling it broad isn't right.
No need for more tiers at all.
The middle tier, does nothing and allows to get along without problems, which seems to be the way to go for every alliance against a common foe as most "little plastic figurines" represent forces who could focus on the mission at hand, at least for these few turns and the small amount of time a game of 40k stands for. If i want an all out fight, I'd play multiple players and not a 'primary detachment plus allies' , which is most likely a one person solution, IMHO.
Category four is apoc. Seems its still : bring all of it and thus zero not allying at all if one can accept different types of the game.
BT are not less likely to ally with humans than they are with xenos, xenos witches and undead robot people who beat their Marshal and had their flagship ruined in turn. Sisters are humans, are part of the IoM and no witches ( and i doubt you want to try b... instead ). Their allegiance to the ecclesiarchy is known and it doesn't look like anyone has refrained from fighting alongside them just because they may work for some inquisitor sometimes. Go dig out something where imperial servants denied to serve with sisters.
Like I've mentioned in the past, if the Black Templars were written, very poorly, to be natural allies of the Sisters, that's all it was, poor writing. This new chart just means that somebody in the writing department of Games Workshop got smarter and realized "Just because they're both radical Christian crusader" themed, doesn't mean that they would be natural allies in the far more complex 40K universe. Because they aren't. At all.
I know you like your own 'voice'. To repeat the same does not make it the one and only correct interpretation. ( i should know, i am German. We're experts on being right... . )
The Templars are like many GW products, not a direct copy of an existant theme.
They got the looks from the medieval crusades of the east of europe and the theme of the fleet based crusading marine and in this the theme of still running the crusade "as the emperor intended". No religion involved ( except the name as GW can't come up with good names and already had "the great crusade" ) and most likely no natural ally but lots of fellow loyal servants of the Emperor who should be able to fight along like it was pre-HH even if the actors have changed.
Sadly back to towards your idea of smart people at GW's writing department.
Because they are not. Smart people would value consistency, smart people would realize how sucktastic the idea of the first level of alliance is when they have to point out how far the alliance goes ( ie only sisters share faith acts, everyone else keeps his benefits to himself ). Smart people would realize they should explain the "brotherhood" of vanilla SM and Tau.
Smart people wouldn't use a theme like end times at all and put the playground firmly into a setting and not start a 'cinematic' edition so the whining of the missing advancement of the timeline keeps going. Smart people would solve some of the issues with upscaling of the rules, not complicating with new names, more rules, more stuff to drag around ( BYB, codex,Faq ).
Until this is a trap and GW unleashes digitial "6th ed compliant" copies of its publications on us, that is..
Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
And the thing is, none of these reasons are a condemnation of the Sisters. If anything, it's really a criticism of the nature of the Space Marines.
Space Marines are very independent, highly self interested, and probably quite convinced they are the greatest thing ever. Their loyalties are Order-Imperium/Emprah (being the same thing). Sisters,on the other hand, are extremely devoted to the Imperium and the Emperor above all else. Their devotion is God-Imperium-Order. The Space Marines will defend the Imperium because that's who they are and what they do. However, ultimately, they have their own agendas. The Sisters only agenda is the Imperium. They don't have gene seed to worry about, or home worlds, or ancient quests/rivalries/vendettas, or other such. They get new Sisters from a school that constantly produces more.
These differences are probably what helps Sisters to be more resistant to Chaos than Marines. They are more or less singular of purpose. It is what gives them most of those attributes and personality traits you seem to like. The Space Marines are not singular of purpose, by any means. Their loyalty is going to be both to the Chapter, and to the Imperium, with the priority perhaps shifting between the two given the situation. Certainly the Dark Angels have been said to pack up their toys and leave if they get wind of Fallen.
This means Space Marines are not going to take flak from headstrong Sisters who want to play by the rules. They aren't going to be willing to subject themselves to review and tracking by the Imperium's other agencies. They aren't going to want to turn over valuable prisoners, intelligence, material, relics, etc which the Sisters are sure to demand, and certainly report if defied.
What do Space Marines get in return for subjecting themselves to this kind of disagreeable alliance? Carbon copies of themselves, except quite a bit less capable.
-The individual Sister is not comparable to a Marine. Their weaponry is less flexible and less capable (lack of medium to long range threat engagement for the most part).
-Less common mission profiles (Sisters, quite bafflingly, choose close range weaponry when they are most vulnerable at close range, lol. Classic GW style over substance, but hey, it's a game). Sisters can't deploy by drop pod, and seem to have limited airborne delivery options. They aren't as tough, so they aren't going to be good for the sorts of shock and assault profiles Space Marines would excel at.
