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Two questions.

It appears that independent characters do not need to be in btb with an enemy model to fight that assault phase?

It appears that an independent character that will fight at different initiatives will make two pile in moves?

Pile-In's occur at the start of each initiative step and during End of Combat. The IC will be able to "Pile-In" (and attempt to get into b2b if he isn't already) during their initiative and then again at end of combat if he is still alive.

Also note that there doesn't appear to be any declaring attacks against IC outside of a challenge either, wound allocation just goes to models in b2b first then... etc.

jms40k wrote:Pile-In's occur at the start of each initiative step and during End of Combat. The IC will be able to "Pile-In" (and attempt to get into b2b if he isn't already) during their initiative and then again at end of combat if he is still alive.

Also note that there doesn't appear to be any declaring attacks against IC outside of a challenge either, wound allocation just goes to models in b2b first then... etc.

But what happens when an ic has attacks at different initiatives? Say like at i5 and i1?

It appears that the ic makes two pile ins, one at i5 and another at i1.

Yup, no more allocation. On close combat unless your IC is the only one in btb with an enemy unit he is forced to take the saves, however usually this won't happen and you'll have a mix of your troop and IC on btb, having both type of models on the same distance you decide which one save.

imweasel wrote:

jms40k wrote:Pile-In's occur at the start of each initiative step and during End of Combat. The IC will be able to "Pile-In" (and attempt to get into b2b if he isn't already) during their initiative and then again at end of combat if he is still alive.

Also note that there doesn't appear to be any declaring attacks against IC outside of a challenge either, wound allocation just goes to models in b2b first then... etc.

But what happens when an ic has attacks at different initiatives? Say like at i5 and i1?

It appears that the ic makes two pile ins, one at i5 and another at i1.

Give an example?

Examples are tech marines and their equivalents and special weapons that allow some attacks as one weapon type that strikes at one initiative and another weapon type at a slower initiative, such as the ace of morkai.

If strike at an iniative is not the same as the model's initiative, wouldn't that mean Sarg with powerfist pile in at I4 and swing at I1?

leohart wrote:If strike at an iniative is not the same as the model's initiative, wouldn't that mean Sarg with powerfist pile in at I4 and swing at I1?

So how would this work out?

imweasel wrote:Examples are tech marines and their equivalents and special weapons that allow some attacks as one weapon type that strikes at one initiative and another weapon type at a slower initiative, such as the ace of morkai.

Page 51 under more than one weapons says if a model has more than one melee weapon it must choose which one to attack with.

This apparantly replaces the "all attackes must be made with the special weapon" in 5th edition.

The new rule seems to give you a bit more of a choice, allowing you to strike with a higher initiative by using a different weapon.

As I read it, if you have a sarge with a pistol and a powerfist, you can assault at hie regular initiative using the pistol, or at initiative 1 using the power fist. Unless I'm reading it wrong.

time wizard wrote:

imweasel wrote:Examples are tech marines and their equivalents and special weapons that allow some attacks as one weapon type that strikes at one initiative and another weapon type at a slower initiative, such as the ace of morkai.

Page 51 under more than one weapons says if a model has more than one melee weapon it must choose which one to attack with.

This apparantly replaces the "all attackes must be made with the special weapon" in 5th edition.

The new rule seems to give you a bit more of a choice, allowing you to strike with a higher initiative by using a different weapon.

As I read it, if you have a sarge with a pistol and a powerfist, you can assault at hie regular initiative using the pistol, or at initiative 1 using the power fist. Unless I'm reading it wrong.

That doesn't answer his question.

A Techmarine has a power weapon, which makes attacks at I4. He also has a servo-arm, which makes attacks at I1. Does he pile in for both?

I believe there is a weapon in the Chaos Codex that is similar. It is allowed to split its attacks between high-init normal strength and low-init high strength.

He's not referring to Joe IC with a power weapon and a power fist.

culsandar wrote:

time wizard wrote:

imweasel wrote:Examples are tech marines and their equivalents and special weapons that allow some attacks as one weapon type that strikes at one initiative and another weapon type at a slower initiative, such as the ace of morkai.

Page 51 under more than one weapons says if a model has more than one melee weapon it must choose which one to attack with.

This apparantly replaces the "all attackes must be made with the special weapon" in 5th edition.

The new rule seems to give you a bit more of a choice, allowing you to strike with a higher initiative by using a different weapon.

As I read it, if you have a sarge with a pistol and a powerfist, you can assault at hie regular initiative using the pistol, or at initiative 1 using the power fist. Unless I'm reading it wrong.

That doesn't answer his question.

A Techmarine has a power weapon, which makes attacks at I4. He also has a servo-arm, which makes attacks at I1. Does he pile in for both?

I believe there is a weapon in the Chaos Codex that is similar. It is allowed to split its attacks between high-init normal strength and low-init high strength.

He's not referring to Joe IC with a power weapon and a power fist.

How it works is the Initiative step is when the pile in moves are made. You make pile in moves at your actual initiative value, regardless of whether you strike at a higher or lower initiative value. On page 23 it says "any model who's Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step..." That means the initiative listed on the profile, regardless of if he strikes at a lower value.

