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Looking at the Allies matrix vs the fluff given in the actual rulebook, they have very little to actually do with another. SM's are closer to the Tau than with SoB, and yet there's fluff passages about multiple Marine-Tau wars and another where the Marines fight alongside the SoB in a heroic fashion. The fluff/relationship the various races have has changed very little since 5th.

Really the Matrix shouldn't be looked at as canon. There's no fluff to support what is displayed a lot of the time (and often fluff contradictions) and it's in the rules section. Very little thought went into its development.

And the above posts or less cover what SoB does. They're part of the more conservative bloc of the Imperium. The Ecclesiarchy, Administratum, Ordo Hereticus, Black Templars & "Space Marine chapters with close ties to the Munitorum", and Officio Assassinorum seem to be often affiliated with "bad guys" in inter-Imperial politics and are often depicted as reactionary. Meanwhile the Astartes (Space Wolves in particular), Ordo Malleus/Xenos, Adeptus Mechanicus come off as more liberal, progressive, and flexible. Though of course there are contradictions to both these generalizations. It's then little surprise that these sides butt heads often.

As for where they fall into with the Guard, Guardsmen will look at both Sisters and Marines as heroes. Really the Guard is split down the middle and has no political leanings beyond basic tenets all factions share (Emperor rox, Xenos sux, kill Chaos, etc.), but probably is closer to the Administratum due to the Departmento Munitorum's Commissariat.

In the Imperium, "liberal and flexible" makes you one of the bad guys. The Sisterhood is neither.

@ Veteran Sergeant

I will look through the Codex again when I get the chance - bit busy at present

Do you consider the BL novels canon (some do some don't)?

If so, the excellent Helsreach makes it very clear that the Black Templars do worship the Emperor - in fact the central character even threatens a Titan commander when she speaks of the Emperor as "your God" ratehr than the God of all subjects of the Imperium.

Are sisters ever tasked with back up other armies? Such as ultramarines backing up imperial guard or imperial guard dropping in to back up the marines.

Or are they mostly separate from the going ons of other parts of the imperium?

Mostly separate. They tend to show up mostly in places where their/the Ecclesiarchy's sites are threatened, or are otherwise close enough to respond. Otherwise, they're pretty much leading the charge in Wars of Faith or in purging the Xeno and the Heretic from places of the Ecclesiarch's interests.

This isn't to say that they won't go and assist other Imperial factions, but they are not part of the Munitorum or the Imperial Navy, and so cannot be ordered about by them in the same way the IG or the various Battlefleets are, and they do not serve the Adeptus Astartes, and so are not subject to their orders, either.

Mostly separate as they tend to the interests of the ecclesiarchy ( and temporarily to the ordo hereticus ).
Sisters got a lot of "defensive work" too. So backing up someone could mean to relief other forces of duties they are better at.
Like keeping the common defenders spirits up with their presence. Acting as a focus point of morale when the fight isn't going well.
They got a great propaganda potential and usually won't be corrupted by locals and strenghten the hold of the Imperium on its realms without even participating in the endless wars at a frontline.
The SoB also "backed up" the IG at Armageddon since they are a possible contribution of the ecclesiarchy to the wars beyond some priests and prayers..
It will depend on the scale of a campaign. At a certain size everyone available will take part and the SoB are not likely to sit at the sidelines and watch the rest having all the fun.

DeathRex wrote:Are sisters ever tasked with back up other armies? Such as ultramarines backing up imperial guard or imperial guard dropping in to back up the marines.
Or are they mostly separate from the going ons of other parts of the imperium?

The Sororitas act independently from both the Adeptus Astartes as well as the Adeptus Terra (and with that the Imperial Guard), which means that they are nominally independent. However, just like the Space Marines, they may respond to distress calls based on the individual Order's leader, and in addition can be sent by influential Ecclesiarchy officials, which would usually happen when some sacred relic, a holy site or an important clergyman is threatened.

There are a number of occasions in the fluff where this led to lending assistance to other Imperial armies.

