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DeathReaper wrote:If they are using the axes they have to strike at I1, as that is what the axes say, regardless of the initiative of the model.

Simply because masks make you init 10 and not strike at init 10?

The problem I have with Death Reapers argument is that it makes Pile In, Initiative, Initiative Step, and the point at which you make your attacks all the same thing.

If this is the case, anything that changes any one of these, changes them all. (in Assaults).

Since Banshee Masks change your Initiative to 10, it must also change your Pile In, Initiative Step, and the point where you make your attacks.

Since unwieldy changes the point you make your attacks Initiative 1, it must also change your pile in, initiative step, and Initiative. Thus both rules modify the same factors in the same way.

Otherwise they are not synonymous. Which means Unwieldy does not change a models Initiative, Pile In, or Initiative Step.

So its one way or the other, logically.

(If i'm missing something, or misinterpreting something, point it out, this is just how I read DR's argument)

I definitely think you'd be giving GW too much credit in assuming that 'striking at IX' is most certainly different than just the model's modified Initiative for the purposes of swinging in combat. All you have to do is look at the Necron FAQ, which equates the I10 boost from a Banshee Mask as a set Initiative value the same way that Whip Coils modify Initiative, despite the fact that Banshee Mask wording reads like it is modifying the model's actual Initiative even though Whip Coils clearly make the model 'count as' having an Initiative of 1 (which should be two different concepts).


Frankly, I'm not even really concerned with the minutiae of the text with the pile-in rules because I don't think it stands up to close scrutiny. Instead, I'm just looking at it from the perspective of: What is the whole point of having models pile-in at every Initiative step? There really is only one plausible explanation and that is: because wound allocation now pulls the models out of B2B first now (and then works its way back) this rule was introduced as a way to continually get more models back into base to base so that they can make their attacks.

So to come up with the position that GW secretly wanted there to be situations where models pile-in early and then sit there hoping to get a chance to swing when their attacks are made at I1 with their unwieldy weapons is kind of just absurd. If this was supposedly something they wanted to happen, it surely would have been made a point somewhere in some example, because frankly it goes against the whole common sense purpose for having models piling in at different initiative steps in the first place (to get models into base contact so that they can swing).

Therefore, IMHO models that strike at different Initiative steps can and must pile-in each time they're about to swing...not when the model's unmodified Initiative is and then hope they're still in contact.

Yakface.

I was thinking of it in the sense that the models all move as one unit, no matter what their personal initiatives is, so that you don't have issues with models Piling In when they can't even get within 2" of another model to maintain coherency. (if they pile in at I1 when their whole unit piled in at I10, for example).

But that's not the issue, so I'll agree that the sensible way to play it will be that you pile in at the same step you attack. Partially because that seems easier, and also partially because if I can't convince any of the multiple people I've argued this point with, its probably something in MY argument, not the people.

Kiredor wrote:Yakface.

I was thinking of it in the sense that the models all move as one unit, no matter what their personal initiatives is, so that you don't have issues with models Piling In when they can't even get within 2" of another model to maintain coherency. (if they pile in at I1 when their whole unit piled in at I10, for example).

But that's not the issue, so I'll agree that the sensible way to play it will be that you pile in at the same step you attack. Partially because that seems easier, and also partially because if I can't convince any of the multiple people I've argued this point with, its probably something in MY argument, not the people.

No, the problem is the rules.

You're fine.

Still some issues with conga lines and managing to break off combat and win combat res.

Thats pretty wierd as well.

These are all direct from the rulebook (cut and paste even)

any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move
(You pile in at your initiative step)

A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
• During its Initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemy models. etc...
(you check for engagement at your initiative step

Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached,
(You attack at your initiative step)

So,the rules say that you pile in, check engagement, and attack, all on your initiative step. The *only* way to follow all of these rules, is if the PFist sgt has an initiative step of 1



Further, I see nothing in the rules saying you can only pile in once... so if you attack twice you should pile in twice. (and I think that makes more sense, and causes fewer issues also.

I agree that you get multiple pile-ins if you have multiple valid init's that could attack in a combat. IE, pfist sarge is init 4 but cant attack at init 4, so only piles in at init 1. Techmarine on the other hand actually fights at init 4 and also init 1, so gets 2 pile-ins if he is not in base.

Per my understanding of the rules, I believe that after the assaulting unit has made their charge move, each model (in the assaulting unit first, then assaulted unit second) would:

pile in (if necessary) at the Initiative step modified by it's Melee Weapon
fight at this modified Initiative step
allocate wounds at this Initiative step and resolve casualty removal

I say "... pile in (if necessary)..." per the START OF INITIATIVE STEP PILE IN section, p 23, first sentance.

That being said, in response to the original questions:

1: you get to pile in twice if you are allowed to make some attacks at one Initiative step and the remaining attacks at a later Initiative step
2: Banshees armed with Power Axes would Pile in and fight at I1
3: since, per p 61 a Halberd is an Axe, and per p 54 of the GK codex a model armed with a Halberd stikes at I + 2, a GK armed with a Halberd strikes at I3

Since Logan Grimnar is allowed to allocate his attacks as he sees fit between the two modes allowed by The Axe Morkai, he would follow the rules for Pile in and attack at each of his Initiative steps.

Scott wrote:Per my understanding of the rules, I believe that after the assaulting unit has made their charge move, each model (in the assaulting unit first, then assaulted unit second) would:

pile in (if necessary) at the Initiative step modified by it's Melee Weapon
fight at this modified Initiative step
allocate wounds at this Initiative step and resolve casualty removal

I say "... pile in (if necessary)..." per the START OF INITIATIVE STEP PILE IN section, p 23, first sentance.

