Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

OK, so in 6th half your force may be in reserve, excepting units that must enter via reserve.

Enter terminator armor, which says models in terminator armor may always be held in reserve and deepstrike...

So can an all terminator army reserve everything?

The allowance from Terminator armor to deep strike is not a required action. It simply gives them the ability to do so. Can=/=Must.

So in short, no, an all terminator army like deathwing or loganwing can no longer fully reserve. Better toss in some land speeders and predators if you want all your terminators to play the reserve game.

I retract my previous statements after looking at the rules more in depth I agree the answer would be no. Unless of course you are playing daemons.

tetrisphreak wrote:The allowance from Terminator armor to deep strike is not a required action. It simply gives them the ability to do so. Can=/=Must.

So in short, no, an all terminator army like deathwing or loganwing can no longer fully reserve. Better toss in some land speeders and predators if you want all your terminators to play the reserve game.

This is the correct answer. The exception to the "no more than 50% rule" is Codex Deamons, and any other (hypothetical) codex that allowed you to take an army entirely consisting of units that HAD to start in reserve.

And besides, any game turn that ends where you have no models on the board means you automatically lose the game (pg 122).

yakface wrote:
And besides, any game turn that ends where you have no models on the board means you automatically lose the game (pg 122).

Good catch! That's a big change from 5th -- I'm going to have to go over that one with my gaming group and make sure everyone is aware of it.

Given the way terminator armor is worded, I would say that yes, it bypasses the 50% restriction since it specifically states that models in terminator armor may always be held in reserve (emphasis mine).

However, as yakface said, you can't put all your models in reserve unless some arrive turn 1, otherwise you automatically lose.

But again, "always may" is not the same as "must be"

They are counted towards the 50%.

They are counted towards it, however if you have ALL terminators 'always may" overrides "may not"

Speaking of Deathwing, they have Deathwing Assault so half of the reserved units will come in turn 1 so you dont have to worry about automatically losing.

Necronic Angel wrote:Speaking of Deathwing, they have Deathwing Assault so half of the reserved units will come in turn 1 so you dont have to worry about automatically losing.

Unless you are really bad with mishaps

So termies count as which half may deploy in reserve, with the additional bit that they may always start in reserve.

So if you have 5 termie units and 5 regular units, you can of course reserve all 5 termies, but not any of the other units, as half your army is selected already. If you have 5 termie units and only 1 regular unit, 5 termies may still start in reserve, as they have that special rule, but the final unit may not go in reserve as you have used your allotment of half your units. Seem right?

As for losing the game if you have nothing on the board, well hope that whatever you have on turn 1 doesnt die i guess.

DevianID wrote:So termies count as which half may deploy in reserve, with the additional bit that they may always start in reserve.

So if you have 5 termie units and 5 regular units, you can of course reserve all 5 termies, but not any of the other units, as half your army is selected already. If you have 5 termie units and only 1 regular unit, 5 termies may still start in reserve, as they have that special rule, but the final unit may not go in reserve as you have used your allotment of half your units. Seem right?

As for losing the game if you have nothing on the board, well hope that whatever you have on turn 1 doesnt die i guess.

Yeah, I think that seems accurate but it should definitely be FAQ'd by GW to be clear.

Basically as long as you always have the option to Deep Strike your Terminators using the normal 1/2 unit rule then you don't get any additional benefits from the Terminators 'may always deep strike' rule.

But the moment you have more than half of your units being Terminators, then whatever amount is above 1/2 of the force is what you would be allowed to put in Reserve even alongside the rest of the army that isn't terminators.

Necronic Angel wrote:Speaking of Deathwing, they have Deathwing Assault so half of the reserved units will come in turn 1 so you dont have to worry about automatically losing.

DW assault is also an exception to the 50% rule, as you MUST be in reserve to use it..

You must be in reserve to use DWA, but you dont DWA until turn 1. Thus DWA by itself does not let you go into reserve--but termie armor does it seems, so its all good.

Formosa wrote:

Necronic Angel wrote:Speaking of Deathwing, they have Deathwing Assault so half of the reserved units will come in turn 1 so you dont have to worry about automatically losing.