The Space Marines use the Imperial Guard as an anvil, and sometimes even as the hammer too, while they go smash something the enemy doesn't realize is being attacked. The Imperial Guard typically has large numbers and a well balanced combined arms capability. These are the same reasons the Sisters would want to ally with the Guard too. They fill in the gaps they can't. Space Marines have fairly good combined arms capabilities, but lack the numbers that would be ideal in many scenarios in the 40K universe. Sisters have neither significant combined arms capability nor numbers.
It should be completely clear now why Sisters + Guard and Marines + Guard are believable "Brothers in Arms" while Sisters and Marines are not nearly as likely to get along.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
1hadhq wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Clear?
For multitudes of dakkanauts, yes. For you? I don't think so.
There are drugs for multiple personality disorder if you truly have so many.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:How so? Very little evidence to support this, and plenty of reasons against it.
Background = Evidence.
Last time one promised plenty of evidence in a background thread, i was dissapointed with silence. So lets see:
Did I promise evidence? learn to read. I said reasons. And I gave them. I said there is a lack of evidence to the contrary. That actually puts the burden of proof on you since I'm merely saying there's an inference in one direction and you're saying there is proof in the other. It's a difference between fact and opinion. My opinion has reasoning to support it. Your "facts" don't have any proof. What you actually have are opinions that have neither definitive proof nor solid reasoning.
Where did GW state any imperial faction treats sisters as cannonfodder?
It doesn't. And that's not what I said. Again, learning to read will help you.
Who is a preferrable ally: one who supports and respects you or the other who ignores you or tells you to sod off?
You make a valid point here. Nobody is really sure what it has to do with this thread though.
Oh really?
When there is no GW publication, create your own fluff .....
You love having these conversations in your own head, but nobody has any idea what you're talking about.
All imperial forces are allies all the time in general, until someone turns its back on the IoM.
This is where you just don't actually understand the fluff behind the Imperium. They absolutely are not all allies, and certainly not all the time, and most certainly who has turned their back on who is very rarely agreed upon.
Just saying.
We know. You say a lot of things, lol
Sorry, desperate allies leads to units doing nothing, so calling it broad isn't right.
You're quite confused as to what broad means, too. You've got a lot of problems. Possibly even almost one hundred. Hopefully at least a disagreeable female ain't one.
Their allegiance to the ecclesiarchy is known
Chortle.
and it doesn't look like anyone has refrained from fighting alongside them just because they may work for some inquisitor sometimes. Go dig out something where imperial servants denied to serve with sisters.
Go dig somewhere and find me where it says that the Black Templars are great allies with the Sisters all the time. You are terrible at argument construction. You refute my argument saying there is no proof of its existence while presenting your own argument that also has no proof of its existence.
I know you like your own 'voice'.
Boy is this the pot calling the kettle black.
I'll admit, I'm definitely guilty. Fortunately, I've been paid specifically to talk to, teach, and train people, so at least the source of my confidence, some might even say arrogance and be only slightly unjustified, is quite obvious and well founded. So far, I don't see any reason for your confidence.
Smart people would value consistency
Says no innovator, great thinker, or leader of men ever. Here's your problem. You lack vision.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/01 19:20:13
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Don't think for a second that even though the Army respects the AFCCs that they wouldn't get rid of them in a second if the Air Force would allow the Army to send more of its people to the schools.
Yet then they will not get rid of them now, because they are a matter of necessity.
I'm sure that if the Dark Angels had 10 million Marines they wouldn't want anyone to fight at their side either, not even other Marine Chapters. Since this is not the case, I do believe that there are a number of Marine Chapters who welcome the assistance of the Sisters of Battle, as this is what the available studio material made it sound like so far.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:This isn't about doctrine. It's about fundamental philosophical differences. Certain Spess Mahreens might not get along with other Spess Mahreens at any given time, but in the end, with a few exceptions, Spess Mahreens are still Spess Mahreens for the Emprah. Sisters are not for the Emprah. They are for some fictional God-Emperor and part of an organization that has spent the last ten thousand years perverting the Emperor's vision. Given how absurdly obsessive the Black Tempars are about Nikea, one can only imagine that the Ecclessiarchy probably also would bug the heck out of them, even more so than other Chapters.
Yet if you look at the Chapter's background, you will notice that they believe in "visions" sent by the Emperor, that their Chaplains preach a "faith". Indeed "prayer" and "worship" are words used in their very own Codex to describe their behavior, and the Black Templars had rescued holy Ministorum relics from destruction in the past to see them safely returned to the Ecclesiarchy. Even if the Templars do not call the Emperor a god, they most certainly treat him like one.
They are the one Marine Chapter I know that does this, so I'm surprised that it shouldn't count in their favour - or the other way around. You could very well argue that the Black Templars have, spiritually, more in common with the Sisters than the other Chapters they are supposedly "Brothers in Arms" with.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:This is a situation of "Two wrongs not making a right." I agree the Space Wolves and Sisters probably should also be Desperate Allies.