Lone Dragoon wrote: How it works is the Initiative step is when the pile in moves are made. You make pile in moves at your actual initiative value, regardless of whether you strike at a higher or lower initiative value. On page 23 it says "any model who's Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step..." That means the initiative listed on the profile, regardless of if he strikes at a lower value.

But on page 2 under modifiers, the rules say that certain wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristic.

It could add to it, multipy it, reduce it, or even just set it's value.

Unwieldy is a special rule that says a model with the rule strikes at initiative 1.

So that special rule has modified the model's initiative characteristic to '1', and it will make pile-in moves and attacks at that initiative step.

time wizard wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote: How it works is the Initiative step is when the pile in moves are made. You make pile in moves at your actual initiative value, regardless of whether you strike at a higher or lower initiative value. On page 23 it says "any model who's Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step..." That means the initiative listed on the profile, regardless of if he strikes at a lower value.

But on page 2 under modifiers, the rules say that certain wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristic.

It could add to it, multipy it, reduce it, or even just set it's value.

Unwieldy is a special rule that says a model with the rule strikes at initiative 1.

So that special rule has modified the model's initiative characteristic to '1', and it will make pile-in moves and attacks at that initiative step.

I don't have rulebook yet, but "a model with the Unwieldy rule strikes at Initiative 1" is completely different from "model with the Unwieldy rule has its Initiative value reduced to 1".

It says that a model attacking with that weapon will attack at initiative step 1.

So if a model does not attack with an unwieldy weapon what initiative does it use? It uses it's own unmodified initiative.

The unwieldy weapon is a piece of wargear, and the unwieldy special rule both can modify the model's initiative to '1' as per the rule on page 2.

Are you saying when it comes to the models initiative step you must then decide to either attack with the models base weapon (pile in and attack) ,or use the unweildly weapon (not pile in until initiative 1 and then attack):???

Look at the top of page 23. It says to note that situations or abilities or weapons can modify a model's initiative.

In the example given, the space marines attack first at initiative 4, then the orks at initiative 2, then the sgt. with the power fist at initiative 1.

His initiative has been modified to 1 by virtue of the power fist.

I can't find anything that says if you have a special weapon that you have to attack with it.

RAW is at each init step, pile in... it's goofy, but that's RAW for now.

And the rule at the top of page 23 says certain things "...can modify a model's initiative."

If the model's initiative has been modified to another value, like initiatve 1 for an unwieldy melee weapon, then by RAW it makes a pile-in move when the combat gets to initiative step 1.

Suppose a unit of kabalite warriors attack a unit of necron warriors that are in difficult terrain.

Would the kabalites pile in at I5 then get attacked when the necrons reach I4 and then attack when they reach I1 for charging through the terrain?

The kabalites would pile-in and attack at initiative step 1 because they are charging through terrain and do not have assault grenades.

The fact that assaulting thorough cover has modified their initiative value is further reinforced by the rule for grenades on page 61.

The rule for assault grenades says that models equipped with assault grenades don't suffer a penalty to their initiative for charging through cover.

If they do suffer the penalty, then their initiative value has been modified to the new value.

time wizard wrote:Look at the top of page 23. It says to note that situations or abilities or weapons can modify a model's initiative.

In the example given, the space marines attack first at initiative 4, then the orks at initiative 2, then the sgt. with the power fist at initiative 1.

His initiative has been modified to 1 by virtue of the power fist.

I can't find anything that says if you have a special weapon that you have to attack with it.

But how does this help in deciding what/when/where you pile in?

The rules state that I pile in and then attack. I attack at 2 different init steps. Does that mean I pile in at both init steps?

I certainly attack at those 2 different init steps. It almost looks like the rules state I move in both of these steps as well?

How do you figure you attack at 2 different initiative steps?

That's a good catch on the techmarine. I think Zogwort has a similar situation (I4 snake attacks then his at I2 or 3 if I am not mistaken). Might be others.

I think RAW you'd make pile in's at each step before making each set of attacks (between reading both the pile in rules and unwieldy rules). But I can see its not cut and dry.

The techmarine entry specifically says that the servo arm (a piece of wargear) grants a separate attack at I1.

At each initiative step, models whose initiative value are reached make pile-in moves.

The servo arm is not a model, it is a piece of wargear.

So at I1, the servo arm would make an attack, or a servo harness would make 2 attacks, but the techmarine model would not make a pile in move.

So bottom line, RAW each model piles in during its initiative step regardless of weapon used. And then attacks at initiative modified by weapon. Example you can pile in at initiative step 4 but not attack till step 1. Is that what the consensus is?

time wizard wrote:The techmarine entry specifically says that the servo arm (a piece of wargear) grants a separate attack at I1.

At each initiative step, models whose initiative value are reached make pile-in moves.

The servo arm is not a model, it is a piece of wargear.

So at I1, the servo arm would make an attack, or a servo harness would make 2 attacks, but the techmarine model would not make a pile in move.

Wow, that argument is bad. Very bad.

