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This would be in reference, for example, logan and a techmarine with harness, etc...

Discuss!

Also, at what init in the first round of combat do banshees fight/pile in at if armed with power axes?

Discuss!

Also, at what init do gk's armed with halberds fight and pile in at?

Discuss!

Codex Trumps BRB so the banshee's will strike at I10 in the first round of combat.

All models fight when they pile in, as p.23 equates initiative step for fighting and for pile in moves.

You are told to pile in at your init step, so if you strike at I5 and at I1 you make two pile in moves.

You charge, and then pile in on your initiative step, which would be when you make your attacks. So axes pile in at Initiative 1. Then at the end of combat there is another pile in move. so y es, two pile ins. I don't know how halberds rule, I don't have the GK dex. If they're axes, they're initiative 1, if they have special rules you use those instead.

Halberds strike at I+2

Due to the ambiguous wording I am of the opinion that pile in and striking can be done at separate initiative steps. For example, a Howling Banshee with a power axe would pile in at Initiative 10 (in the first round of combat) but would not be able to strike until Init 1 (due to unwieldy).

DeathReaper wrote:Halberds strike at I+2

Then I would assume they pile in at Initiative 6, since they're not technically axes. But that is something you might want to check me on, since it's rather unclear and I haven't read all of the erratas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:Due to the ambiguous wording I am of the opinion that pile in and striking can be done at separate initiative steps. For example, a Howling Banshee with a power axe would pile in at Initiative 10 (in the first round of combat) but would not be able to strike until Init 1 (due to unwieldy).

Maybe, but even then I can't think of an instance where that would make a huge impact on the fight. They charge, pile in, get hit, then strike or they charge, get hit, then pile in and strike? Would it really make that much of a difference? Why not just pile in when you strike. Makes more logical sense that way.

From my reading of the rules, you would pile in at the step equal to the models initiative.

Halberds would strike 2 steps before they pile in

Unwieldy would strike at I1 but pile in at their normal initiative.

Anything that modifies your base I, such as Howling Banshees on the charge, would change when you pile in.

But things that modify when you ATTACK would not. Due to the difference in wording.

However it is something I am willing to be proven wrong about.

Kiredor wrote:From my reading of the rules, you would pile in at the step equal to the models initiative.

Halberds would strike 2 steps before they pile in

Unwieldy would strike at I1 but pile in at their normal initiative.

Anything that modifies your base I, such as Howling Banshees on the charge, would change when you pile in.

But things that modify when you ATTACK would not. Due to the difference in wording.

However it is something I am willing to be proven wrong about.

Perhaps, but that just seems overly complicated. And the example provided on page 23 doesn't go out of it's way to try and explain it that way. It would be easier to just pile in when your initiative attacks, and makes more sense. I know the spirit of the game isn't a very solid argument, but it just seems like an over complication of what was intended to be simple.

DeathReaper wrote:Codex Trumps BRB so the banshee's will strike at I10 in the first round of combat.

Nope. Banshee Mask doesn't say when to swing, it says what their Initiative is. And Unwieldy doesn't care what your initiative is, you swing at I1.

imweasel wrote:This would be in reference, for example, logan and a techmarine with harness, etc...

Discuss!

Also, at what init in the first round of combat do banshees fight/pile in at if armed with power axes?

Discuss!

Also, at what init do gk's armed with halberds fight and pile in at?

Discuss!

Pile in and attacking are 2 separate rules.

1. You pile in your Initiative (base one) for Banshees =I10 due to masks,
2. You attack when you reach your initiative step, for Banshees =I1 due to unwieldy rule Page 42.
Unwieldy makes you to ATTACK at initiative step 1. Attack not pile in.



CLARIFICATION: PAGE 429 ASSAULT PHASE SUMMARY

DarknessEternal wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Codex Trumps BRB so the banshee's will strike at I10 in the first round of combat.

Nope. Banshee Mask doesn't say when to swing, it says what their Initiative is. And Unwieldy doesn't care what your initiative is, you swing at I1.