In 980.M41, the Order of the Ebon Chalice reinforces the Space Marines of the Salamanders Chapter on the world of Heletine against the invading Daemon Prince Gralastyx and his minions, including Black Legion CSMs. (source: 5E C:SoB)

In 991.M41, the Order of Our Martyred Lady reinforces the Imperial Guard on Okassis against an encroaching Tyranid hive fleet, in an attempt to buy time for the evacuation of local civilians and clergy members. (source: 2E & 5E C:SoB)

In 999.M41, the Order of Our Martyred Lady and the Order of the Argent Shroud place the equivalent of 10 companies of Battle Sisters at the disposal of General Kurov of the joint command council on the waaagh-threatened hive world Armageddon, leading to the Sisters fighting alongside local militias, Guardsmen and Space Marines alike. (source: WD251)

In 999.M41, the Orders of the Bloody Rose, the Ebon Chalice and the Martyred Lady join the Imperial forces in defence against Abbadon's 13th Black Crusade. Of these, the Bloody Rose is the most prominent, sending the most troops and preparing for an extended stay in the Cadian sector, determined to repulse any invaders. (source: WD281)

That's the ones I can name off the top of my head. I think there are more, but I'd have to look it up in the books again.

Here are a few interesting bits from the old Armageddon 3 campaign website, archived in the waybackmachine:
http://web.archive.org/web/20070202084051/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/shroud.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20070202113012/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/lady.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20061217154926/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/ftearers.html

Interesting sidenote - proof that the Exorcists Chapter was created by the Inquisition:
http://web.archive.org/web/20061215010333/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/exorcists.html

Harriticus wrote:but probably is closer to the Administratum due to the Departmento Munitorum's Commissariat.

technically, they're a part of the Munitorum, or at least integrated to tightly as to be indistinguishable. Without the munitorum, guard regiments do not receive orders, they do not receive munitions, they do not get transport arranged, they don't get reinforcements, they don't raise new regiments, don't build new tanks, etc. The IG's Lord Commander Militant is also head of the Munitorum.



Another thing to keep in mind regarding Sisters and their potential place next to the Astartes/Imperial Guard and whatnot is that the Astartes number less than a million, most wars never see a single Astartes boot, while the Imperial Guard numbers literally billions of regiments putting their numbers into the trillions and meaning that for every single Astartes, there are tens of millions of guardsmen. the sisters are more numerous than the Space Marines, but still infintesimally small next to the Imperial guard.

Vaktathi wrote:the sisters are more numerous than the Space Marines

I don't think this is true - at least as per the studio fluff. We've got numbers on how slowly the Sisterhood has grown over the millennia, and looking at the Force Disposition Charts of Imperial troops at Armageddon or the Cadian Gate, I see a lot more Space Marines than Battle Sisters:
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/7706/armageddonn.jpg
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/2889/13crusade.jpg

The six Major Orders have a grand total of up to ~40.000 Sisters - if they are all at full strength, which is rarely the case. The only unknown element on the Orders Militant total size is the number of Minor Orders, but these rarely show up in the fluff - leading me to the theory that the small but widely scattered Minor Orders take the brunt of "daily duties" (guarding holy sites, playing bodyguard, doing purity control sweeps, etc) the Sisterhood has been tasked with, whereas the six larger Major Orders have the necessary size and the equipment to engage in larger campaigns and battles, so with few exceptions we only get to hear about the latter.

There is quite a number of Ecclesiarchy sites that do not have a Sororitas presence at all, its only defenders being the local clergy and any militia or seconded PDF. The Subsector Cathedral on Bladen, for example, a holy site where the Emperor Himself was said to have walked (back when that place was a field hospital during the Great Crusade), was defended solely by the Bishop, his Confessors and a couple units of Cadian Shock Troops when the CSMs rolled in - no Battle Sisters anywhere (source: Codex Cityfight).

[edit] I think the impression that there must be millions of Sisters largely comes from various novels and other outsourced material where they seem to have convents on just about every world in the Imperium - at least that's what I noticed as I was reading.

