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I'm opening this thread so we can discuss about this. I think that many of us have different points of view about this and that is what good discussion threads are made of.

Mannahnin wrote:This looks like a good initial post for a new thread. I've cut it from the thread and pasted it below, in case you want to use it:

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I think that we are witnessing how a good idea can be completely transformed by the market into something not so good.

As someone has pointed out in this thread Kickstarter was created as a way for enthusiast beginners to reaise their projects but CoolMiniorNot is using it as a Pre-Order store for "launching a new product risk-free" and copying intellectual properties for making them more attractive.

This is like if tomorrow... WarnerBros. makes a Kickstarter to finance their next Batman movie pre-selling the tickets for summer of 2013 and seducing fanboys by telling them that if they put some extra money they will put the Avengers (or some shameless copy) in it.

I'm following some other projects in Kickstarter that seem to be legitimal projects, not already done products asking for pre-order. For Example, "Dark Potential" is a wargame that is really been made by this financial tool and you can follow the videos of how the project is growing.
There are also some guys goign to release a Dwarf army for their small company.
I mean... this is what the crowdfunding was made for.

Zombiecide has some characters from Machete, PulpFiction, DieHard, Kill Bill and the Big Bang Tehory among others...
Sedition Wars has Lt.Ripley, Riddick, the guy from Dead Space and the whole crew of the Serenity...


No shame in this. No original ideas at all.
Time invested in concept designing 0,5 seconds. ALL PROFIT.

This miniatures were made by fan request. For me this is like THE END of creativity, the END of original concept design, this is total masturbation. Tomorrow every table top game will have their own copy of Wolverine, Batman and Optimus Prime because "being awesome" is more important than making something truly original.

Kickstarter projects are heading to some "Poochie" tabletop products so copy/paste made that no one will take tabletop and wargaming seriously.


This seems like there is no future.

50/ 50?

If you have a good idea, and you need a quick startup, Kickstarter is a good place...

HOWEVER- I've made observation in another thred, I/E the Henticles I think it was card game, that THIS way of funding can and will be a double edge sword.

For one point- WHAT happens to you if and when Kickstarter pulls your project, because you hurt some Nancy's precious feelings? Are they liable for YOU losing your funding? Are they legally responsible if, after funding, you pull up all that hard earned coin, and disappear into the internetz? How far are they responsible for your idea getting axed, and you losing sponsership, and what are they exactly responsible for?

What exactly is there stake in a project that, ala Alabaster- the project explodes, and they get, what was it- 5% of that?

WHO exactly are they paying the taxes to? and to how many countries are they holden, in regards to taxation, thereby pushing the taxing burdan onto the crew thats proposing the project? Are backers eventually going to be taking it in the hindquarters?

As to the "Geek Start up", This thing works for even the relativly tame stuff. "Geeks" are just part in parcel to the game of funding projects.


Myself? I only care about good games that need funding. Pretty Petunia and her "Idea for World Peace" can bite me. Those turkeys are leeching and using this as an alternative cash cow to a real job. You fund some crap like that, you deserve to get hosed.

BobbaFett wrote:Zombiecide has some characters from Machete, PulpFiction, DieHard, Kill Bill and the Big Bang Tehory among others...
Sedition Wars has Lt.Ripley, Riddick, the guy from Dead Space and the whole crew of the Serenity...

No shame in this. No original ideas at all.
Time invested in concept designing 0,5 seconds. ALL PROFIT.

This miniatures were made by fan request. For me this is like THE END of creativity, the END of original concept design, this is total masturbation. Tomorrow every table top game will have their own copy of Wolverine, Batman and Optimus Prime because "being awesome" is more important than making something truly original.

Kickstarter projects are heading to some "Poochie" tabletop products so copy/paste made that no one will take tabletop and wargaming seriously.

Yeah, before you know it some joker will launch a tabletop wargame that steals all of its background from Michael Moorcock and Frank Herbert...

CMON has been using it a as cool way to market their new projects.

The community gets something that they value, the company gets to gauge interest in a product that they are planning on releasing and in exchange gives Kickstarter a share of their earnings... I really fail to see why this can be considered a bad thing in any way shape or form and can cause such controversy?!

I can see the point your making like, Its true that bigger companies will use it for their own benefit as well, but such is life.

At the end of the day, if you think it sucks, don't fund it!

I think despite any perceived cons, its still a good thing for us hobbyists, because it gets more stuff out there, and that can only be a good thing in my eyes.