That being said, in response to the original questions:

1: you get to pile in twice if you are allowed to make some attacks at one Initiative step and the remaining attacks at a later Initiative step
2: Banshees armed with Power Axes would Pile in and fight at I1
3: since, per p 61 a Halberd is an Axe, and per p 54 of the GK codex a model armed with a Halberd stikes at I + 2, a GK armed with a Halberd strikes at I3

Since Logan Grimnar is allowed to allocate his attacks as he sees fit between the two modes allowed by The Axe Morkai, he would follow the rules for Pile in and attack at each of his Initiative steps.

A couple of things.

First, unweidly doesn't modify a model's initiative, despite what pg 23 says.

Second, I don't think it was ever the intent to allow two pile in moves, regardless of what init you are supposed to strike at.

Third, gk halberds are unique force weapons, therefore they are str4 ap3 init6.

Also, I didn't dl or read the eldar faq, but unless something unique is in there, banshees would still strike at init 1 when charging through cover.

DeathReaper wrote:If they are using the axes they have to strike at I1, as that is what the axes say, regardless of the initiative of the model.

Why don't we just got to the Necron or Nid FAQ to sort this all out (I take it none of you have units with Lash Whips or you would know this).
Set value modifiers are done last. The axe makes them I1. When they charge the mask makes them I10.
If they hit a guy with a lash whip then we have to roll a stinking D6 to see if they are I10 or I1. (Stupidest rule ever.)

So if you DON'T have a lash whip then they hit at I10 on the turn they charge. (No they don't slow down time they just stun everyone just long enough for their axes to hit.)

While they, in fact, may have their initiative boosted to 10, that does not change what the axe does, which makes them strike at I1.

The part of the nid FAQ references an "unstoppable force meets immoveable object" scenario: the lash whip makes a model's initiative 1, while the mask makes it initiative 10. The two rules are absolutes that are in direct conflict, hence the roll off.

Marrak wrote:While they, in fact, may have their initiative boosted to 10, that does not change what the axe does, which makes them strike at I1.

OK lets go rule by rules.
Pg 23 top of the page. "Models make their attacks when there Initiative step is reached." Ok. Lets see there is a note about certain situations, abilities and weapons that can modify a model's Initiative.

So we have a power axe. That is pg 61. and it says that the axe has the unwieldy rule same as a power fist. Go to pg 43 and there we see that the model attacks at Initiative step 1. Refer back to pg 23 where they give an example of a model with an Unwieldy weapon piling in an attacking at I1. So as of right now the Banshee is I1 because of the axe. She piles in at Initiative step 1 per the rules.

OK so now we have to dig out our Eldar Codex. (And Codex trumps BRB and FAQ trumps Codex). pg31 of the Eldar Codex. Looks like the Mask makes them I10 and ignore Initiative bonuses from cover and grenades. So that answers the attacking through terrain question. So as it stands right now they are at either I1 or I10 from the mask.

So last trip is to the FAQs.

Nothing in the Eldar Codex. But both the Nid and Necron talk about the Banshee Mask as a set value modifier and how to resolve the conflict by rolling off to see what set value is used at the start of the fight sub-phase. (ugg, its the lash whip all over again).

So there we have it. Models attack at initiative order. If they have to set modifiers like Unwieldy weapons and a Banshee Mask you roll off before you start the initiative steps. They either pile in and attack at I1 or I10 depending on the roll off to see what Set Modifier is used.

So 50/50 on going last or first. So there is no "Pile in at one Init and then attack at another). The weapon modifies the Init. You pile in and attack at that init. If you have 2 things that have a set modifier you roll them off before pile in to see what your Init is.

And Banshee masks remove the penalty for grenades and charging through cover.

Very unsatisfying getting to the bottom of that and it is DUMB. Eldar really need a new Codex.

The masks do not make them strike at I10, they set their I to 10.

and no matter what your Initiative is on your profile, axes always strike at I1, just like Power Fists.

I have said this on a few of these forums, but let me adress this specific point for this one in case people don't read the other ones.

No axes do not always strike at I1. They do not have the old powerfist rules of "always strike last". Even powerfists in 6th ed. Don't have the rule always strike last. There is no always in the rule for unwieldy. So you have 2 set modifiers that conflictand you need to roll off to see which one is active. So 50/50 on being I1 or I10.

Also there is no attack or strike step in the fight subphase. All models with init X pile in, check who can fight, roll to hit, roll to wound, allocate wounds, make saves. That is it. People are getting stuck on the stupid rule clarification on the "who can fight" step.

Incorrect. Banshee masks make their I10. Axes make them STRIKE AT I1.

While their I is 10, they make attacks at I1.

You do not roll off.

imweasel wrote:
A couple of things.

First, unweidly doesn't modify a model's initiative, despite what pg 23 says.

Second, I don't think it was ever the intent to allow two pile in moves, regardless of what init you are supposed to strike at.

Third, gk halberds are unique force weapons, therefore they are str4 ap3 init6.

Also, I didn't dl or read the eldar faq, but unless something unique is in there, banshees would still strike at init 1 when charging through cover.

I should have caught that GK halberds are indeed unique.

Re: everything else, I don't know.

Pile in at your base initiative - taking terrain and any terrain-effect negating abilities (or grenades) in consideration - then fight at the Initiative as modified by the weapon? I'm still stuck at "Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached".

If the rules had been written:
Charge Sub-phase
Pile In Sub-phase
Fight Sub-phase

... then yeah.