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So a lot has been said about Rough Riders with Mogul Kamir, now that the 'rage' rule has given them extra attacks. They seem a much more viable assault unit.

But how will you use them? Counter-assault role to protect gunlines?

So, my opinion on 6th ed rough riders is thus:

I was getting all excited to start buying and painting them, and then they got worse. What, you ask? They are no longer slowed by difficult terrain. Mogul Kamir is actually really useful now with new rage. They even got hammer of wrath, for goodness sake! This is all true, but the cons outweigh the pros here.

Rough riders were so fragile, that the best way to use them was to keep them in reserve and then use them as an ultimate counterattack unit. Now, you can't put them in reserves. Even if you could, you can't charge off the board now. Now you're stuck deploying them, which means they have worse cover saves that can be focus fired around, etc. Random charge length and the loss of fleet allowing you to charge after you run mean that their reach is now greatly stunted. Then you've got overwatch to deal with. That and they now suffer from the bike problem of crashing in terrain. Meanwhile, their one real boost - Kamir, is now a single sniper rifle or plasma pistol away from not making it into close combat at all.

Really, rough riders suffer from everything that made power blobs non-viable, with added penalties. Regrettably, my long-dreampt-for rough rider project is going to be shelved, yet again.

FifteenHours wrote:So a lot has been said about Rough Riders with Mogul Kamir, now that the 'rage' rule has given them extra attacks. They seem a much more viable assault unit.

But how will you use them? Counter-assault role to protect gunlines?

Depends on my opponent. If he has DSing assault units in reserve, I'll use them to protect my rear, hiding them out of LoS. If he doesn't, I'll put them behind my gunline for counterassault. They haven't changed much in use situations from 5th, they've just gotten better at it, with the exception of killing terminators, which they're still a good enough threat for their price to make your opponent think twice.

Ailaros wrote:So, my opinion on 6th ed rough riders is thus:

I was getting all excited to start buying and painting them, and then they got worse. What, you ask? They are no longer slowed by difficult terrain. Mogul Kamir is actually really useful now with new rage. They even got hammer of wrath, for goodness sake! This is all true, but the cons outweigh the pros here.

Rough riders were so fragile, that the best way to use them was to keep them in reserve and then use them as an ultimate counterattack unit. Now, you can't put them in reserves. Even if you could, you can't charge off the board now. Now you're stuck deploying them, which means they have worse cover saves that can be focus fired around, etc. Random charge length and the loss of fleet allowing you to charge after you run mean that their reach is now greatly stunted. Then you've got overwatch to deal with. That and they now suffer from the bike problem of crashing in terrain. Meanwhile, their one real boost - Kamir, is now a single sniper rifle or plasma pistol away from not making it into close combat at all.

Really, rough riders suffer from everything that made power blobs non-viable, with added penalties. Regrettably, my long-dreampt-for rough rider project is going to be shelved, yet again.

Wait, they lost fleet? Does that mean that beasts/cavalry no longer have fleet, or do you just mean the running in the shooting phase? Loss of both sucks, but re-rolling charge distance being lost too is a harder kick than it already was.

timetowaste85 wrote:

Ailaros wrote:So, my opinion on 6th ed rough riders is thus:

I was getting all excited to start buying and painting them, and then they got worse. What, you ask? They are no longer slowed by difficult terrain. Mogul Kamir is actually really useful now with new rage. They even got hammer of wrath, for goodness sake! This is all true, but the cons outweigh the pros here.

Rough riders were so fragile, that the best way to use them was to keep them in reserve and then use them as an ultimate counterattack unit. Now, you can't put them in reserves. Even if you could, you can't charge off the board now. Now you're stuck deploying them, which means they have worse cover saves that can be focus fired around, etc. Random charge length and the loss of fleet allowing you to charge after you run mean that their reach is now greatly stunted. Then you've got overwatch to deal with. That and they now suffer from the bike problem of crashing in terrain. Meanwhile, their one real boost - Kamir, is now a single sniper rifle or plasma pistol away from not making it into close combat at all.