Because CMON is an established company with its own established income/cashflow/revenue streams and is more than capable of undertaking these projects ON THEIR OWN with THEIR OWN DAMNED MONEY. Their use of kickstarter as a financial tool is degrading its effectiveness in regards to its intended users (for those of you who cant figure it out, the intended user is "you and me" the little guy with no money in the bank but big dreams and ambitions for something that others might enjoy, its meant for startups, entrepeneurs ,and artists, not established companies and industry). Kickstarter funds are limited, companies like steve jackson and CMON are sucking those funds up far faster than the 'little guys' that want and need those same funds.Dont believe me?? A few months back a group of guys i game w backed a half dozen different gaming projects each, we had an avid kickstarter 'fanbase' that enjoyed backing things, now thats pretty much dead because their spare funds are tapped out. They backed relatively small projects that never hit the 6digits... now imagine how many others are finding themselves in the same spot thanks to ogre and sedition words. You should all be veritably pissed that these companies are using Kickstarter to fund things that they are largely capable of doing themselves (without even giving you guys a real break on product pricing for that manner), because every time they do theres a little less of the pie to go around to you, your buddy, or whoever else out there that might have a cool new, creative and ORIGINAL idea for what might be the next big thing, and actually needs crowdsourced funds to make it a reality, instead of simply using them to increase profit margins and to avoid the risk that would otherwise keep them from releasing a gakky product.

mattyrm wrote:
At the end of the day, if you think it sucks, don't fund it!

Pretty much!

Kickstarter (and similar sites) are true "Vote with Your Wallet" events - if it is good and worth it (Eye of the Beholder and all that), than it will meet and probably beat the goals.

If not, it will fail and that's that.

chaos0xomega wrote:Because CMON is an established company with its own established income/cashflow/revenue streams and is more than capable of undertaking these projects ON THEIR OWN with THEIR OWN DAMNED MONEY. Their use of kickstarter as a financial tool is degrading its effectiveness in regards to its intended users (for those of you who cant figure it out, the intended user is "you and me" the little guy with no money in the bank but big dreams and ambitions for something that others might enjoy, its meant for startups, entrepeneurs ,and artists, not established companies and industry

But why do you think like that? Why is it degrading anything? Surely if those budding young entrepreneurs come up with a project that the community likes, then it will be funded as well. This isn't a zero sum scheme where if your neighbour got something then that means that you won't get your share... The potential is the same for everyone involved, be it a penniless game designer with a gleam on their eye or an established games company looking to secure their next project in the most sensible way possible.

Zombicide and Sedition Wars got the funding that they did because the community liked what they saw and wanted a piece of it, that is just capitalism at work.

Some valid points raised. I can certainly appreciate the controversial aspects of how crowdfunding sites can be used and, in some eyes, abused.

There are definitely some legal and tax issues that perhaps aren't quite clear (and even some that haven't been accounted for that - when one eventually rears its ugly head - will inevitably cause trouble), but then it is always going to be difficult when you have business projects/transactions that are global. Different countries = different laws.

Overall, the idea of crowdfunding is brilliant and is perfect for many skint, cash-strapped creative individuals to release an innovative product when otherwise they would struggle to get funding. There are some truly exceptional projects on Kickstarter and Indiegogo that, without crowdfunding, may never have seen the light of day.

However, as with most things in life (and especially when it comes to technology and the internet) there is invariably a flip side. For me, though, it's all down to personal preference - if you like it and you want it enough, then fund it.

Yeah im on mobile device, premature posting, check it again.

Youre wrong though, it is a form of zero sum scheme, the crowdsource wallet is not bottomless, and the internet based gaming community is not particularly large (especially not those that fund kickstarter projects) that pool of funds will dry up or run low eventually.

And i qurstion whether or not they received that funding because people liked what they saw... to me it seems more likely that they simply saw more. I.e. the community that frequents such websites saw the ad blitz which directed them to fund the project as a preorder... im sure dreamforge games or deep wars could have made 900+k usd on kickstarter if they had a webaite that pulled hundreds of thousands of views daily or they had more than one or two established emplyees etc working on the concept artwork etc.

That's true. But, the larger companies already have lots of different outlets for their products. At present I think we are having something approaching a 'golden age' of wargaming. There have never been so many quality games out there, with some truly breathtaking miniatures and game systems. You have to ask, why has that happened, and why not previously?