So you're basically argueing that the Sisters should be "Desperate Allies" with all Space Marine Chapters?
On the other hand, should the Black Templars be "Allies of Convenience" with the Dark Eldar if they get along so well with the Eldar and the Tau? They do seem to like them more than the Sisters, after all ...
Veteran Sergeant wrote:You see the Black Templars limited allies being people unwilling to ally with them, when, more likely given their disposition, it's the Black Templars being unwilling to work with others.
Actually, no, that's not at all what I see.
What I see is two organisations with a number of traits in common, and having a history of joint operations.
Opposed to a bunch of xenos that have nothing to do with the Black Templars at all, yet apparently allow for a tighter relationship on the battlefield.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:They're running a fleet and Chapter of absolutely heretical size, often pursuing their own agenda under the guise of a crusade they declared ten thousand years ago that seems to no longer have any coherent vision or mission, nor any centralized leadership.
That may give the High Lords of Terra some thought, but not the various commanders of the Sisterhood. When they do happen to meet each other and get along well, as they did in the past, then I don't see where the trouble should come from.
As long as the Black Templars are not excommunicated, that is.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:As far as to "why exactly" I think it was poor writing, if this isn't painfully clear from my very explicit detailing, it's never going to be, and it's a reading comprehension issue, not a presentation one, even if you decide to disagree out of personal preference.
Well, at least that was a politely packaged insult. I'll try to refrain from returning the favour concerning your interpretation of the studio material - which, as we've seen in the debate about the AoF, seems to dismiss a lot of stuff written in the Codices. I'm just going to assume you're applying the same personal preference here.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Imperial Guard represents a gigantic cross section of units and ideologies. It's not like they stamp these guys out of a cookie cutter. Ultramar's PDF would most certainly be Guard (equivalent) Brothers in Arms to a C:SM list painted as Ultramarines (or successors). Just as a regiment raised on a Shrine world might not care for Space Marines, but could find themselves in league with Sisters of Battle, no sweat. If there was ever a "catchall" Imperium faction that can be just about anything you want (within reason), it's the Guard. Heck, that's easily evidenced by the fact that there are no fewer than ten "modern" Imperial Guard model ranges, all with "unique" back stories. Cadian, Catachan, Mordian, Tallarn, Valhallan, Praetorian, Steel Legion, Vostroyan, Elysian, and Krieg, with two smaller supplemental ranges in the Tanith and Attilans.
I'm going to paraphrase your own post: "You see the Space Marines unlimited allies in the IG being people willing to ally with them, when, more likely given their disposition, it's some Space Marines being unwilling to work with others." There's quite a number of Chapters that don't get along well with the "puny humans" in the Guard.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The individual Sister is not comparable to a Marine. Their weaponry is less flexible and less capable (lack of medium to long range threat engagement for the most part).
This is highly circumstancial. A bolter is a bolter, and when the Sisters have purged Marine Chapters in the past then it shows what they can do. Obviously, some Chapters will not hold an objective view regarding the capabilities as GW has described them*, but all? I doubt this, especially given that the Imperial Guard is much less capable, and for some reason all Chapters are "Brothers at Arms" with it.
*: "As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion."
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Sisters can't deploy by drop pod, and seem to have limited airborne delivery options.
This is not correct. The Major Orders have access to Dominica-pattern Drop Pods and their Seraphim deploy from airborne transports.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Space Marines use the Imperial Guard as an anvil, and sometimes even as the hammer too, while they go smash something the enemy doesn't realize is being attacked. The Imperial Guard typically has large numbers and a well balanced combined arms capability.
You complain about the Sisters' "less common mission profiles" but then go on to praise the Guard as a perfect ally? The Imperial Guard? The lumbering behemoth that takes months just to mobilize?
Marines: Elite shock troops specialized on short duration high profile missions
Sisters: Elite shock troops specialized on short duration high profile missions
Guard: Vast numbers of line infantry and/or armoured columns suitable chiefly for prolonged campaigns usually involving trenches and slow-moving front lines
I think I know whose missions profiles are going to look more compatible.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Sisters have neither significant combined arms capability nor numbers.
The fluff clearly says otherwise, for they have performed well operating side by side in the past. And what do you mean with "not enough numbers"? There's less Sisters than Marines, but obviously neither the Adepta Sororitas nor the Adeptus Astartes are all going to deploy at once, amassing a hundred thousand Sisters and a million Marines in one place.
Any of the six Major Orders has more Sisters than a single Marine Chapter, even if said Chapter would field its full strength in a singular battle. Which they rarely do.
