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Hello Dakka, I came across this discussion on another board and would like to know what all of you think:

Imagine a squad of 5 Grey Knights, with 1 NFW halberd, 3 NFW swords and 1 NFW hammer. They assault a unit with FNP, say plague marines.

The halberd causes an unsaved wound at I6.

The Codex rules for Nemesis Force Weapons states: If a unit is striking at different Initiative orders, take the Psychic test to 'activate' the force weapons immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused. Any further wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase will be bound by the result of that Psychic test.
I believe the wording for FNP is 'after unsaved wounds'.
Obviously attacks that cause Instant Death deny a FNP save. Does this mean the first marine to take a wound does not get a FNP save, or does FNP discount the wound as being unsaved?

Now imagine the wound stays unsaved, and the weapons activate by psychic test or banner.

At I4 the swords attack and at I1 the hammer, being ap 3 they deny armour save, and now having been activated they cause Instant Death wounds. Do these attacks then deny a FNP save?

Could this possibly mean (when you are allowed to take the first FNP saves, before activation): if at I6 multiple wounds are caused, the plague marines have to roll each save seperately, after the first failed FNP no more FNP for that unit against the activated force weapons?
Or take all saves at the same time, fail 1, and all succesful FNP saves are negated?

Whats your opinion dakka!?

If two rules trigger at the same time, the active player gets to choose which one goes first. So they get FNP during their turn, but not during your turn (unless you want them to). As soon as a single FNP roll fails, you can activate your NFW and ignore FNP for all further wounds.

You also should not base your argument on believes, but rather on exact rule quotes.

Do they trigger at the same time though? One is immediately after and the other is just "after".

"after" is a free interpretation by the OP. That's what I meant by exact rules quotes.

Why not just decide with your opponent beforehand how force weapons are going to interact with FnP since it is not covered and directly conflicts in the rulebook? You won't get a consensus here, or anywhere.

Rules that directly conflict are covered in the rulebook.

Ok my bad, the exact wording is:
"When a model [...] suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a Special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded. Roll a D6 each time an unsaved wound is suffered"

boils down to the same thing as "after suffering an unsaved wound, roll a d6..."

So I hardly see how that matters, no need to be snide
Thanks for the answer anyway Jidmah, I'll play it as the active player decides which goes first, and count activated weapons as denying FNP

Requiem wrote:Ok my bad, the exact wording is:
"When a model [...] suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a Special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded. Roll a D6 each time an unsaved wound is suffered"

boils down to the same thing as "after suffering an unsaved wound, roll a d6..."

So I hardly see how that matters, no need to be snide
Thanks for the answer anyway Jidmah, I'll play it as the active player decides which goes first, and count activated weapons as denying FNP

It matters because the FNP rule says that it happens "when" not "after" an unsaved wound so it triggers at that exact moment and then further goes on to say that if the D6 roll is a 5 or higher then the wound is "discounted" - treat it as being saved.

I would agree with Jidmah's post about after failinga FNP roll the rest do not get it.

I always thought that FNP was always denied if armor was ignored. As NFW's are to my knowledge powerweapons, this shouldn't be an issue.....

DemetriDominov wrote:I always thought that FNP was always denied if armor was ignored. As NFW's are to my knowledge powerweapons, this shouldn't be an issue.....

depends on the weapon now in 6th, most NFW are AP 3 now so Termie's get armor saves, techmarines, artificer armor etc.

DemetriDominov wrote:I always thought that FNP was always denied if armor was ignored. As NFW's are to my knowledge powerweapons, this shouldn't be an issue.....

True in 5th edition, but now no longer the case. FNP is only denied by instant death.
You can now take a FNP save even if armour is ignored.

I would say, by RAW, you take FNP for the first wounds, until such time as a FNP is failed, at which point you use the force weapon power, and if successful ignore FNP for the rest of them.

My reasoning for this is that if FNP is successful, you treat the wound as being Saved. This would mean that all effects that relate to unsaved wounds would then be ignored.

Well I have been educated. Now I know better

After the first unsaved wound you and your opponent roll off ASAP whoever is faster wins, there is a section called fast dice on the wound allocation page.

Just kidding, once a fnp roll has been failed its instant death after that and no more would be allowed to be taken

You cannot take FNP because the very nature of the unsaved wound causes Instant Death. It is irrelvant because the wound itself carries the property of Instant Death, not what caused it.

If two rules trigger at the same time, the active player gets to choose which one goes first, as mentioned. (page 9)

So if it's the Librarian owner's turn, he can decide to activate his force weapon before FNP is rolled - if successful, the pending FNP roll is discarded.