Really, rough riders suffer from everything that made power blobs non-viable, with added penalties. Regrettably, my long-dreampt-for rough rider project is going to be shelved, yet again.

Wait, they lost fleet? Does that mean that beasts/cavalry no longer have fleet, or do you just mean the running in the shooting phase? Loss of both sucks, but re-rolling charge distance being lost too is a harder kick than it already was.

They didn't lose fleet. They can't charge after running anymore, fleet doesn't let you do it, but the reroll to charge distance makes up for it a bit.

And it's still one of the most fragile ways to spend 145 points in the codex.

I mean, I can see, perhaps, bringing a single squad with Kamir in it, but you're certainly not going to be doing massed cavalry. A single unit of rough riders, though, is just going to get picked off by shooting before it makes much of an impact.

I have been running my with mine with 2 Flamers and having Creed have them outflank. Now with the change to Rapid Fire I might give them; Grenade Launchers, Melta Guns or Plasma Guns. With there speed they might make decent light flankers and Transport Hunters.

Ailaros wrote:Meanwhile, their one real boost - Kamir, is now a single sniper rifle or plasma pistol away from not making it into close combat at all.

If Kamir's an IC he'll get a 2+ "Look Out Sir!" save even against directed attacks. That 2+ LOS! makes ICs very tough to kill if they're in a unit. You either have to get lucky or just shoot through the rest of the meat first.

Ailaros wrote:And it's still one of the most fragile ways to spend 145 points in the codex.

I mean, I can see, perhaps, bringing a single squad with Kamir in it, but you're certainly not going to be doing massed cavalry. A single unit of rough riders, though, is just going to get picked off by shooting before it makes much of an impact.

Why are you leaving your rough riders in LOS of the enemy? Why aren't you using Look Out, Sir to protect Kamir?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anpu42 wrote:I have been running my with mine with 2 Flamers and having Creed have them outflank. Now with the change to Rapid Fire I might give them; Grenade Launchers, Melta Guns or Plasma Guns. With there speed they might make decent light flankers and Transport Hunters.

Creed cannot give RRs outflank, as they are not infantry or vehicles.

@Ailaros:

I read your article. What struck me is that you think grenade launchers were "useless before, and are now extremely useless."

A little off topic, but how is that exactly?

Indarys wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:I have been running my with mine with 2 Flamers and having Creed have them outflank. Now with the change to Rapid Fire I might give them; Grenade Launchers, Melta Guns or Plasma Guns. With there speed they might make decent light flankers and Transport Hunters.

Creed cannot give RRs outflank, as they are not infantry or vehicles.

Well I have been doing wrong; with the change to Assaulting out of Reserves I was going to stop doing that anyways, so no big.

Shadelkan wrote:@Ailaros:

I read your article. What struck me is that you think grenade launchers were "useless before, and are now extremely useless."

A little off topic, but how is that exactly?

Actually with Hull Points and the Rough Riders Mobility, it might be worth it to take them.

I've been an advocate of rough riders since I started using guard in third edition.

I've been fielding them almost every single game I've played, even in tournaments.

That being said, I'm still going to, and I'll be modelling a Mogul Kamir rider within the next week or so.

I also plan to use 30 of them in the first five games or so to judge their effectiveness. I'm not big on theoreticals when it comes to the effectiveness of units in the codex.

I'm more of a "Knowledge through experience, experience through action" kind of guy.

I just love RR's.I even went out and bought death korps Riders because they are so awesome ,,,, but ... RR biggest problem is that they compete for a fast slot vs vendettas.
I see my self with 2 flyers and a 6-7 man squad of RR's with mogur in them.
Dont forget that your enemy can only ever kill as many riders he can see.If you place your models behind 2 chimeras i think they'll be safe.