If the Sisters are capable of purging a Marine Chapter, they obviously do have some potential in fighting with them as well. I'd be hard pressed to imagine a reason why the Sisters would have earned the respect of the Space Marines otherwise, too. Your theory makes absolutely no sense.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Don't think for a second that even though the Army respects the AFCCs that they wouldn't get rid of them in a second if the Air Force would allow the Army to send more of its people to the schools.
Yet then they will not get rid of them now, because they are a matter of necessity.
Sisters aren't a matter of necessity, lol.
I'm sure that if the Dark Angels had 10 million Marines they wouldn't want anyone to fight at their side either, not even other Marine Chapters. Since this is not the case, I do believe that there are a number of Marine Chapters who welcome the assistance of the Sisters of Battle, as this is what the available studio material made it sound like so far.
But in a galaxy full of allies, they are going to choose everyone else first it seems.
Yet if you look at the Chapter's background, you will notice that they believe in "visions" sent by the Emperor, that their Chaplains preach a "faith". Indeed "prayer" and "worship" are words used in their very own Codex to describe their behavior, and the Black Templars had rescued holy Ministorum relics from destruction in the past to see them safely returned to the Ecclesiarchy. Even if the Templars do not call the Emperor a god, they most certainly treat him like one.
Muslim Imams and Jewish Rabbis both preach a faith too. Seems they and their followers have problems getting along from time to time.
Space Marines issue prayers to their bolters. Guardsmen recite litanies to their cannons (heh, hell yeah they do). Superstitious practices akin to real world religious practices are a part of the entire canon of the Imperium. Certainly not a good source of evidence.
"Like a god", and "as a god" are definitively different ideas. Some people revere sports figures like gods too. I don't think anybody actually worships them as supernatural beings.
They are the one Marine Chapter I know that does this, so I'm surprised that it shouldn't count in their favour - or the other way around. You could very well argue that the Black Templars have, spiritually, more in common with the Sisters than the other Chapters they are supposedly "Brothers in Arms" with.
Again, they have as much in common as the Jews and Muslims. Hey, they even have as much in common with the Christian Crusaders and the Muslims. And we saw how well that turned out.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:This is a situation of "Two wrongs not making a right." I agree the Space Wolves and Sisters probably should also be Desperate Allies.
So you're basically argueing that the Sisters should be "Desperate Allies" with all Space Marine Chapters?
On the other hand, should the Black Templars be "Allies of Convenience" with the Dark Eldar if they get along so well with the Eldar and the Tau? They do seem to like them more than the Sisters, after all ...
I can see how you might come to those conclusions if you didn't read a single thing I wrote. /shrug
Veteran Sergeant wrote:You see the Black Templars limited allies being people unwilling to ally with them, when, more likely given their disposition, it's the Black Templars being unwilling to work with others.
Actually, no, that's not at all what I see.
What I see is two organisations with a number of traits in common, and having a history of joint operations.
Opposed to a bunch of xenos that have nothing to do with the Black Templars at all, yet apparently allow for a tighter relationship on the battlefield.
You're willfully ignoring the other posts where I explained that just because they are in the same game rules' broadest categorical grouping doesn't mean that their reasons for being in that category are the same. This sort of disingenuous arguing isn't very dignified.
The Necrons and Blood Angels have a "history of joint operations" too. Space Marines and Chaos Marines "have a number of traits in common". Like I said, less than a handful of individual examples from ten thousand years of game history... probably not what you can consider definitive. Find me a place where it says something to the effect of "Sisters and Black Templars is best of friends!". Otherwise we're both presenting opinions, and the effectiveness of the argument lies in how well you can reason it. Examples aren't reasons. You need to explain why the example is a reason. Demonstrate understanding, and then connect the two ideas in a manner that stands up to scrutiny outside of the example being a reason in and of itself.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:They're running a fleet and Chapter of absolutely heretical size, often pursuing their own agenda under the guise of a crusade they declared ten thousand years ago that seems to no longer have any coherent vision or mission, nor any centralized leadership.
That may give the High Lords of Terra some thought, but not the various commanders of the Sisterhood. When they do happen to meet each other and get along well, as they did in the past, then I don't see where the trouble should come from.
As long as the Black Templars are not excommunicated, that is.
You're either ignoring, or missing, the part where the Sisters are infinitely likely to point out heresy. It's sort of what they do.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:As far as to "why exactly" I think it was poor writing, if this isn't painfully clear from my very explicit detailing, it's never going to be, and it's a reading comprehension issue, not a presentation one, even if you decide to disagree out of personal preference.
Well, at least that was a politely packaged insult. I'll try to refrain from returning the favour concerning your interpretation of the studio material - which, as we've seen in the debate about the AoF, seems to dismiss a lot of stuff written in the Codices. I'm just going to assume you're applying the same personal preference here.
