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You missed his point that the Force Weapon activation has more immediate wording. It says "Immediatly after", FnP just says "after"

Ergo we have a RAW timeline. You can't FnP if FWs activate.

I agree, "immediately after" trumps "after".

Although technically (as has been rightly pointed out to me) the FNP rule doesn't say after, but 'when'

Inflict Unsaved Wounds
Activate Force Weapon
Allocate Unsaved Wounds
Check for Feel No Pain

this makes sense to me

Requiem wrote:Although technically (as has been rightly pointed out to me) the FNP rule doesn't say after, but 'when'

Inflict Unsaved Wounds
Activate Force Weapon
Allocate Unsaved Wounds
Check for Feel No Pain

this makes sense to me

Agreed on this. If you follow the wording of FNP, you make the roll "when" the model suffers an unsaved Wound - however that doesn't occur until after it's been allocated, which by the wording of the Force Weapon rule must follow after the unsaved Wound is inflicted - to allocate the Wound first would mean you're not activating the Force Weapon "immediately after".

Also, hopefully the other issue's been clarified sufficiently already - but just in case. FNP rolls are not standard saves. Therefore it doesn't apply to the wording of "unsaved Wound". If you had a standard save to make, or if it was ignored, the unsaved Wound is both inflicted and suffered before you get to roll for FNP.
As a result, the very first activation of Force Weapons means that Instant Death applies to all following Wounds in that phase. You can't just ignore them because you made a FNP roll.

djdarknoise wrote:

When do you activate Force Weapons? When you inflict an unsaved wound. When do you inflict an unsaved wound? When your opponent fails his saving throws.
When do you roll FNP? When you suffer an unsaved wound. When do you suffer an unsaved wound? When the wound has been allocated to the model.

The difference here? Inflict and Suffer; these words are directly from both Force (inflict) and FNP(suffer).. Inflict means I cause you to be wounded. But, what model is wounded? We don't know, until you allocate the wound. And directly from the rulebook, I inflict wounds. It even says "keep note of how many wounds you cause". So right at this point, I have inflicted unsaved wounds. This is the point where I activate Force.

Now, per the rulebook, we allocate wounds. When a wound is allocated, the model suffers a wound. You reduce its wounds by 1, and if at 0, removed as casualty. FNP states that it is rolled for when wounds are suffered "to avoid being wounded". How can you suffer a wound if it is not allocated?

Stop saying that it happens at the same time, because it clearly doesn't. Wounds are inflicted when you fail the saving throw, however you do not suffer the effects until you get to allocation. Force specifically states that you check immediately after inflicting wounds, which happens after saving throws are failed, but before wounds are allocated.

Inflict Unsaved Wounds
Activate Force Weapon
Allocate Unsaved Wounds
Check for Feel No Pain

In.
The.
Rulebook.

Your result is correct, but you methodology is not. For example, on a unit with different armor save values you allocate before you take saving throws, so what would happen then?

As others have already pointed out Force weapons can "immediately" activate, which trumps the wording in FNP.

I think people are missing some quirks about wound allocation, the order that wounds are allocated vs when saves are taken is different between units that have all the same save vs units with mixed save.

In the first case, saves are taken before wounds are allocated. This means that if any wounds are left unsaved at this point, the Force Weapon can attempt to activate, since FnP would not be applicable until after the wound is allocated. It's important to note hear that FnP does not count as a saving throw and so it can not be rolled when taking saves in this case, even though a wound is considered saved if passed.

In the second case, however, saves are taken after wounds are allocated. In this case I would argue that since the wording of FnP is "WHEN" vs the Force Weapon which is "AFTER" the FnP roll does come into play here. As long as the current wound is allocated to a model with FnP using normal wound allocation rules, that model will be able to roll FnP until he fails. After that, all further unsaved wounds from the force weapons would cause instant death.

Units of a single model fall into the first category.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WhoopieMonster wrote:

Your result is correct, but you methodology is not. For example, on a unit with different armor save values you allocate before you take saving throws, so what would happen then?

As others have already pointed out Force weapons can "immediately" activate, which trumps the wording in FNP.

Lets not snipe words out of a sentence here.

FnP uses the word "WHEN" this means currently, or at the same time as. "WHEN a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound"
The Force Weapon power says "IMMEDIATELY AFTER" the word immediately is used to modify the word AFTER. It is not on its own.

These means, that as long as a wound has been allocated before saves are taken (in the case of a unit with multiple saves), that FnP MUST happen before the attempt of activation on the force weapon is even allowed. At this point, if the FnP roll succeeds, it is "treated as having been saved" and no attempt to activate the force weapon may yet be made.

WhoopieMonster wrote:
Your result is correct, but you methodology is not. For example, on a unit with different armor save values you allocate before you take saving throws, so what would happen then?

As others have already pointed out Force weapons can "immediately" activate, which trumps the wording in FNP.

You inflict wounds by virtue of rolling Strength vs. Toughness. This creates the wound pool. (pg14).
You then allocate the saving throws allowed, if any (pg.15)
You fail the saving throw. This adds to the number of unsaved wounds (pg 15 "Take note of how many unsaved wounds")
As unsaved wounds have been inflicted, you activate Force.
You then allocate the unsaved wounds (pg 15, "Allocating Wounds and Remove Casualties")
Model(s) with a different armor save has to suffer the first wound, as you have rolled on that armor save value. As with un-mixed saves, the Force roll happens when you inflict the unsaved wound, but before you get to allocate the wounds.
The rest of the Force attacks then count as Instant Death for the rest of the combat, regardless of which armor save value you roll for next.