What the heck is a thunder hammer? It's certainly not a model. So you are saying that models don't make attacks, but their war gear does?

Also, this does not explain a character like Logan, who can decide to use some of his attacks one handed and therefore striking at i5 and some of them as a power fist and strike at i1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fixxxer76 wrote:So bottom line, RAW each model piles in during its initiative step regardless of weapon used. And then attacks at initiative modified by weapon. Example you can pile in at initiative step 4 but not attack till step 1. Is that what the consensus is?

Ummm...no. At least I don't agree completely.

It appears that war gear can modify your init for the init step phase, but not for everything. I think.

Otherwise, termies would pile in on i4 and swing on i1. Which doesn't follow the raw of the rules. I think.

imweasel wrote:

Wow, that argument is bad. Very bad.

What the heck is a thunder hammer? It's certainly not a model. So you are saying that models don't make attacks, but their war gear does?

No, the model makes the attack using the wargear.

But what are the rest saying?

That a piece of wargear like a power fist modifies a model's initiative value when it attacks but not when it piles in?

So it modifies the value but doesn't modify the value, both at the same time?

Then why do 2 separate rule on 2 different pages say that certain pieces of warger or special rules can modify a model's characteristic?

A power fist modifies the models' strength characteristic, it doubles it. It makes its cc attacks using that modified stat.

But the power fist by virtue of the unwieldy rule doesn't modify the model's initiative characteristic? Or is only partially modifies it?

No, it modifies the model's initiative stat, and that would be for pile-in moves and for attacks since both occur when a model's initiative value is reached.

I think both of you are looking at this slightly wrong.

Its the same as the fact that Jump Infantry with Hammer of Wrath don't get to pile-in at I10 and then again at normal I.

Also look at the rules for unwieldy

A model ATTACKING with this weapon does so at Initiative Step 1.

If you don't use an unwieldy weapon, you attack at normal initiative.

Your model is still normal initiative, but your attacks occur at I1. The rule does NOT effect your models initiative in any way.

Basically you pile in at your models initiative, not the initiative that you make your attacks, for Zogwart currently his Snakes go before he piles in, i guess, as he would not pile in till I2/3

Once again, it is a models initiative, not the initiative of their attacks, that allows you to pile in.

Also once again, the Servo Arm is a special rule, the attack is NOT made the same as other attacks, as it does not benefit from any bonuses or other effects the model has.

If your Techmarine is enfeebled (-1 Str) the Arm is still strength 8, if your Techmarine has furious charge, its still strength 8. Logan's rules reference the powerfist rules, which is unwieldy, once again, his attacks occur at I1, but he is not.

The models initiative is not changed by unwieldy. Only the point when your attacks occur. Pile in occurs when you reach the models INITIATIVE, not when they make their attacks.

As it is written, you use the initiative on the profile. Any rules that modify the models initiative still change it. But rules that effect when they strike do not.

But then I could be wrong.

I think its absurd that we spend this much money on GW models and they write rules (which is the whole point of buying models) that cannot be deciphered. There are sooooo many threads going on like this it makes me sick.

They should let people who are not on the design team read the rules before they are printed.

Then they would have someone who doesn't know their "studio house rules" say "What do you mean by this? This rule is really unclear."

But instead we try to figure it out on these threads.

Kiredor wrote:I think both of you are looking at this slightly wrong.

Its the same as the fact that Jump Infantry with Hammer of Wrath don't get to pile-in at I10 and then again at normal I.

Thats because HoW specifically states that you dont pile in at i10, not because the init step doesnt grant it.

Also look at the rules for unwieldy

A model ATTACKING with this weapon does so at Initiative Step 1.

If you don't use an unwieldy weapon, you attack at normal initiative.

Your model is still normal initiative, but your attacks occur at I1. The rule does NOT effect your models initiative in any way.

Basically you pile in at your models initiative, not the initiative that you make your attacks, for Zogwart currently his Snakes go before he piles in, i guess, as he would not pile in till I2/3

Once again, it is a models initiative, not the initiative of their attacks, that allows you to pile in.

Also once again, the Servo Arm is a special rule, the attack is NOT made the same as other attacks, as it does not benefit from any bonuses or other effects the model has.

If your Techmarine is enfeebled (-1 Str) the Arm is still strength 8, if your Techmarine has furious charge, its still strength 8. Logan's rules reference the powerfist rules, which is unwieldy, once again, his attacks occur at I1, but he is not.

The models initiative is not changed by unwieldy. Only the point when your attacks occur. Pile in occurs when you reach the models INITIATIVE, not when they make their attacks.

As it is written, you use the initiative on the profile. Any rules that modify the models initiative still change it. But rules that effect when they strike do not.

But then I could be wrong.

If we go by your version, some/certain models could swing BEFORE they pile in.

That makes even less sense.

Well yeah.

Jump Infantry would, otherwise they would pile in at I10 when they assault, which would be strange. (But possible? Arguments accepted!)

Basically, I don't think pile in is related to when you attack at all, just your initiative,
From my reading of it anyway.

But it could be changed, Otherwise some models would get multiple pile-ins etc.