It's not an insult. It's observation of fact. You either don't get it, or you're willfully ignoring it. I mean, you asked me to repeat something I've said over and over and over. I mean, I get you don't like my opinion. But I know that you (should) know what it is. Acting like you don't understand it can only make me think you're trying to be obnoxious, or an idiot. I was at least giving you the benefit of the doubt of assuming you're just trying to be obnoxious. That's not an insult. Asking me to repeat stuff over and over is trying to be obnoxious. Fortunately, I'll just point out the disingenuous behavior and carry on.
There's quite a number of Chapters that don't get along well with the "puny humans" in the Guard.
Don't really agree with this. Not truly respect? Perhaps. But even if we assume a small percentage of Chapters for whatever reason can't work well with others isn't relevant to this discussion at all.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The individual Sister is not comparable to a Marine. Their weaponry is less flexible and less capable (lack of medium to long range threat engagement for the most part).
This is highly circumstancial. A bolter is a bolter, and when the Sisters have purged Marine Chapters in the past then it shows what they can do. Obviously, some Chapters will not hold an objective view regarding the capabilities as GW has described them*, but all? I doubt this, especially given that the Imperial Guard is much less capable, and for some reason all Chapters are "Brothers at Arms" with it.
Do you understand what circumstantial means?
We've gone over this before (reminded of something about trying to be obnoxious above, lol). The Sisters lack heavy, long ranged firepower. No las cannons. No missile launchers. Only a single long ranged threat tank, but it is anti-infantry artillery, not really anti-vehicle capable. A bolter is a bolter, sure, according to the generic stat lines of 40K tabletop. Heck, let's even just assume they are equal, period. That's not the only weapon on the battlefield.
As far as the story of the Space Marine Chapter they purged, well, let's just say that story requires a lot of suspension of disbelief that a Space Marine chapter would be that stupid, haha. But hey. Every organization has its 1%.
*: "As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion."
Sure. Equal except for all the ways they are completely inferior. You know, equal WS, equal T, equal weapons, equal vehicles...
Oh wait. So not equal at all, but instead that's just a bit of faction-biased fluff? That never happens, lol.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Space Marines use the Imperial Guard as an anvil, and sometimes even as the hammer too, while they go smash something the enemy doesn't realize is being attacked. The Imperial Guard typically has large numbers and a well balanced combined arms capability.
You complain about the Sisters' "less common mission profiles" but then go on to praise the Guard as a perfect ally? The Imperial Guard? The lumbering behemoth that takes months just to mobilize?
You don't get strategy and logistics. That's fair. I'm the combat trained US infantry Marine with a decade of military experience, not you. It would be pretty crazy if we were on the same level here. Nobody is a perfect ally. But the Imperial Guard offsets a lot of the potential deficiencies a Marine Chapter might face. The Sisters do not.
Marines: Elite shock troops specialized on short duration high profile missions
Sisters: Elite shock troops specialized on short duration high profile missions
Guard: Vast numbers of line infantry and/or armoured columns suitable chiefly for prolonged campaigns usually involving trenches and slow-moving front lines
You don't need allies who can do the same things you can do. You just do those things. The Marines use the Navy because they don't have any ships. The Army uses the Air Force because they don't have any planes. The Air Force uses the Army because they have no idea which container has their rifles in them. The Army rarely uses the Marines, or vice versa.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Sisters have neither significant combined arms capability nor numbers.
The fluff clearly says otherwise, for they have performed well operating side by side in the past.
Please look up "combined arms". It is important to your ability to understand and participate in this discussion in a useful manner.
And what do you mean with "not enough numbers"? There's less Sisters than Marines, but obviously neither the Adepta Sororitas nor the Adeptus Astartes are all going to deploy at once, amassing a hundred thousand Sisters and a million Marines in one place.
Exactly. The Marines don't need a few hundred more power armored shock troops most of the time. In cases where they do, usually it's going to be some place that more than one Chapter shows up at. They probably need to throw ten thousand warm bodies and some artillery at a defended fortification on a regular basis. Again though, we're back to where you don't get the fundamental reasons why you'd ally.
Your theory makes absolutely no sense.
I do believe that it makes absolutely no sense to you.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/01 20:46:43
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Fortunately, I've been paid specifically to talk to, teach, and train people, so at least the source of my confidence, some might even say arrogance and be only slightly unjustified, is quite obvious and well founded.
If those little niceties beneath is all they expect when "they" ( whoever that shall be ) pay for, i think you're easy to afford.
- There are drugs for multiple personality disorder if you truly have so many.
- Again, learning to read will help you.
- You love having these conversations in your own head, but nobody has any idea what you're talking about.
- You've got a lot of problems. Possibly even almost one hundred. Hopefully at least a disagreeable female ain't one.
Seems pretty low standard. So who are your subjects? The cannonfodder?