DW assault is also an exception to the 50% rule, as you MUST be in reserve to use it..

DevianID wrote:You must be in reserve to use DWA, but you dont DWA until turn 1. Thus DWA by itself does not let you go into reserve--but termie armor does it seems, so its all good.

DWA does not bypass the 50% rule any more than any other terminator squad can. You CAN put them in reserve, not that you MUST (like Drop Pods and Daemons)... so if you are saying that a DW can all sit in reserve, I don't see the rule that backs that up. 1/2 of your units can, but you can use combat squading (if DW TDA can) to offset that a bit

ie: You have 4 terminator squads of 10, normally that would mean 20 deployed, 20 DS. But you can CS one of them, giving you now 5 squads, allowing you to reserve 30 of them and deploy 10 of them.

Lobukia, it says you may always put models with terminator armor in reserve to deepstrike.

If you have a total of 6 units, 5 of which are all equipped with terminator armor, you may always put those 5 units in reserve to deepstrike. Even if the mission does not normally allow it.

Termie armor just says you always can, it doesn't give you specific permission to override the 50% rule though, the only exemption is when more than 50% of your army is required to be placed in reserve(example Chaos Daemons) not just because more than 50% of your squads have the option to be placed in reserve.

The part about may always start in reserve even if that is not part of the rules for the current mission wouldn't override the 50% because that is not part of the mission and is instead just a normal rule. Now if the rule said that models in Terminator armor must start in reserve that would be a completely different story.

DevianID wrote:Lobukia, it says you may always put models with terminator armor in reserve to deepstrike.

If you have a total of 6 units, 5 of which are all equipped with terminator armor, you may always put those 5 units in reserve to deepstrike. Even if the mission does not normally allow it.

"may", not "must". If terminators (and DW) had to be in reserve, then they would not be affected by the 50% restriction, as it is voluntary (just like putting almost any other unit in reserve), they are limited like most other units.

Cheexsta wrote:

Necronic Angel wrote:Speaking of Deathwing, they have Deathwing Assault so half of the reserved units will come in turn 1 so you dont have to worry about automatically losing.

Unless you are really bad with mishaps

in which case you would probably lose anyway...

logan wing in drop pods can all be held in reserve at the start since the termies and drop pod count as the same unit and the drop pod has to be kept in reserve.

spongemonkee wrote:logan wing in drop pods can all be held in reserve at the start since the termies and drop pod count as the same unit and the drop pod has to be kept in reserve.

True. But the only thing mattering there is the drop pods, which don't apply to Deathwing (and calling Wolfguard, Deathwing can get any SW or DA player in some serious trouble). Or is this just the proud SW rubbing the DA's noses in the sudden elevation of LW over DW?

I agree that terminators do count toward the 50% restriction, however because a terminator may always choose to be in reserve, if you have all terminators in reserve then you could potentially go over the 50% restriction.

Your reading would mean that if you have 10 total units, 6 of which are terminator units, then the 6th terminator unit MAY NOT deepstrike if there are already 5 units in reserve. The terminator armor special rule states this is false--terminators MAY ALWAYS deep strike.

DevianID wrote:I agree that terminators do count toward the 50% restriction, however because a terminator may always choose to be in reserve, if you have all terminators in reserve then you could potentially go over the 50% restriction.

Your reading would mean that if you have 10 total units, 6 of which are terminator units, then the 6th terminator unit MAY NOT deepstrike if there are already 5 units in reserve. The terminator armor special rule states this is false--terminators MAY ALWAYS deep strike.

May =/= must.

One is permissive, one is restrictive.

The only models that do not count towards the 50% limis are models that are restricted from being placed in the deployment phase. The big rulebook is pretty clear on that. The only way that you can circumvent the deployment rule is if you are restricted from deploying.

The Terminator rule make it clear that they can deep strike even if there are no rules in the scenario for deep striking, but there is no rule saying that they are not allowed to deploy at the beginning of the game so they do not ignore the 50% rule.

Being allowed to always deep strike is not the same as not being allowed to deploy normally.

"May always deep strike" is not the same as "must always deep strike".

Just to take a little side track you can keep a full army in reserve.