In part I think you have to look at the rise of the internet, and an increase in the number of methods that new companies can use to make customers aware of their products. 20 years ago or so, when I first got into wargaming, there was only really one option for fantasy/sci-fi enthusiasts and that was to buy White Dwarf. At one time that used to advertise many different games, but being GW's own magazine and the switch of their focus, other company's products were soon cut out of the magazine. But, come the internet and (perhaps fortunately for the industry as a whole) the big GW has been a little slow to make use of the Internet as a viable form of advertising - in fact, there is still practically zero marketing, and only fan-made blogs and forums such as Dakka discuss their games. This has been for the benefit of other, smaller companies who have been able to make use of this advantage and try and complete the incredibly difficult task of getting games to put down one system and pick up another.

In some ways this has meant that smaller games, like Infinity/Malifaux have managed to combine their smaller player base so that their playing membership can reach a 'critical mass' (the point at which you know a game system will still be there in a few years time - many have not achieved this). And ultimately, we come to Kickstarter - this in my eyes has the potential to take our current 'golden age' perhaps a step further, at least until the bigger companies, such as GW and PP, cotton onto it and start to muscle out the smaller guys, and with it the innovation and experimentation that has been such a breath of fresh air to the industry.

But aside from this, and the fact that I think the likes of GW using Kickstarter will potentially block new ideas in place of 'old familiar' style games, is it right that GW could use this system?

I think a problem might arise specifically if a publicly owned company uses Kickstarter funding, and IMO would (and should) get a real customer backlash. The reasons are as follows, specifically regarding GW:
- GW had an operating profit of almost £15 million last year.
- They last instigated a dividend payment which resulted in again almost £15 given out to shareholders. Of this, their majority shareholder in the form of Tom Kirby received almost half a million pounds.
It's incidental, but these profit and shareholder dividends come on top of massive staff layoffs, with several hundred staff given their marching orders in the switch to 'one man' stores.

So with all this in mind, and GW's absolutely incredible bottom line figures (which must dwarf, by some margin, any other company in the industry) why would they need the public's capital and investment up-front in the form of a Kickstarter project? And is such a thing even legal in the context of a company that already has publicly traded shares - the whole reason for which is essentially the same as that of Kickstarter i.e. using other people's capital in order to fund projects?

The reason I feel so aggrieved about this issue is that GW don't need this form of investment provided by KS, whereas all of the projects which have been featured on the likes of Dakka most certainly do. GW chooses not to invest in new projects; Plastic SoB, a re-invigoration of Epic/Blood Bowl or its skirmish games, a larger move into other forms of entertainment, taking the industry into new areas with computer and web technology, and new CAD techniques. It has the operating profits to do all of this, and more, if it wants to. But, as is often the way, it has catapaulted backwards from its era of crazy experimentation with various games in the 90's, to become exactly the opposite and extremely timid - trotting out the same old stuff year after year, and taking no 'risks' at all with new ideas. And what is the end game with it? "Please invest in this Kickstarter for a higher quality resin and improved pressure-casting equipment, so we can make Finecast a product that matches its name?"

I think GW would lose even more respect from the customer base if it ran a kickstarter project, if such a thing is possible, and my only comforting thought that they won't is that they are so hopelessly inept at the upper management level, and such a behemoth of a company, that it will probably take them several years to even realise that KS even exists. In the meantime, hopefully we will get more of the likes of 'Sedition Wars', and it will allow artists with vision (such as McVey) to realise their dreams, rather than people from the sales department just using it as a way to get a healthier looking bottom line on the end of year reports.

Sorry for the massive wall of text!

First, I would like to say that the title of this thread is a false dilemma.

Lots of people use kickstarter for different things. If what they want to do works for them, then good. I wouldn't have picked up sedition wars if it weren't for kickstarter, so I am content with its function.

If you don't like "big" companies on kickstarter, don't back them. Simple as that.

GW ever using crowdfunding would be like Horus 'borrowing' a load of his dad's Astartes to conquer the galaxy...

Oh, wait a second - that actually happened...

Because CMON is an established company with its own established income/cashflow/revenue streams and is more than capable of undertaking these projects ON THEIR OWN with THEIR OWN DAMNED MONEY. Their use of kickstarter as a financial tool is degrading its effectiveness in regards to its intended users (for those of you who cant figure it out, the intended user is "you and me" the little guy with no money in the bank but big dreams and ambitions for something that others might enjoy, its meant for startups, entrepeneurs ,and artists, not established companies and industry).