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Did I promise evidence? learn to read.
So nothing to back your reasons up.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I said reasons. And I gave them. I said there is a lack of evidence to the contrary. That actually puts the burden of proof on you since I'm merely saying there's an inference in one direction and you're saying there is proof in the other. It's a difference between fact and opinion. My opinion has reasoning to support it. Your "facts" don't have any proof. What you actually have are opinions that have neither definitive proof nor solid reasoning.
No burden on me as you have actually ignored any provided evidence in more than one thread.
To ignore the facts doesn't make your reasoning believable.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
This is where you just don't actually understand the fluff behind the Imperium. They absolutely are not all allies, and certainly not all the time, and most certainly who has turned their back on who is very rarely agreed upon.
I don't? You seem confused. There is no absolute, beyond the absolute of the Emperor as the undisputed ruler of them all.
Can't pledge for the Emperor without having the others as your "allies".
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Says no innovator, great thinker, or leader of men ever. Here's your problem. You lack vision.
People with visions should visit a doc.
Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
The present Allies rules seem to be very odd at capturing the correct fluff in these matters and in the case of the SOB is just plain wrong. This is a shame as allied contingents would be the prefect way to represent the SOB in war as they are nromally only present in very small numbers.
What part seems wrong to you?
I think they got the Sisters pretty much right. Don't play well with others except for Guardsmen who represent a huge cross section of Imperial forces. The 3rd Edition Codex: Witch Hunters was always an afterthought codex designed to sell some new Inquisition models, and, oh, see if the Sisters will sell if we give them some new models. A permanent teaming of the Ecclessiarchy and the Inquisition was never very fluffy.
Its clear from the established fluff that the SOB would likely be "brothers" in battle with Imperial Guard, Codex Marines and the Black Templars and def not the Space Wolves, that they are as likely to ally with the Eldar and Dark Eldar as the Black Templars in nonsense............ They have fought alongside the first three - they have fought against the others - I am hoping its an error............
Clear?
How so? Very little evidence to support this, and plenty of reasons against it. I don't see any reason for Space Marines to want Sisters of Battle around unless to use them as cannon fodder. A mission they aren't very good at due to their limited numbers. The Black Templars may have fought alongside them in the past, but I don't think that makes them likely allies. It is the difference of two conversations:
"You hate witches? We hate witches. There's a witch over there. We should kill her!"
and
"You hate witches? We hate witches too! We should totally hang out. Just so long as you promise not to tell anybody about our illegal army, illegal fleet. Oh, and realizethat we think your religion is utter bullcrap, we're probably not going to really treat you like allies, and pursue our own agenda instead. Oh, and all the while, feel free to report our movements to the Inquisition, the Ecclessiarchy and High Lords, that's cool"
You guys get confused by the 4 tier Ally system. The first two are like this:
"Totally allies all the time"
"Well, we've got a common mission, and we could use your help"
The third level, desperate allies, covers a lot of ground. You're looking at it entirely wrong. It isn't that the Templars are just as likely to ally with Eldar or Dark Eldar, or even Necrons. It's that they are less likely to ally with Sisters than they are the Inquisition. "Desperate Allies" is a broad category, simply because the only category after it is "No Allying At All". It seems like some of you would just feel better if there was a 5 tier system, and one called "Allies only for a Really Good Reason" so that there's a difference between Space Marines simply disliking Sisters and them really, really disliking Necrons.
Like I've mentioned in the past, if the Black Templars were written, very poorly, to be natural allies of the Sisters, that's all it was, poor writing. This new chart just means that somebody in the writing department of Games Workshop got smarter and realized "Just because they're both radical Christian crusader" themed, doesn't mean that they would be natural allies in the far more complex 40K universe. Because they aren't. At all.
not confused just in disagreement wiht both your conclusions and the chart.
Please explain why the Black templars are less heretical than werewolf mutant Space Wolves who disdain the whole SM Codex or the Vampiric Blood Angels - or the Dark Angels etc etc.
The Black Templars are not treated with suspicion by the majoirty of the Imperium at all - some few members of the Inquisiton have some limited concerns about the size of the Chapter but their own Codex makes it clear that their exemplory service makes them almost beyond reproach - unlike the known deviance of some of the fore mentioned Chapters. None have even challenged the Chapter about this - again unlike the Wolves and others. The Sisterhood encountering them would be highly unlikely to know about this possible issue which even the Inqusiiton don't consider a major issue.
The Black Templars worship the Emperor - in the same way as the Sisters - much moe than many Chapters - especially the Wolves - any evevidence to show that they do otherwise - the Codex and BL material has them perhaps the most like the Sisterhood - unless there is any other material that you can point to that contradicts this? To continue your anology the Templars are Crusading Knights and the Sisterhood are nuns - both being of the Catholic Church not members of different religions
My conclusion is that the Black Templars should be at least the same level of allies as the other Codex Marines and the Wolves as Desperate Allies - same as with Eldar and Dark Eldar.