Amerikon wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Meanwhile, their one real boost - Kamir, is now a single sniper rifle or plasma pistol away from not making it into close combat at all.

If Kamir's an IC he'll get a 2+ "Look Out Sir!" save even against directed attacks. That 2+ LOS! makes ICs very tough to kill if they're in a unit. You either have to get lucky or just shoot through the rest of the meat first.

Kamir isn't an independent character, so he only gets a 4+ LOS roll.

Still, if you keep him at the back, you shouldn't have to make that roll until the unit is nearly gone anyway.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Still, if you keep him at the back, you shouldn't have to make that roll until the unit is nearly gone anyway.

Which is a task that's now easier to accomplish than before. Infinitely so if you were using them to charge from reserves.

Indarys wrote:Why are you leaving your rough riders in LOS of the enemy?

Where is this endless supply of LOS blocking terrain coming from? I might never take a casualty again...

Seriously, it's not going to be hard to draw a bead on at least some of them most of the time, especially if you're bringing more than one squad, or have other things competing for LOS blocking terrain (like artillery).

Meanwhile, when it's finally time to strike, you have to move around terrain to prevent crashing, and you have to roll for assault range. Rerollabe, yes, but still not predictable. Fail the charge and the riders are officially done. Plus, you're still going to have to deal with overwatch, which, against squishy, squishy rough riders will actually be an issue.

It seems like rough riders have been relegated to a very narrow counterattack role that has to be used in just a certain way (attacking stuff already in close combat deep in your deployment zone). They got more fragile, and they got more limited. You didn't see many before, and now that you're worse, you'll be seeing fewer now.

So basically the main problem is getting the RR into assault in the first place?

With a 95 point base cost (with Mogul Kamir) it still seems like a fairly cheap albeit squishy unit. If you take 10, that's 145 points which admittedly makes them much more expensive and thus a liability...

I don't know, maybe I am just not facing facts in my disappointment? I wanted them to be usable with the new rules. But I just can't see how you'd keep them alive long enough to use them. Sure, keeping them in cover is obvious, but it's high-risk. Worth the risk? I don't know.

Guess we'll know for sure when people start testing them out with the 6th ed rules.

I'll take a Vendetta for 130 instead. With no skyfire other then Hydras and fortifications fliers are awesome.

Rough Riders got screwed by the can't assault when arriving from reserve and snap fire rules.

Now if Rough Riders were cheaper and the special character made them troops then maybe as a counter assault unit that would hide behind your main force.

FifteenHours wrote:So basically the main problem is getting the RR into assault in the first place?

Right. They got a lot harder to use, and a lot easier for your opponent to counter.

FifteenHours wrote:With a 95 point base cost (with Mogul Kamir) it still seems like a fairly cheap albeit squishy unit.

... that wouldn't ever get to attack unengaged units. Seriously, if you're charging this against a tac squad with a flamer, you're not even going to survive overwatch, and that's if a heavy bolter didn't single-handedly gun them down before they got there.

FifteenHours wrote:Guess we'll know for sure when people start testing them out with the 6th ed rules.

... well, there's nothing new that's going to be learned that can't be reasoned through beforehand. Playtime will certainly lend the theory data points, but induction won't overturn theories which are already based on plain fact.

Ailaros wrote:

FifteenHours wrote:Guess we'll know for sure when people start testing them out with the 6th ed rules.

... well, there's nothing new that's going to be learned that can't be reasoned through beforehand. Playtime will certainly lend the theory data points, but induction won't overturn theories which are already based on plain fact.

You cannot know something for sure until you've tried it yourself. You can use deductive reasoning all you want, but you will never know the absolute truth until you've put that unit to the field a fair number of times and tried using it different ways. Ive used ever single unit option in the guard codex at least three times. I now know what works and what doesn't work for my play style and the way units synergize with each other.