It states the sisters are present on most imperial worlds which I believe would put their numbers is the billions even if only 100 were on each planet, and they are supposed to practically make a majority of the population on many Shireworld, particularly Ophelia VII which could put their number in the billions, which is where I think the idea of their vast numbers comes from. I'd suggest part of the discrepancy about the number of Sisters is that there are many Soroitas order which are not combat oriented but act to support the Adepta Sororitas aka Battle Sisters. The Orders Hospitallers represent a single model only available in a command squad, however their are more then five whole orders of Hospitallers, to say nothing of the Orders Orders Dialogous, Orders Pronatus and the many, many many Orders Famulous who's numbers were left very vague. I could be wrong but I vaguely recall the numbers of the Sororitas and potential battle sisters being huge, but the amount of power armor and relics available small limiting the military orders ability to expand their number of active troops. Thusly, in my mind, you could have the Sororitas be even multi-trillions strong, larger even than the imperial guard for the sake of arguement, and still have a relatively small number of actual Battle Sisters.

Hrm.. interesting color scheme chart, I like it

On the flip side I actually like the Dawn of War video game for messing with my army (armies) paint schemes too to figure out what I like. I'ts like a fancy way to have a virtual "army painter" to test ideas and what not. The game is cheap now and is better than most things at figuring out exactly the paint job I'll finalize

Kris Knives wrote:It states the sisters are present on most imperial worlds [...]

It states that Battle Sisters will be present at "many" Ecclesiarchal cathedrals, which exist on every "major" Imperial world. In other words, not every Imperial world is important enough to have a cathedral, and not every cathedral will be protected by SoB.

My own estimation of their numbers is at about 100k, with roughly 1/3 made up by the Sisters of the Major Orders.

Fluff I'm going by to come to this conclusion:
- The Sororitas took 2.500 years to expand their ranks from 10.000 to 30.000 Sisters (M36-M39)
- The six Major Orders have, on average, about 3k-4k Sisters each, but may number up to 6k-7k at peak times
- The Minor Orders Militant pushing the overall number above the Major Orders' "hard cap" of 6x7k are a fairly "recent" development (younger than the foundings of the last Major Orders in M39)
- The exact number of the Minor Orders, which are all smaller than the Major Orders, is unknown - but the word used to describe it was "many" (as opposed to, say, "countless")
- Last but not least, a whopping 3 Major and 2 Minor Orders listed in the defense against the 13th Black Crusade, compared to dozens of Marine Chapters. And at least the Major Orders all came from elsewhere, namely Terra and Ophelia VII. It is possible that one or both of the Minor Orders were "locals" of the Cadian sector, though.

Kris Knives wrote:and they are supposed to practically make a majority of the population on many Shireworld

Where did you read that?

Kris Knives wrote:particularly Ophelia VII which could put their number in the billions

The Convent Sanctorum has facilities to accomodate 15.000 Sisters. Not more.
Additionally, the very existence of the Minor Orders had been explained by them having been split from the parent Major Order due to spacial distance. It wouldn't make sense for a Minor Order to exist right next to a Major one as they'd have no reason to split up. And each of the Major Orders only has a couple thousand Battle Sisters.

Kris Knives wrote:I'd suggest part of the discrepancy about the number of Sisters is that there are many Soroitas order which are not combat oriented but act to support the Adepta Sororitas aka Battle Sisters.

This might be true. We have absolutely no numbers whatsoever regarding the Non-militant Orders.
The 3E Codex did state, however, that the overall number of Sisters within the Orders Militant is greater than the overall number of Sisters within the non-militant Orders. The latter are usually much smaller, though, enabling them to "cover more ground" either way. You only need a single Sister Famulous per "targeted" noble House, only a single Sister Dialogous per Imperial battlegroup, etc. The Sisters Hospitaller alone are likely to show up in any sizable numbers, but even their field hospitals are unlikely to be larger than the Minor Orders Militant.

sudojoe wrote:On the flip side I actually like the Dawn of War video game for messing with my army (armies) paint schemes too to figure out what I like. I'ts like a fancy way to have a virtual "army painter" to test ideas and what not. The game is cheap now and is better than most things at figuring out exactly the paint job I'll finalize

True.

And the game is still fun, too!
I recommend this fun map: http://dawnofwar.filefront.com/file/Fortress_Multiplayer_Coop_Assault;97866

I realized grey knights and sister of battle seem abit more similar (at least to me) than sisters and blackTemplar. Have the sisters had any business with the grey knights?