Follow the train
1) NECRONS
2) Only army with FLYER dedicated transports.
3) All FLYER army with NIGHT SCYTHES and DOOM SCYTHES.
4) Join IC to TROOP that is in dedicated transport no longer counts in the same way as a drop pod.
5) You LOSE at the end of GAME TURN 1.

d-usa, by your reading, an all terminator army can not choose to always deepstrike.

You say this despite terminators having a rule saying the exact opposite?

"They may always start the game in reserve and enter play by deepstriking" To me, that specifically over rides the general reserve rule every model in the game has that says only half may go in reserve.

Note, I am not saying termies do not count as part of the half of the army that can go in reserve. I am saying that if you only have termies in reserve, terminators may exceed the normal restriction of half your army in reserve, because they have a special rule that grants them this ability--a rule I quoted.

DevianID wrote:d-usa, by your reading, an all terminator army can not choose to always deepstrike.

You say this despite terminators having a rule saying the exact opposite?

"They may always start the game in reserve and enter play by deepstriking" To me, that specifically over rides the general reserve rule every model in the game has that says only half may go in reserve.

Note, I am not saying termies do not count as part of the half of the army that can go in reserve. I am saying that if you only have termies in reserve, terminators may exceed the normal restriction of half your army in reserve, because they have a special rule that grants them this ability--a rule I quoted.

But they don't HAVE to start the game in reserve. That's the difference. They CAN start the game in reserves, but they are not required to do so. This isn't even a rules conflict honestly. I am surprised this even keeps being brought up.

DevianID wrote:d-usa, by your reading, an all terminator army can not choose to always deepstrike.

You say this despite terminators having a rule saying the exact opposite?

"They may always start the game in reserve and enter play by deepstriking" To me, that specifically over rides the general reserve rule every model in the game has that says only half may go in reserve.

Note, I am not saying termies do not count as part of the half of the army that can go in reserve. I am saying that if you only have termies in reserve, terminators may exceed the normal restriction of half your army in reserve, because they have a special rule that grants them this ability--a rule I quoted.

Quote me the section that prevents them from deploying normally.

The only units that are exempt are units that cannot deploy, and terminators do not qualify.

The terminator special rule allows you to deep strike even if a mission specific rule states "no units may deep strike". But it does not prevent units from deploying normally so it does not overwrite the 50% rule.

The rulebook is pretty clear that the only excemption to the rule are units that must start in reserve. And terminators are not required to start in reserve.

they CAN start the game in reserves, but they are not required to do so.

Rob, every single unit in the game other than a flyer CAN start the game in reserve. Everyone has that option.

Terminators get an EXTRA rule, that no one else gets. This extra rule explicitly mentions reserve. In fact, the terminator special rule talks about reserve even before mentioning deep strike.

The rulebook says that anyone can go in reserve, up to half the army, under the mission special rules, pg 124.

Terminators may always start in reserve "even if it is not part of the mission being played." Again, the mission being played allows no more than half your unit in reserve, terminators special rule over rides this.

EDIT: to be clear, terminators in reserve to deepstrike do count against your max of half forces in reserve--they are not a 'must reserve' unit. Thus a force with 6 termie units and 2 regular units can normally reserve 4 units in a normal mission, BUT can still reserve all 6 termie units instead if specifically using their deepstrike, because that is what termie special rule lets them do.

If no reserves are allowed in the scenario being played, they may still enter in reserve. That doesn't overwrite the limit for maximum units that can enter in reserves because there is not a single rule in their codex that prevents them from deploying normaly.

If you play a scenario with a "no reserves" rule, then they can still be placed in reserves. But that doesn't overwrite the gamewide limit of 50%.

The rulebook states "only 50%, except units that must be placed in reserves", not "only 50%, except units that must be placed in reserves or are allowed to always enter in reserve".

Only 50%, unless a unit can't. Terminators can.

Edit:

Also, I don't have the codex in front of me but I the wording is more to the effect of: "Terminators may deep strike even if the rules for the mission doesn't include reserves". So even the actual wording of the codex doesn't have a modifier that over rules the limit of how many units can be placed in reserves, just that they can be placed in reserves even in a game without reserves.