I encourage all new players to try out every unit in their codices to see what fits them best. And I also encourage experienced players to at least try units once when a new edition comes out to see if things have changed at all. Thinking about theoretical situations such as availability of terrain, reduced cover saves, and random charge distances is fine and dandy but you won't know for sure until you've actually put the model down on the field and give it a test run.

I normally agree with what you say. Your website is fantastic by the way. I couldn't draw myself away from it until I looked at every article including your battle reports. And sadly I would have to agree that power blobs are indeed dead.

However this is one of those times I don't agree. So Fifteenhours, try rough riders out. They are not for everyone, but they are for some (like myself) and don't simply accept what you read on forums. At most, you should only ever consider what you read here. Don't take it as the absolute truth.

Ignatius wrote:You cannot know something for sure until you've tried it yourself. You can use deductive reasoning all you want, but you will never know the absolute truth until you've put that unit to the field a fair number of times and tried using it different ways.

The problem with induction, though, is that it brings a huge amount of subjectivity into your theory. You are only going to have a tiny number of data points with a massive number of uncontrollable variables. Were 40k a real science, perhaps, but as it's not, induction gets you nothing.

Ailaros wrote:

Indarys wrote:Why are you leaving your rough riders in LOS of the enemy?

Where is this endless supply of LOS blocking terrain coming from? I might never take a casualty again...

Seriously, it's not going to be hard to draw a bead on at least some of them most of the time, especially if you're bringing more than one squad, or have other things competing for LOS blocking terrain (like artillery).

Meanwhile, when it's finally time to strike, you have to move around terrain to prevent crashing, and you have to roll for assault range. Rerollabe, yes, but still not predictable. Fail the charge and the riders are officially done. Plus, you're still going to have to deal with overwatch, which, against squishy, squishy rough riders will actually be an issue.

It seems like rough riders have been relegated to a very narrow counterattack role that has to be used in just a certain way (attacking stuff already in close combat deep in your deployment zone). They got more fragile, and they got more limited. You didn't see many before, and now that you're worse, you'll be seeing fewer now.

Endless supply? It's not that hard to stick your squad behind a tank, you know. And there's little reason to ever bring more than one squad, as they're competing with more useful FA slots, and are there as part of a layered anti-assault strategy.

Rolling for assault range, especially with the reroll, is very reliable. You can safely bet on having an 18 inch threat bubble at least, especially if you have been hiding them behind a tank that you move out of the way to clear the assault line. Overwatch isn't a big deal, as you're not using them to assault a gunline or something--you're assaulting the enemies own assault troops, which generally don't have heavy weapons with them. Even if a few die, the added attacks from Kamir will more than make up for the 2-3 lost riders, and after the first attack they've done their job anyway.

As far as your role, RRs are the same as they've always been--a defensive assault unit that stops all your guardsmen from being wrecked by anything that looks at them funny in CC, or to stop deep striking assault troops from killing your tanks and artillery in the rear. For 100 points, they're phenomenal at that role, and as they're staying in the rear anyway, have the mobility to cover the majority of your rear line. They got better at that role with the buffs to Kamir, and they were already really good at it, and it's a role IG sorely needs filled.

Rough Riders are as fast as before, more deadly than before and essentially fill the same role as before.

So My question is this: Is the old FOC argument enough to stop you from doing it? I mean, now that IG Gunlines are so good, you need a lot less to protect them and the Fast Attack choices, while excellent for Guard, may just simply not be necessary in 6E like they were before. Good yes, necessary no.

The FOC argument only matters if you feel compelled to use those other Fast Attackers.

Another thing to at least consider:

One of the missions makes them scoring units. Many of the Fast Attack Slots that you COULD use are not going to help you in that mission. Vehicles are clearly no longer going to be the LolFest they were when it comes to squatting objectives. So perhaps the missions themselves have changed what might be considered favorable now?

Jancoran wrote:Rough Riders are as fast as before, more deadly than before and essentially fill the same role as before.