If it's the Trygon owner's turn, then he can choose to roll FNP -- if he passes, there is no unsaved wound for the Forceweapon to activate off. If he fails, then the Librarian can choose to activate the Force weapon.

Simple and elegant, and sure beats 'Roll a D6 and decide'.

I could bring up the 5th ed argument, that since FNP must come before the actual Wound removal, it must come before any other unsaved wound effects, however, I'll leave that argument for people who can hash it out a little better.

FnP is NOT a save as stipulated in the FnP entry.

Therefore, the first unsaved wounds are inflicted after the armor/invuln save step(which is none because of AP3) and immediatly the GKs activate their FWs. Then FnP is denied because of ID.

Grey Templar wrote:FnP is NOT a save as stipulated in the FnP entry.

Therefore, the first unsaved wounds are inflicted after the armor/invuln save step(which is none because of AP3) and immediatly the GKs activate their FWs. Then FnP is denied because of ID.

Ha, says the GK player.

Chicken and Egg.

Both rules happen after an unsaved wound is inflicted. Simultaneous events are covered on Page 9.

There is a rule for this situation, maybe people should follow it?

Can we all agree just to let this drop? The exact same thing came up last edition with FnP multiple times resulting in warnings, hurt feelings, and sore thumbs.

The wording hasn't changed (in a relevant way) so were left with the same discussion.

Agree to disagree.

rigeld2 wrote:Can we all agree just to let this drop? The exact same thing came up last edition with FnP multiple times resulting in warnings, hurt feelings, and sore thumbs.

The wording hasn't changed (in a relevant way) so were left with the same discussion.

Agree to disagree.

Was there a rule to resolve simultaneous exceptions as per page 9 last edition?

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Can we all agree just to let this drop? The exact same thing came up last edition with FnP multiple times resulting in warnings, hurt feelings, and sore thumbs.

The wording hasn't changed (in a relevant way) so were left with the same discussion.

Agree to disagree.

Was there a rule to resolve simultaneous exceptions as per page 9 last edition?

If FnP resolves first, there's still an unsaved wound that was caused, meaning the Force Weapon can activate and cause ID.
But if you activate the Force Weapon, you're not ignoring the wound.

Even if you don't apply the wound/ID to the first model because it was FnPed, is the Force Weapon allowed to activate? If not, do they miss their chance to activate? FnP says to ignore the wound, but it's still unsaved, so....


See the argument? The rule on page 9 has possibly solved one example, but not entirely - because you're still left with the fact that there's an unsaved wound that was caused. Even if the wound is not applied to the models profile.

Either way the Force Weapons will activate, you just may be able to save the first one, although you should feel very bad about playing it like that.

Grey Templar wrote:Either way the Force Weapons will activate, you just may be able to save the first one, although you should feel very bad about playing it like that.

But if activate the force weapons, you're not ignoring the wound as FnP requires.

I am so tired of this edition making people not read English.

pg 15; Take Saving Throws

"First of all, the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one, (see pg16) for each wound being resolved. Make a note of how many unsaved wounds have been caused."

You have inflicted Unsaved Wounds. You then immediately activate the Force Weapon, and pass, and now all unsaved wounds cause Instant Death "If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force Weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule"

pg 15; Allocate Wounds and Remove Casualties

"Next, allocate an unsaved wound to the enemy model closest to the firing unit (or in this case, the model in base to base). Reduce that model's Wounds by 1. If the model is reduced to 0 wounds, remove it as a casualty"

Unsaved wounds are allocated. FNP states "When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special feel no pain roll to avoid being wounded...Note that Feel No Pain cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict Instant Death"

This is direct RAW in the process of order for taking unsaved wounds after failed saving throws, and then the allocation of said unsaved wounds and removing casualties.

You cause wounds, you activate Force, you allocate wounds, you cannot take FNP because the wounds that you are allocating cause Instant Death. Period, end of sentence.

I play Death Guard and Grey Knights. I know how both rules work, and even I am saying the above.

You even quoted how both rules say they activate on a unsaved wound - why are you putting one before the other?

Also, this problem has been for more than this edition, and saying "this edition making people not read English." is both amusing and uncalled for.

No, they don't activate at the same time.

You inflict unsaved wounds. This is under "Saving Throws". You do not suffer an unsaved wound until you get to allocation, which is the next step. This is under "Allocating Wounds"

When you inflict the unsaved wound, you make the Force check before wounds are allocated. You then allocate the wounds, and the model suffers an unsaved wound. At which point, FNP would apply after the wound has been allocated, but you cannot take FNP because the wound cause Instant Death which was established when you total up unsaved wounds under Saving Throws and before Allocating Wounds

When do you roll FNP? After an unsaved wound.
When do you activate Force Weapons? After an unsaved wound.