The suggested Necron/Blood Angel history of joint operations" is highly misleading - they just stop fighting whilst they engaged the Tryanids - the Black Tmeplars and Sisterhood, led by an Inqusitior worked together to cleanse Daemons and then left together in the BT thunderhawks - one of a number of times they worked together in the Emperors name, with the same goals. Totally different as I think you well know.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Fortunately, I've been paid specifically to talk to, teach, and train people, so at least the source of my confidence, some might even say arrogance and be only slightly unjustified, is quite obvious and well founded.
If those little niceties beneath is all they expect when "they" ( whoever that shall be ) pay for, i think you're easy to afford.
- There are drugs for multiple personality disorder if you truly have so many.
- Again, learning to read will help you.
- You love having these conversations in your own head, but nobody has any idea what you're talking about.
- You've got a lot of problems. Possibly even almost one hundred. Hopefully at least a disagreeable female ain't one.
Seems pretty low standard. So who are your subjects? The cannonfodder?
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Did I promise evidence? learn to read.
So nothing to back your reasons up.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I said reasons. And I gave them. I said there is a lack of evidence to the contrary. That actually puts the burden of proof on you since I'm merely saying there's an inference in one direction and you're saying there is proof in the other. It's a difference between fact and opinion. My opinion has reasoning to support it. Your "facts" don't have any proof. What you actually have are opinions that have neither definitive proof nor solid reasoning.
No burden on me as you have actually ignored any provided evidence in more than one thread.
To ignore the facts doesn't make your reasoning believable.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
This is where you just don't actually understand the fluff behind the Imperium. They absolutely are not all allies, and certainly not all the time, and most certainly who has turned their back on who is very rarely agreed upon.
I don't? You seem confused. There is no absolute, beyond the absolute of the Emperor as the undisputed ruler of them all.
Can't pledge for the Emperor without having the others as your "allies".
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Says no innovator, great thinker, or leader of men ever. Here's your problem. You lack vision.
People with visions should visit a doc.
So, the spoiler is that you've got nothing, huh? Fair enough. If my argument was that weak and full of excuses, I'd hide it too, lol.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Veteran Sergeant wrote:If my argument was that weak and full of excuses, I'd hide it too, lol.
Unfortunately, you don't. But obviously this is in the eye of the beholder.
I think it would be best if we'd all just part ways and acknowledge that some people just hold a very different interpretation of the fluff, be it formed from what they've read or what they like to believe they've read.
Again, you can disagree with my opinion, but if you say my argument isn't full of legitimate reasoning, perhaps I was wrong about thinking you were just being obnoxious.
You made the right choice in bowing out before, considering there was just recovery from my last post to you. I've tried to be nice, but you've lost. Be grateful though. I gave you pointers on your deficiencies. This gives you a starting point from where to better equip yourself in the future. I mean, not everyone knows what combined arms is. Now you have an opportunity to learn and come back better! The American settlers ultimately gave the natives casinos as a consolation prize for losing the continent. Bows and arrows were as effective against guns and biological warfare as strong beliefs against knowledge and experience it seems. Sadly, I don't have any land to give you. But you still get something valuable: knowledge. Learning, sharing and caring. They are the cornerstones of my Net philosophy.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
I've "lost" nothing, and you haven't "won" anything. The simple truth is there is just no argueing with you. Anyone opposing your position is automatically unable to read, lacks some sort of experience and fails to properly understand the background material. We get it, you've made it abundantly clear by now that you are the master of all fluff.
The only thing you have demonstrated here and in a couple other threads is your own arrogance, both in dealing with others as well as concerning your own supposed experience, nevermind that you've continually failed to read up on the fluff and simply seemed to ignore "unfavorable" quotes like in the AoF discussion. And as if this wasn't enough, you attempted to gloss over your obvious lack of fluff evidence with supposed real life experience, never mind that (a) just because other Dakkanauts - yes, like me - do not tend to announce it in some desperate claim to seem more credible may not have been in the military as well, and that (b) warfare in the 41st millennium does not quite conform to contemporary military standards. Never mind that being an NCO does not make you an automatic expert on army strategies; this is what (staff) officers get trained for. Would I follow your "example" in polemics I would probably advise you to look up the difference between tactics and strategy at this point.
No, I'm quite simply finished discussing with you. I will not respond to you any further on this thread, but I thought you needed to know that I will not stand you claiming to have passed on any "knowledge" to me. The only thing you may have passed on to me is embarassment, because you've managed to get me entangled in a fruitless debate with several low blows that did not have to be dealt. Your "Net philosophy" seems to be built on something else entirely than knowledge.