So My question is this: Is the old FOC argument enough to stop you from doing it? I mean, now that IG Gunlines are so good, you need a lot less to protect them and the Fast Attack choices, while excellent for Guard, may just simply not be necessary in 6E like they were before. Good yes, necessary no.

The FOC argument only matters if you feel compelled to use those other Fast Attackers.

Another thing to at least consider:

One of the missions makes them scoring units. Many of the Fast Attack Slots that you COULD use are not going to help you in that mission. Vehicles are clearly no longer going to be the LolFest they were when it comes to squatting objectives. So perhaps the missions themselves have changed what might be considered favorable now?

With the 2nd FOC at 2,000 that opens up extra Slots for them.
The Scouring Mission could make then a very vital for late game Objective taking.

Like I said early I am rethinking my usage of them. I might put them in reserves and/or run them up one side as a flanking unit with a pair of Plasma Guns for Monstrous Creatures/Light Anti-Armor Work. With their Hunting Lances I can take out most Transports in a charge and if I get lucky and surround the Transport wipe out its passengers. Even after the 1st charge I will still have the Krak Grenades and a Melta Bomb in the Sergeants Hands.
Why Plasma:
1. I just like Plasma.
2. Plasma’s ability to Glance most Armor to Death, with 2 Plasma Guns and a Plasma Pistol I have a chance to inflict up to 5 Wounds/Hull Points on Monstrous Creatures/Vehicles.
3. Plasma Guns will get me to think twice before charging into a unit.

I think they will come into their own in this Edition as a Hammer when you need.

Anpu42 wrote:

Jancoran wrote:Rough Riders are as fast as before, more deadly than before and essentially fill the same role as before.

So My question is this: Is the old FOC argument enough to stop you from doing it? I mean, now that IG Gunlines are so good, you need a lot less to protect them and the Fast Attack choices, while excellent for Guard, may just simply not be necessary in 6E like they were before. Good yes, necessary no.

The FOC argument only matters if you feel compelled to use those other Fast Attackers.

Another thing to at least consider:

One of the missions makes them scoring units. Many of the Fast Attack Slots that you COULD use are not going to help you in that mission. Vehicles are clearly no longer going to be the LolFest they were when it comes to squatting objectives. So perhaps the missions themselves have changed what might be considered favorable now?

With the 2nd FOC at 2,000 that opens up extra Slots for them.
The Scouring Mission could make then a very vital for late game Objective taking.

Like I said early I am rethinking my usage of them. I might put them in reserves and/or run them up one side as a flanking unit with a pair of Plasma Guns for Monstrous Creatures/Light Anti-Armor Work. With their Hunting Lances I can take out most Transports in a charge and if I get lucky and surround the Transport wipe out its passengers. Even after the 1st charge I will still have the Krak Grenades and a Melta Bomb in the Sergeants Hands.
Why Plasma:
1. I just like Plasma.
2. Plasma’s ability to Glance most Armor to Death, with 2 Plasma Guns and a Plasma Pistol I have a chance to inflict up to 5 Wounds/Hull Points on Monstrous Creatures/Vehicles.
3. Plasma Guns will get me to think twice before charging into a unit.

I think they will come into their own in this Edition as a Hammer when you need.

If you aren't giving them Hunting Lances, then you're wasting points, IMHO.
2 plasma guns aren't going to help a whole lot. And if you need 2 more plasma guns that bad,
give them to a Stromtrooper squad. They won't compete with the Vendettas.