You do understand how business works? Even established businesses turn to investors much of the time when preparing to launch a new product or expand a current product line. Using Kickstarter is a way to find many small investors instead of a few large ones. The payoff is in the perks and the idea that a product that the investors are interested in will see the light of day. If the potential product/perk is worth it to you, consider investing, if not don't invest. Either way, nobody is getting hurt and I can't understand the hurt feelings so many seem to be experiencing over this sort of thing.

chaos0xomega wrote:Yeah im on mobile device, premature posting, check it again.

Youre wrong though, it is a form of zero sum scheme, the crowdsource wallet is not bottomless, and the internet based gaming community is not particularly large (especially not those that fund kickstarter projects) that pool of funds will dry up or run low eventually.

And i qurstion whether or not they received that funding because people liked what they saw... to me it seems more likely that they simply saw more. I.e. the community that frequents such websites saw the ad blitz which directed them to fund the project as a preorder... im sure dreamforge games or deep wars could have made 900+k usd on kickstarter if they had a webaite that pulled hundreds of thousands of views daily or they had more than one or two established emplyees etc working on the concept artwork etc.

Ok, I disagree with you on your base premise, but lets run with it anyway for arguments sake: assume that it really is a zero sum game, it still is the ultimate consumer choice! Your friends made the decision for themselves on where to spend their money and which projects to fund, it was THEIR decision not some evil big greedy corporation.

And I'm still seeing all those lesser "gleam in the eye" type projects get funded as well (well, most of them at least, some just scream "money grab" to me), just not to the 1 million dollars tune that the more "marketing oriented" ones are getting, so I still think that everyobody wins in the end, call me an optimist!

I would welcome a GW Kickstarter Campain for Specialist Games. With open arms.

I sometimes fear that the "failure" of Dreadfleet will deter GW from doing more of these insanely high quality, high value-for-your-dollar games. Kickstarter would immediately alleviate those concerns.

What's that GW? You're doing a Kickstarter for a new Adeptus Titanacus Boxed Game with Imperial and Eldar forces, each with 10 Warlord/Warhound/Reaver Titans and 8 Knight Titans? Sign me up.

The fact remains this: Who cares what company is doing a Kickstarter? Why would you be so concerned about a company utilizing it as a way to gague how large a print run they should do and to mitigate risk? Why is that a bad thing? In fact, I would encourage GW & Privateer to fund any of their 'side' projects on Kickstarter so that they can mitigate that risk of product failure.

The more our favorite companies mitigate their risk and dont waste money, the more high quality projects side projects we'd see in the future.

cincydooley wrote:I would welcome a GW Kickstarter Campain for Specialist Games. With open arms.

I sometimes fear that the "failure" of Dreadfleet will deter GW from doing more of these insanely high quality, high value-for-your-dollar games. Kickstarter would immediately alleviate those concerns.

What's that GW? You're doing a Kickstarter for a new Adeptus Titanacus Boxed Game with Imperial and Eldar forces, each with 10 Warlord/Warhound/Reaver Titans and 8 Knight Titans? Sign me up.

The fact remains this: Who cares what company is doing a Kickstarter? Why would you be so concerned about a company utilizing it as a way to gague how large a print run they should do and to mitigate risk? Why is that a bad thing? In fact, I would encourage GW & Privateer to fund any of their 'side' projects on Kickstarter so that they can mitigate that risk of product failure.

The more our favorite companies mitigate their risk and dont waste money, the more high quality projects side projects we'd see in the future.

As much as I would love specialist games back, I would never back up GW after it has repeatedly given out dividends, and it would be kind of fishy with the share Mr. Kirby has.

Kickstarter has pretty much always been a preorder platform. Due to the way it's set up with the reward levels, very few people are throwing money at a project just to see it get off the ground. They want something in return, and it's obviously not going to be financial. People Kickstart projects because they want the product and are willing to foot the bill well in advance, not because they care if it's "indy" or not.

Heh, like I'm not adding the no-it's-not-Serenity-honest *cough* crew to my Kickstarter order... and not that lass from BSG, nooo... or Ridley (lol).

Since when has *originality* been a requirement?

As for GW ever doing a kickstarter? Nah, can't see that happening; far, far too requiring of a positive community outlook that's well fostered, and a continually *improving* deal for the customer. Y'know, increased sales volume versus unit profit, that kind of thing. There's a really good article on Wired that covers CMON's strategy for Kickstarters, it's very logical and it's been no surprise that it's worked well for them.

winterdyne wrote:
As for GW ever doing a kickstarter? Nah, can't see that happening; far, far too requiring of a positive community outlook that's well fostered, and a continually *improving* deal for the customer. Y'know, increased sales volume versus unit profit, that kind of thing. There's a really good article on Wired that covers CMON's strategy for Kickstarters, it's very logical and it's been no surprise that it's worked well for them.