The player whose turn it is decides the order in which the events occur.

Read. The. Rulebook.

If it's the Force Weapon player's turn, he can elect to activate his force weapon first before FNP is rolled - if successful, the pending FNP roll is discarded, if unsuccessful, the FNP roll is made.

If it's the FNP player's turn, then he can choose to roll FNP first -- if he passes, there is no unsaved wound for the Forceweapon to activate off. If he fails, then the Librarian can choose to activate the Force weapon.

Stop making something easy, complicated.

Okay, we need to start with pertinent quotes:

Page 37; Force - 2nd Paragraph

If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule...

Page 37; Force - 1st Paragraph

If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it...

Page 38; Instant Death - 1st Paragraph

Unsaved Wounds inflicted by an attack with this special rule automatically inflict Instant Death...

Page 35; Feel No Pain - 2nd Paragraph

Note that Feel No Pain cannot be made against unsaved Wounds that inflict Instant Death.

Page 35; Feel No Pain - 1st Paragraph

When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded...

im·me·di·ate·ly/iˈmēdē-itlē/
Adverb:
1) At once; instantly.
2) Without any intervening time or space: "sitting immediately behind me".

Now a few things to point out. Only Force uses the words immediately which, to me at least, means it takes precedence over Feel No Pain in the order things go. Feel No Pain simply says it takes place after a wound is unsaved. A simple reading of both of these rules should tell us that anything that happens immediately after an even will happen before something that only happens after an event. Only two events that occur immediately after an event can conflict with each other. Now this is kind of the hinge for this reading, so if you don't agree with this interpretation the rest sort of falls apart. But since one rule has immediacy in its language and the other lacks that I think it is an important distinction to make.

So now we have a rough timeline. The first unit makes an attack, it causes a wound, this wound is unsaved. Now we enter the phase where things that happen after an unsaved wound occurs. Now, since immediately means with no intervening time we then resolve Force. We cannot choose to activate FNP first because then we would be breaking the rules for Force which states that it takes place immediately after. So Force is resolved and it now grants Instant Death as a property to all attacks for the rest of the turn. Looking up FNP's wording we see that this means now no FNP save can be taken.

So unless one ignores the use of immediately in Force and its lack in FNP then it is clear that FNP cannot resolve prior to Force if both are in effect.

Kind of reminds me of the 4th Edition Deep Strike/Teleport Homer debate. Turns out the presence of the word immediately was key to the timing there as well. If an effect takes place immediately then it supercedes effects that happen after but do not happen immediately. Unless you ignore wording this one seems clear enough (though it would be nice to see it in a FAQ since I can see people arguing it until they are blue in the face).

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:When do you roll FNP? After an unsaved wound.
When do you activate Force Weapons? After an unsaved wound.

The player whose turn it is decides the order in which the events occur.

Read. The. Rulebook.

If it's the Force Weapon player's turn, he can elect to activate his force weapon first before FNP is rolled - if successful, the pending FNP roll is discarded, if unsuccessful, the FNP roll is made.

If it's the FNP player's turn, then he can choose to roll FNP first -- if he passes, there is no unsaved wound for the Forceweapon to activate off. If he fails, then the Librarian can choose to activate the Force weapon.

Stop making something easy, complicated.

When do you activate Force Weapons? When you inflict an unsaved wound. When do you inflict an unsaved wound? When your opponent fails his saving throws.
When do you roll FNP? When you suffer an unsaved wound. When do you suffer an unsaved wound? When the wound has been allocated to the model.

The difference here? Inflict and Suffer; these words are directly from both Force (inflict) and FNP(suffer).. Inflict means I cause you to be wounded. But, what model is wounded? We don't know, until you allocate the wound. And directly from the rulebook, I inflict wounds. It even says "keep note of how many wounds you cause". So right at this point, I have inflicted unsaved wounds. This is the point where I activate Force.

Now, per the rulebook, we allocate wounds. When a wound is allocated, the model suffers a wound. You reduce its wounds by 1, and if at 0, removed as casualty. FNP states that it is rolled for when wounds are suffered "to avoid being wounded". How can you suffer a wound if it is not allocated?

Stop saying that it happens at the same time, because it clearly doesn't. Wounds are inflicted when you fail the saving throw, however you do not suffer the effects until you get to allocation. Force specifically states that you check immediately after inflicting wounds, which happens after saving throws are failed, but before wounds are allocated.

Inflict Unsaved Wounds
Activate Force Weapon
Allocate Unsaved Wounds
Check for Feel No Pain

In.
The.
Rulebook.