This. Banshees are just as slow with axes as everyone else.

DarknessEternal wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Codex Trumps BRB so the banshee's will strike at I10 in the first round of combat.

Nope. Banshee Mask doesn't say when to swing, it says what their Initiative is. And Unwieldy doesn't care what your initiative is, you swing at I1.

I guess it depends on the exact wording of "Banshee Mask"

I do not own the dex.

But if it just sets the models initiative to 10 then unwieldy would be more specific and they would pile in and swing at Initiative 1.

god.ra wrote:
Pile in and attacking are 2 separate rules.

1. You pile in your Initiative (base one) for Banshees =I10 due to masks,
2. You attack when you reach your initiative step, for Banshees =I1 due to unwieldy rule Page 42.
Unwieldy makes you to ATTACK at initiative step 1. Attack not pile in.



CLARIFICATION: PAGE 429 ASSAULT PHASE SUMMARY

That does indeed clear it up. Though for clarification on the original question in the title, you pile in at your initiative step, and after the combat, everyone piles in again, so there are two pile ins.

Banshees run up and then time slows down as they swing their axes.

eje005 wrote:

god.ra wrote:
Pile in and attacking are 2 separate rules.

1. You pile in your Initiative (base one) for Banshees =I10 due to masks,
2. You attack when you reach your initiative step, for Banshees =I1 due to unwieldy rule Page 42.
Unwieldy makes you to ATTACK at initiative step 1. Attack not pile in.



CLARIFICATION: PAGE 429 ASSAULT PHASE SUMMARY

That does indeed clear it up. Though for clarification on the original question in the title, you pile in at your initiative step, and after the combat, everyone piles in again, so there are two pile ins.

You are not getting my question.

Logan can have attacks at two different initiatives, 5 and 1. I know he gets to pile in at the end. What I was asking, does logan pile in at init 5 and init 1?

The unwieldy rule does not modify HIS Initiative.

He piles in at his Initiative.

imweasel wrote:
You are not getting my question.

Logan can have attacks at two different initiatives, 5 and 1. I know he gets to pile in at the end. What I was asking, does logan pile in at init 5 and init 1?

From what I've gathered in this and other threads, attacking and piling in are separate. He piles in at his natural initiative, and what ever the weapons he attacks with make their attacks at the correct step listed (him at 5, the harness at 1). He only piles in once.


As far as the banshee masks go, the Codex says they're Initiative 10 for the first round. Axes don't change their initiative, it just makes them strike at step 1. So at step 10 the Banshees pile in, and at step 1 they attack with axes.

Kiredor wrote:The unwieldy rule does not modify HIS Initiative.

He piles in at his Initiative.

The rules on P.22 and 23 equate the two.

From P.22 "a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat."

The summary helps clear this up:

Starting at Initiative step 10, count down through the steps towards 1 until you reach anlnitiative value that one or more participants not involved in a challenge have (see page 22).

All models with this Initiative value now Pile In (see page 23).

All engaged models (see page 23) with this Initiative now get to make a number of Attacks equal to their Attacks characteristic plus any bonus Attacks they are entitled to (see page 24).

This shows that the two are synonymous. Pile in moves and striking are done at the same initiative value. So if you strike at I1 you pile in at I1.

No, because if we follow that rule, then any model with a powerfist or axe or hammer is ALWAYS INITIATIVE 1.

The summary does not include any references to special rules that modify the steps.

Therefore the summary is moot.

Models pile in at the inititiative step EQUAL TO THEIR INITIATIVE.

A model with an unwieldy weapon is NEVER I1.

Kiredor wrote:No, because if we follow that rule, then any model with a powerfist or axe or hammer is ALWAYS INITIATIVE 1.

The summary does not include any references to special rules that modify the steps.

Therefore the summary is moot.

Models pile in at the inititiative step EQUAL TO THEIR INITIATIVE.

A model with an unwieldy weapon is NEVER I1.