Btw thanks for all the awesome information so far

DeathRex wrote:I realized grey knights and sister of battle seem abit more similar (at least to me) than sisters and blackTemplar. Have the sisters had any business with the grey knights?

Yeah, actually they had. In the 5E GK Codex an incident is described where a so-called daemonic "Bloodtide" breaks out on a planet, corrupting all it touches. Apparently even the Grey Knights are threatened by this taint, so they turn to the only force with members who somehow seem immune to this corruption - a bunch of Sororitas still fighting - and proceed to slaughter them in order to use their blood in some sort of anointment ritual that keeps the GK's themselves from being tainted so they can proceed with their mission.

It should be noted, however, that I deem it very unlikely that the Sisterhood has learned of this incident, so there shouldn't be any repercussions for their relationship. Both forces are extremely loyal to the Imperium, value purity, fight the same enemies and have relatively close ties to the Inquisition. It is the latter that could see them fight side by side on various occasions, only requiring some Inquisitor to request both Grey Knights as well as Sisters to back him up.

There's also a number of occasions where the Grey Knights and the Sisters have fought together or each other throughout the licensed material, iirc, but due to the nature of these books it's impossible to glean any consistent relationship out of these sources. As a player, you are free to interpret the relationship between these two organisations according to your own preferences. The lack of information in the studio sources themselves only gives you even more leeway.

DeathRex wrote:I realized grey knights and sister of battle seem abit more similar (at least to me) than sisters and blackTemplar. Have the sisters had any business with the grey knights?


Btw thanks for all the awesome information so far

The only contact I am aware with is when the Grey Knights chopped up some Sisters who were immune to a Choas plague thingy and used their annoited blood to protect themselves with.

Given that the Grey Knights are witches using profane and xenos weaponry so not the Sisters favourite people - which is why its nonsense they are more likely allies than the Black Templars - witch and Xenos hating fanatics ............

Mr Morden wrote:Given that the Grey Knights are witches using profane and xenos weaponry [...]

I thought that was some really deep secret they do not reveal to outsiders?

Now, I'm still somewhat used to the "shining knight" style they had before the last Codex turned them into Radical hypocrites - but is it really that obvious that they are doing forbidden stuff now?

Veteran Sergeant wrote: Again, they have as much in common as the Jews and Muslims. Hey, they even have as much in common with the Christian Crusaders and the Muslims. And we saw how well that turned out.

Funnily enough, real-life Crusaders allied themselves with Muslims from time to time. How likely you'd think is that fanatically Muslim Assassins would try to kill Saladin or ally themselves with Crusaders? Yet that's exactly what happened. I'm sure they blamed Phil Kelly from that nonsensical blurb.

And yet, hence why the Sisters and Templars are allowed to ally, even if only occasionally and uneasily.

It's amazing how people try so hard to be clever and prove me wrong, only to prove me right. Good lord son, did you think I don't know my history either? Look at the first part of that thought you left unquoted. I never suggested that Jews and Muslims just break into warfare at the mere sight of eachother. Neither did all Muslims and Christian Crusaders. You should just assume that I know everything you do and more. You're going to be right most of the time, and less likely to say something silly. I mean, if we're up on high level physics, I might be unarmed for the discussion. History, and military history, especially of the West, probably not. Especially if I've decided to cite it for reference previously.

Backfire wrote:Funnily enough, real-life Crusaders allied themselves with Muslims from time to time. How likely you'd think is that fanatically Muslim Assassins would try to kill Saladin or ally themselves with Crusaders? Yet that's exactly what happened. I'm sure they blamed Phil Kelly from that nonsensical blurb.

I found that comparison was rather flawed, anyways - it'd probably be more accurate to look at something like Catholic and Orthodox Christians, considering both the Marine and the Sisters still see themselves serving the same lord. And for all the differences that Catholics and Orthodox Christians have, they had little problem allying with each other in the crusades against the common enemy, seamlessly integrating their forces with each other and fighting under the same cross ... err, aquila.

Since anyone who sees a GK is either killed or mind-wiped, at least those not already "in the know", I suppose it stands to reason that GKs can stroll about dressed however they please. There's no need to keep up pretenses when no one is going to remember you were there anyway.