From what it appears to be, the actual SoB players - those who know how their army's fluff looks like - seem to be in agreement. Make of that what you will - like you always do.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/02 00:07:18
You're still confused. I accuse you of not reading because you make interpretations that suggest you haven't. I said you lack experience because you argued I was wrong about combined arms and then showed you had no idea what it means.
I'm not the master of fluff. But I'm way better at it than you it seems. That's nt surprising. Not everyone is so gifted. But the difference is, I don't argue topics I don't understand. I might not always be right. But I rarely miss the target itself. If you come to argue, you'll get every bit of credit you earn. I always acknowledge when you say something legit. See when you suggest I don't know the difference between strategy and tactics, it just looks pathetic and desperate. I didn't disparage you for not knowing combined arms. Petty, teary eyed, snuffling insults are hardly something I can take seriously. Carry yourself with some dignity and I'll at least respect you even if we disagree. This sort of childish lashing out is, well, again, undignified.
You and the other obstinate Sisters players are entitled to your views of the fluff you seem to think you "know". Sadly, this. Topic requires understanding of both the Black Templars and the Sisters, and even if you were as good at the Sisters as you hope to be, you're still halfway short. But don't worry, I feel good about helping you, even if you refuse to acknowledge the help. I'm a philanthropist like that. No thanks or reward is necessary.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've finally gotten ahold of my copy of the most recent Black Templar codex.
Only religious references are to chaplains (which every chapter has and no suggestion they teach anything different than what other chaplains do, especially not of the Emperor's divinity), relics (ditto), chapels (ditto), Crusades (just an extension of the Great Crusade, in fact specifically "true to the Emperor's vision of the great crusade" p14), faith (not specifically in some sort of divinity), visions (not explained. Blood Angels have visions too, and they are psychic and gene seed related). So again, no proof that the Black Templars are anything other than Xtreme Space Marines! The Templars schtick is a tnematic historical reference, not a declaration of piety to the Imperial Cult. They don't ally with Sisters in their story, they ally with the Inquisitor. It never gives any indication one way or the other if they like the Sisters or not. But when the Inquisitor gets possessed, they become allies out of necessity. Desperation one might say. The story of Grimaldus protecting the holy relics of the temple? (Deliberately) Misrepresented. Grimaldus went there because it was one of the last bastions of defense. He didn't go there to save the relics, nor did he defend the temple because it had relics in it. He saved the relics because they were there and the Orks were there and defeating them was his mission.
Most telling line? Page 9: "Like all Space Marines, they do not consider themselves subject to Imperial Rule,". I mean, we'll ignore the poor word choice of "all" but hey, GW isn't infallible. The moral of the story is, the Black Templars are just like other Chapters and no more likely to join up with any other faction from the Imperium.
It becomes obvious that while the word crusade comes from French for "taking up the cross", the term crusade simply means an ideologically motivated campaign. The ideology in this case, made very clear in their Codex:
"The galaxy is the Emperor's, and anyone who challenges that claim is an enemy who must be destroyed". - Helbrect. (P.44).
Sounds pretty basic to me. In fact, it sounds exactly like something a character from the Horus Heresy novels would say.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/02 01:47:53
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
CSM 
/ SOB 
right. It is up to you as the individual player to craft your personal vision from your preferred combination of the various sources as well as, optionally, any ideas you might have yourself.
) leading the Order of the Argent Shroud in a quick campaign against various outposts of the Angels Vermillion. Usually, however, it is a high-ranking cleric of the Ministorum who will order a force of Sororitas sent against a Chapter. An example of this would be a recent campaign against the Space Wolves in retaliation for the murder of a priestly delegation dispatched to Fenris. In addition to this, the Sisters of Battle are also many a Inquisitor's preferred choice for purging rogue Marine Chapters, for they are the only Imperial force outside the Space Marines themselves that has any chance of success without having to rely on a protracted war of attrition. The six Major Orders keep specialized equipment, including Dominica-pattern Drop Pods, for just this very purpose of a quick pre-emptive strike against the stronghold of a Chapter condemned for either its mutations, heretical practices or actions (or lack thereof). An example of this would be an (unsuccessful) attack on the Sons of Malice led by some Inquisitor Pietas. Though the assault failed and the Space Marines managed to flee into the Eye of Terror, their former homeworld was eventually cleansed by the Imperial Guard. Another Chapter the Sisters seem to have a problem with would be the Flesh Tearers, with whom the Order of the Argent Shroud cooperated during the Third War for Armageddon. Canoness Carmina's report on them can be found 
This torch will forever burn bright with my zealousy, thanks for the warm welcome! 
. )
Here's your problem. You lack vision.
So who are your subjects? The cannonfodder?