The rules say that models make their attacks 'when their initiative step is reached'. This is precisely the same terminology as used for initiative step pile-ins. Sure the rules for 'who can fight' mention that 'certain situations, abilities and weapons can modify a model's Initiative', but this doesn't say *anything* about models striking at a different I value.

It is a disconnect between the assault rules and what we actually have for text on weapons, etc. This is especially a problem because if you have models striking at different times then when they make their pile-in moves then your opponent is just going to pull models as casualties to deny those models from striking.

So for example, with your interpretation, a model with a powerfist would still pile-in at I4 (for example), but then wouldn't strike until I1. Now his opponent when resolving casualties from other I4 attacks is going to do their damnedest (which isn't hard) to remove all the models in B2B contact with the I1 guys, which means when the I1 step rolls around they wouldn't be able to attack (because they wouldn't get to plie-in again).


The rules are very clearly written (IMHO) to have the models pile-in during the steps they are going to swing. If they are able to strike at more than one step, then they pile-in at each step.

Kiredor wrote:No, because if we follow that rule, then any model with a powerfist or axe or hammer is ALWAYS INITIATIVE 1.

Not true. Since a Unwieldy weapon only strikes at I1, it does not modify your initiative at any time outside of when it could strike (for example, Sweeping Advance).

What happens when casualties mean a squad has only one model out of 5 that can reach, but that model is unwieldy? Suddenly you can stop a squad ever attacking by hitting it in the right place. (and doing enough damage).

Both are strategic decisions, not problems with the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rigeld, except that Initiative is the same as initiative step, at least the way its being defined.

Thus if your initiative step is 1, your Initiative is 1,

You can't pick and choose if you want them to be synonymous.

Kiredor wrote:You can't pick and choose if you want them to be synonymous.

... I'm not.

A model attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative step 1,unless it is a Monstrous Creature or a Walker.

If I'm doing a Sweeping Advance, I'm not attacking - therefore my init isn't modified.
If I'm attacking, it's modified.
If I'm wandering around scratching my nose with my powerfist, I do so at my normal initiative.

So Initiative and Initiative Step are synonymous in assault?

Then Banshees get to roll off whether or not they are I10 and I1, as they are I10 in the first turn of an assault, but attack at I1,

since these are now synonymous, it can be either. right?

Being unwieldy they will strike at I1 even though they have banshee masks.

Unwieldy is more specific because they strike at I1 even though they are I10 (Not unlike a SM Sarge with a power fist, I4, but strikes at I1).

But Initiative and Initiative Step are the same?

Pile In references Initiative, so would you use 10 or 1?

Because the model is I10, but also Attacks at step 1.

If a model's initiative is determined by the step it attacks, then they are I1, not I10, so there you have conflicting rules.

Edit: I think I'm just confused because they use different definititions for Pile In, Initiative and Initiative Step, and I feel they wouldn't have if they hadn't meant them to be different.
Maybe I give them too much credit?

Anyway, I'll step away from this now.

A Space Marine Sarge with a power fist has an I of 4, yet he strikes at I1, how is that different than the Banshee mask issue?

DR, because a special rule makes them I10, and another makes them I1, which one takes precedence.

If Initiative Step and Initiative are the same thing, they both happen at the same time.

(I don't agree with this idea, but it follows your logic)

Anyway, I'll play Pile In and Initiative Step as being the same, all it changes is strategy.

Kiredor wrote:DR, because a special rule makes them I10, and another makes them I1, which one takes precedence.

If Initiative Step and Initiative are the same thing, they both happen at the same time.

(I don't agree with this idea, but it follows your logic)

Anyway, I'll play Pile In and Initiative Step as being the same, all it changes is strategy.

This is my issue as well. I will also include that I dont think that gw ever wanted you to make 2 pile in moves.

However, the jury is still deliberating, I think...

If they are using the axes they have to strike at I1, as that is what the axes say, regardless of the initiative of the model.