For the longest time I would have Creed give them Outflank; but I recently found out I could not. That is when I had them with a pair a Flamers. That made them great for crushing one unit. The problem is that made them a “One Hit Wonder”.
I usually was able to get a full charge with them and just Crush ONE unit and then after the fight I would just bounce off Marines even on the Charge. I would hit a 5 Man Devastator Unit and then get locked into combat until I finally broke and quickly run off the board.
Now I actually use my Rough Riders as Flankers [Not the Outflank rule] and just run up the side of the battle. I used have them with Grenade Launchers [I still may go back to them] and keep behind cover and tried to get into the rear of the battle field wile my opponent dodged Pie. The Grenade Launcher Krak Grenades did ok vs. vs. the side of Rhinos and Ork Trucks. Now that I have accesses to 24” Mobile Plasma I might give that a try for a little bit and see how that goes, getting a +1 on the Damage Rolls is not bad.
With Pre-Measure I can check to see how far away a unit is. If it is 8”-12” away I would put out 4 Plasma shots into the side of a Rhino or Ork Truck and have a chance of “Popping” it. If I am closer than 8” I can Assault it with S5 Attacks [S6 with Creed] plus the Sergeant’s Melta Bombs and also have a good chance of “Popping” it and if you get a good Assault Roll you can have the doors covered and you now have a Dead Transport and Marine Squad. I have done this before; it’s not as hard as you think to pull off from the Flank Position.
Now with being able to use your Krak Grenades and Melta Bombs on MC’s the principle is basically the same.

I just wish I could exchange there Las Pistols with Las Guns.

As far as competing with Valkyrie, Vendettas and Sentinels; we usually run 2,000 point games and now I have 6 Fast Attack Spots available.

Indarys wrote: It's not that hard to stick your squad behind a tank, you know.

Let's return to reality here. Let's say that you're wanting to hide 10 rough riders behind a russ.



As you can clearly see, even in this case, your opponent in the worst possible position can still target nearly half of them on a per-base basis. But what about less ideal situations? The following was taken at a 45 degree angle:



How many of the models can you see? All of them. And that's even with the rather serious disadvantage of height, as cadian models are only, at absolute best, 2/3ds the height of proper rough riders. Half of the riders will certainly get cover saves (all 5+ of it, assuming that your opponent doesn't focus fire on the guys with no cover saves), but to paint the russ as a magic LOS obscuring fairy machine is simply not accurate.

Indarys wrote: Rolling for assault range, especially with the reroll, is very reliable.

You're rolling dice, how is that reliable?

The average roll here is a 7. You must take the reroll even if it's worse. Are you going to reroll a charge range of 7? What about a reroll of a 6?

Yes, you could just always reroll if you're out of range, but there is absolutely no guarantee whatsoever that you're going to get it properly. If you're 9" away at the charge, even with the reroll, the odds of you getting there is still less than HALF. That's not reliable.

Which is bad, given that if you fail, you're now right in front, out of cover, facing bolters or worse.

Indarys wrote: As far as your role, RRs are the same as they've always been--a defensive assault unit that stops all your guardsmen from being wrecked by anything that looks at them funny in CC, or to stop deep striking assault troops from killing your tanks and artillery in the rear. For 100 points, they're phenomenal at that role

Correction, they WERE phenomenal in this role. That was because you had a way of guaranteeing that they never got shot at before they charged with their lances. Now you don't. Now you're living in a world where you've got to deploy them on the table and watch them die like 10 easy to squish guardsmen, which is really the problem, here, not...

Jancoran wrote:Rough Riders are as fast as before, more deadly than before and essentially fill the same role as before.

Yes, they're deadlier, but they're way, way, way more fragile than they are deadly in this edition.

In 5th ed, if your opponent didn't want to get charged by rough riders, they had to stay on their half of the board and not advance any closer until the riders showed up from reserves (at which point, they may have blown half the game just wallowing around on their side). Now, if they want to stop your rough riders, they just need to throw a single barrage weapon at them, or shoot them with some slightly obliquely angled heavy bolters.

And their threat level, of course, is still pretty huge. If you were facing off against an opponent who was bringing a unit that could seriously trash something in close combat, but only needed a little bit of firepower to wipe out (or send packing off the board with a failed morale check), it would be basically at THE TOP of your target list. There's no way to keep them safe when they're that big of a target while being that fragile of a unit.