Psienesis wrote:Since anyone who sees a GK is either killed or mind-wiped, at least those not already "in the know", I suppose it stands to reason that GKs can stroll about dressed however they please. There's no need to keep up pretenses when no one is going to remember you were there anyway.

I think the question was more to initial reactions on the battlefield when first seeing/meeting each other? This reaction might depend a lot on appearances - just bearing the Inquisition's emblem on their armour would give them positive points, but sporting obvious xenos or even daemonic wargear would give them a lot more negatives. I've been under the impression that their weapons look fairly normal, though. Of course, it might just be a case-to-case thingie.

Think of the SOB as just that S.O.B's that are, umm female.

Take Joan of Arc, breed her with an inquisitor with the Torquemada genome, take that child and feed her Imperial Fascist xeno hating extremist dogma till her ears and eyes bleed... remove all humanity and common sense, then give her ridiculous skin tight nerd-lust sex armor and a hyper powered flamethrower to do a little house cleaning.

Might also be that, because the Imperium has such a wild variance in the appearance of equipment that its forces may wield, the xeno and archaeotech devices the GK carry might not immediately spring to mind as xeno or heretical to the average Imperial Citizen. I mean, they're obviously Space Marines, the God-Emperor's own Angels of Death... if they're carrying something, it must be good, right?

And, uh, no... most Sisters don't wear skin-tight armor. They have a bodyglove under the power armor that probably assists in the neural induction that keeps the armor moving and responding to her movements (allowing her to dodge while wearing 75-100kg of ceramite) and minimizes chafing. It's molded into a female figure, roughly (and depending on artist involved) but the SoB are far from being sex-kittens or gun-bunnies as seen in other media..... or in 40K as the DCA in their truly skin-tight black bodygloves.

Psienesis wrote:Might also be that, because the Imperium has such a wild variance in the appearance of equipment that its forces may wield, the xeno and archaeotech devices the GK carry might not immediately spring to mind as xeno or heretical to the average Imperial Citizen. I mean, they're obviously Space Marines, the God-Emperor's own Angels of Death... if they're carrying something, it must be good, right?

Heh, not a bad argument. I suppose it comes down to how "alien" it looks. I mean, if you compare a Tau pulse weapon with a Dark Eldar splinter rifle ...
And unlike most Imperial troops, many Sisters of Battle know the signs of something daemonic/corrupted when they see it. Chaos stuff usually has a rather cliché appearance, after all. The setting likes to drive the point home.

That said, on a glance I see nothing on their miniatures that looks "suspicious" - at least not any more suspicious than the stuff a lot of Inquisitors walk around with.

Lynata wrote:

jms40k wrote:Speaking of allies, do any of you think any of the "Famous Regiments of the Imperial Guard" are more/less likely to get along with the Sisters in battle?

Hum. We know little of the religious attitudes of their worlds. But if I were to hazard a guess, I'd say the Kriegs and the Mordians would get along well with the Sororitas - the former share the Sisters' penitent spirit and the latter share their discipline. Less likely to get along well are probably those regiments who are lacking in discipline, like the Savlars or the Necromundians.

It's lazy writing, but in many Black Library books, the Tallarn are noted as being particularly religious, and having a high number of priests..

ArbitorIan wrote:It's lazy writing, but in many Black Library books, the Tallarn are noted as being particularly religious, and having a high number of priests..

Hmm, nothing at all in either the 2E nor the 5E Codex about this (the latter even describes them as "pragmatic"), so that seems to be the individual authors' interpretation. I bet it stems from the Muslim cliché.
But it is an option, of course, depending on how much value one places upon these novels as sources.

Lynata wrote:

Backfire wrote:Funnily enough, real-life Crusaders allied themselves with Muslims from time to time. How likely you'd think is that fanatically Muslim Assassins would try to kill Saladin or ally themselves with Crusaders? Yet that's exactly what happened. I'm sure they blamed Phil Kelly from that nonsensical blurb.

I found that comparison was rather flawed, anyways - it'd probably be more accurate to look at something like Catholic and Orthodox Christians, considering both the Marine and the Sisters still see themselves serving the same lord. And for all the differences that Catholics and Orthodox Christians have, they had little problem allying with each other in the crusades against the common enemy, seamlessly integrating their forces with each other and fighting under the same cross ... err, aquila.