Well there's also the fact that GW is a publicly traded company, and going on the Internet to ask for money to fund a project likely would not instill great faith in your investors.


Although I think Pacific has pretty much said my thoughts on the matter.

As it's cash generation based entirely on a presale basis, I wouldn't see a problem, given a sufficient volume of sales. Proper, provable market research and community support would be key to both the Kickstarter pitch and making sure your investors knew what the deal was.

Hell, if I could buy shares in CMON right now, I bloody would.

The problem is that even with market research and community support, it still would not really make investors comfortable.

Notice that the companies which are doing Kickstarters right now are private. Mantic, CMON, etc.

Aye. They're also the ones to watch. :-/

The mere fact that a kickstarter project gets funded proves they have a market, whether you or we think the project is unoriginal or a blatant ripoff. As said above, 'vote with your wallet'.

Often the problem is that someone designs a product and then tries to find a market for it, trying to market it to his intended audience. If he was right in his assumptions he'll be selling his product. If not..

With Kickstarter the market creates the product, basically, with the reward levels attracting people that want those specific rewards.

6 of one, half dozen of the other.

Little of column 'A', little of column 'B'.

I'm not interested in any of the projects, so I don't back them. No risk, no gain. No problems.

I've "invested" in stuff before that tanked, and stuff that paid off - enough that it compensated for the tankings. I'm not young and "adventurous" anymore, so I leave that to the instant gratification "I MUST have this" crowd, these days.

winterdyne wrote:There's a really good article on Wired that covers CMON's strategy for Kickstarters, it's very logical and it's been no surprise that it's worked well for them.

Say, Winterdyne - I'd really like to read that article. Can you provide a link?

Cheers!

I'm currently working on a wargame/setting sourcebook and I had a look at Kickstarter as well as other options.

Quickly concluded that KS might not be for anyone.

Took a look at KS, thought long and hard about it and asked myself "what do I need this for?"

Couldn't come up with an answer.

I had found a 'zero startup cost' way of releasing my book, something that also includes hard copies as well as PDFs.

Probably will look at KS again in the future, it just depends whether I actually need it if theres no other way.

That article:
http://www.wired.com/design/2012/06/coolminiornot-success-kickstarter/

PS: Your google-fu is weak.

There are a number of points being made in this thread and I'm going to address them all with no reference and in no particular order, so it might look a bit like a rant.

Kickstarter is intended as a way for small businesses to get risk-free, debt-free capital. Normally a small company with a bright idea would have to go to a bank with business plans, or find some other angel investor who wants some cut of their money, or eat into their own funds. Instead of that, kickstarter lets you show a decent product, drum up interest, take pre-orders and then begin manufacturing, whilst your backers possibly get a small reward for their help. The reward may not be tangible to them; it may be in improved product for everyone, which is still a cool thing.

This isn't necessarily a way for big, established businesses to go, especially publicly traded ones. Presumably they already have either capital or investors.

As the wired article says, CMON with their board games has a few things sorted:
1) Their product is nearly complete
2) Small funding goal and minimum viable product
3) Polish
4) Extras.

This comes to the topic of 'did SW rip off Firefly/Riddick/etc with their game?' Well, to an extent, but only as much as GW ripped off Tolkien or Moorcock or Giger. And this is what tabletop gamers want! Its easy to forget in GW's modern era of grim-dark-seriousness that their miniatures and games were founded on the back of thinly veiled pop culture references.

We've seen kickstarter succeed on board games; we've also seen the huge disinterest in the 'minis with enemies' kickstarter (which had none of the four points above that CMON has). Its a very direct way of 'voting with your wallet'.

Trasvi wrote:.... And this is what tabletop gamers want! Its easy to forget in GW's modern era of grim-dark-seriousness that their miniatures and games were founded on the back of thinly veiled pop culture references.

And this is what I've been missing for a long, long time... it's fun to have pastiches of those characters we know from movies etc. Does anyone remember Inquisitor Clouseau? GW lost some of their initially mischievous spirit in a headlong dive toward Emo-Goth-Grimdarkness. Nice to see other firms placing tongue firmly in cheek.