Yes, I suppose that does mean that your opponent isn't shooting that whirlwind or typhoon speeder at something else, but firstly, given how fragile they are, your opponent isn't going to need to waste very much firepower to handle them. They're not surviving long enough to be a proper distraction. Secondly, if you're going to tell me that spending 100 points on a distraction (or nearly 150 with kamir), then I'll laugh and spend those points on a basilisk or a russ or a drop pod dread or a termicide unit, or whatever and then use those points to EASILY wipe out those riders and then still have the durability and killing power to be able to handle a bunch of other stuff too.

Because, honestly, "your opponent has to kill them sometime" isn't really much of a sales pitch for them.

---

But that's not all about their fragility. Consider this.

Assuming that, for some miraculous reason, your opponent completely failed to fire a single shot at your rough riders (which is very, very unlikely), but put their target in cover, a 10x tac squad with a flamer and missile launcher will see 1.6 rough riders killed by difficult terrain followed by 2.8 killed by overwatch (let's assume the flamer rolled a 2 on a D3). That's half the squad, and your opponent did literally nothing before it was too late. If they would have bothered to double-tap the bolters even once at the riders, they wouldn't even make it to the first lance attack most of the time.

Now, let's assume that they shot once out to 24" and give your riders the benefit of being in cover (that they don't need to, say, ride around next turn). Assuming the missile launcher hits a paltry two riders, that marine squad is going to kill 3.2 of them. With literally the most minimal effort required, rough riders are going to be killed down to slightly fewer than 3 models on average. The three rough riders attack 6 times, hit 3, and 2.5 marines die, the remainder of whom easily dispatch the riders.

That's 105 point to kill 40 points of marines played by one of the dumbest marine commanders hypothetical situations can field.

They're just too fragile to put down anywhere near all of their killing power down.

hang on i know the reserves rule has been nerfed but thats no reason not to keep them in reserve yes they will not get an assault 1st turn they arrive but by this stage in the game unless you are playing tau the eneny will be looking to engage in CC furthermore both sides HW firepower will be reduced significantly also if you use RR in conjunction with snipers e.g ratlings you can drop the heavy wepons from the squad before the charge ratlings soften em up RR knock em down. By the time your RR have turned up the enemy is commited to an assault more likely than not against your blobs. furthermore as stated earlier these boys wont be going after tac squads with HW they will be going after specialist assault troops like stormboyz jumptroopers etc its allabout picking your targets and giving them cover firr that first charge could turn the tide of the battle even if it comes in turn 4 or even 5

But what's the point of keeping them in reserves? Regardless of what you do, you're now spending a turn subject to your opponent's killing power? Yes, your opponent will be slightly closer to you (which is actually bad, as now you'll be more likely to be in double tap range or to get assaulted before they get to use their lances on a charge of their own). Yes, your opponent will be more hurt before they get shot at (but it still takes so little to wipe them out).

In the end, though, reserves or not, you've got to give your opponent a chance to handle an extremely fragile unit before you get to attack with them, and that's before you count all the free goodies units defending against rough riders now get.

its a fair point but im still gonna give em a whirl see how they do.


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furthermore if you had several HWT a 30 man infantry squad packing HW and a pair of valks are you going to shoot the rough riders or the valks and HW tearing your armour up or the 10 horseman who've just popped up overwatch is a problem but at BS1 its not that much of a problem especially if you've picked off the plasma melta flamers, in the squad

Looks like RRs have fallen into a dedicated counter assault role. Keep them safe behind a building and then charge into combats that your infantry are stuck in. Not an awesome use but I think an actual useful one. You would probably be better off just bringing more guns though. They may have an objective grabber role in The Scouring, but taking a unit that is good 1/6 times isn't great.

I really like my riders but I always used to charge from reserve. Same with Al'rahem, but at least he can obliterate something with shooting.