Well...although the Crusades were supposed to be Catholics helping out Orthodox Byzantine Empire against the Muslims, what actually happened is that Catholics sacked & conquered capital of the Byzantine Empire. No, I don't think they were "battle brothers".

In fact, when I think about it, it was almost impossible to form a Feodal army where the lords "seamlessly integrated their forces". Even if everyone was of same faith.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
It's amazing how people try so hard to be clever and prove me wrong, only to prove me right. Good lord son, did you think I don't know my history either? Look at the first part of that thought you left unquoted. I never suggested that Jews and Muslims just break into warfare at the mere sight of eachother. Neither did all Muslims and Christian Crusaders. You should just assume that I know everything you do and more. You're going to be right most of the time, and less likely to say something silly. I mean, if we're up on high level physics, I might be unarmed for the discussion. History, and military history, especially of the West, probably not. Especially if I've decided to cite it for reference previously.

Uh, I don't think I suggested there you were wrong in anything: didn't really even care what the argument was. I just mentioned it in passing, as an example of how "unfluffy" real-life alliances could sometimes be.

Backfire wrote:Well...although the Crusades were supposed to be Catholics helping out Orthodox Byzantine Empire against the Muslims, what actually happened is that Catholics sacked & conquered capital of the Byzantine Empire. No, I don't think they were "battle brothers".

That's an oversimplification ignoring the reasons behind the incident, though. Constantinople was not sacked due to religious differences but because of nobles scheming against nobles. Pope Innocence III himself had orders against violence of Christians vs Christians issued, they were just ignored and concealed from the army itself because certain commanders were more concerned with wordly politics than religious matters. They may well have riled up their troops using the schism as a pretence, but this does not change that without this manipulation, the troops were indeed friendly towards each other as long as they stood on the same side during all three crusades before the Fourth. This should not be forgotten only because their leaders craved only money, and because the troops themselves, being human, gave in to base and sinful desires as they were sacking the city.

In fact, the very first crusade was launched because the catholic Pope agreed to help the orthodox emperor in defence against the Muslims. There were no "catholic crusaders" and no "orthodox crusaders", they were all united as Christians. The Pope in his speech used the term "Christians of the East". They were, indeed, brothers in faith - and now brothers in arms.

Backfire wrote:In fact, when I think about it, it was almost impossible to form a Feodal army where the lords "seamlessly integrated their forces". Even if everyone was of same faith.

Ah, I was referring to the soldiers' attitude and treatment of each other, not the behaviour of any nobles, who of course were still hooked up in the various political games, alliances and feuds grounded in pre-crusade relationships. I would say the common soldier, on the other hand, rarely was concerned with such matters. They cared for their family and their faith.

Backfire wrote:I just mentioned it in passing, as an example of how "unfluffy" real-life alliances could sometimes be.

Well ... I think most people would agree that the chart is supposed to represent a certain standard, not any exceptions from the rule like these real-life alliances could certainly be counted as. Basically, to again use the crusades as a comparison, some dakkanauts are scratching their heads as to why, exactly, the "Catholics" are getting along better with the "Muslims" than they do with the "Orthodox". This may apply to a certain scenario, but should that really be the default mode for a whole campaign stretching across all crusades?

Just another few trhings to add to the story in case anyone still reading:

p50 One of the Black Templars Crusade Banners actually bears the symbol of the Ecclesiarchy "representing the Brides of the Emperor" during "perhaps the Black Templars finest hour". The banner honours "the other forces that fought to defeat Vandire".

The Sisterhood and the Black Templars are natural allies - hopefully this is an error and GW will reverse the standings of the BT adn the Wolves.

Mr Morden wrote:One of the Black Templars Crusade Banners actually bears the symbol of the Ecclesiarchy "representing the Brides of the Emperor" during "perhaps the Black Templars finest hour". The banner honours "the other forces that fought to defeat Vandire".

This is quite interesting, I had not noticed before. Nice find!

In return, I found a reference to the Space Wolves in the Index Astartes mentioning that they "see the Ecclesiarchy with little more than contempt". So, yeah ... as to that chart ...