@CanisLupus518: Your logic is not correct. The word "when" does not mean "immediately". "When" means "if A happens". Thus, Force Weapon trumps FNP in ordering.

djdarknoise wrote:

WhoopieMonster wrote:
Your result is correct, but you methodology is not. For example, on a unit with different armor save values you allocate before you take saving throws, so what would happen then?

As others have already pointed out Force weapons can "immediately" activate, which trumps the wording in FNP.

You inflict wounds by virtue of rolling Strength vs. Toughness. This creates the wound pool. (pg14).
You then allocate the saving throws allowed, if any (pg.15)
You fail the saving throw. This adds to the number of unsaved wounds (pg 15 "Take note of how many unsaved wounds")
As unsaved wounds have been inflicted, you activate Force.
You then allocate the unsaved wounds (pg 15, "Allocating Wounds and Remove Casualties")
Model(s) with a different armor save has to suffer the first wound, as you have rolled on that armor save value. As with un-mixed saves, the Force roll happens when you inflict the unsaved wound, but before you get to allocate the wounds.
The rest of the Force attacks then count as Instant Death for the rest of the combat, regardless of which armor save value you roll for next.

For a unit with mixed saves, your order in incorrect. Wounds are allocated BEFORE saves are taken in this case. Wounds must be allocated one at a time, and saves taken one at a time. Because of this particular order, if a wound is allocated to a model with the FnP rule first... and he either fails his armor save or can not take his armor save, then he can roll FnP. If FnP succeeds, the force weapons can not yet be activated.

CanisLupus518 wrote:For a unit with mixed saves, your order in incorrect. Wounds are allocated BEFORE saves are taken in this case. Wounds must be allocated one at a time, and saves taken one at a time. Because of this particular order, if a wound is allocated to a model with the FnP rule first... and he either fails his armor save or can not take his armor save, then he can roll FnP. If FnP succeeds, the force weapons can not yet be activated.

No. No. No.

"If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force Weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule".

inflictedpast participle, past tense of in·flict (Verb)
Verb:

Cause (something unpleasant or painful) to be suffered by someone or something: "inflict injuries on".

suf·fer/ˈsəfər/
Verb:

Experience or be subjected to (something bad or unpleasant).
Be affected by or subject to (an illness or ailment).

I inflict an unsaved wound. You immediately check for Force. Then you suffer the unsaved wound. You check for Feel No Pain, which is not allowed because the Force check was taken immediately after you inflict, but before you check for FNP

Even if the wound is allocated to a model with FNP, he will not get his FNP.

Wound allocated
He fails his armour save
(IMMMEDIATELY AFTER): FNP activated

Done.

However, with a unit of different save models, you don't inflict an unsaved wound, until AFTER the wound has been allocated to a model.

leohart wrote:@CanisLupus518: Your logic is not correct. The word "when" does not mean "immediately". "When" means "if A happens". Thus, Force Weapon trumps FNP in ordering.

I don't see how WHEN means IF.

If I were to say that A occurs WHEN B occurs, then A and B occur at the same time.

If I were to say that C occurs IMMEDIATELY AFTER B occurs, then C occurs after B

If I were to take both of those sentences together, then C occurs after A and after B.

Happyjew wrote:However, with a unit of different save models, you don't inflict an unsaved wound, until AFTER the wound has been allocated to a model.

I do not have my rulebook on me. Can you please post, Verbatim, the rules under the heading of Mixed Saves (including the paragraphs that have bullet points on the bottom of the page)

djdarknoise wrote:

CanisLupus518 wrote:For a unit with mixed saves, your order in incorrect. Wounds are allocated BEFORE saves are taken in this case. Wounds must be allocated one at a time, and saves taken one at a time. Because of this particular order, if a wound is allocated to a model with the FnP rule first... and he either fails his armor save or can not take his armor save, then he can roll FnP. If FnP succeeds, the force weapons can not yet be activated.

No. No. No.

"If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force Weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule".

In my example above, wounds are allocated before saves are taken. At this point, you have not yet caused any unsaved wounds.

Once a single wound has been allocated, in this case, the model may make it's save. If it fails, then the model has taken an unsaved wound.

I think we can agree this far.

Now, FnP says WHEN. Force Weapon says AFTER. So FnP happens first, and if it succeeds the wound is counted as saved, so you have not yet caused any unsaved wounds. If he fails FnP, then you can activate force weapon as normal and cause instant death.

When it rains, you get wet if you're outside.
Immediately after it rains, you can dry off by going inside.

Which one happens first...

djdarknoise wrote:

Happyjew wrote:However, with a unit of different save models, you don't inflict an unsaved wound, until AFTER the wound has been allocated to a model.

I do not have my rulebook on me. Can you please post, Verbatim, the rules under the heading of Mixed Saves (including the paragraphs that have bullet points on the bottom of the page)

I could, but that goes against the rules of dakka. There is a reason we are not supposed to post the rules (especially verbatim).

When used as a conjunction: "when" doesn't guarantee immediacy.

"When it is morning, I will go pick up some grocery".

Morning comes up at 8. Do I need to go pick up the grocery right away? No.
Now it is 9, it is still morning. Do I need to go pick up the grocery right away? No.
It is 11:59, it is almost the end of the so-call morning. Do I need to go pick up the grocery now? Probably.

So:
Page 35 of BRB: "When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special FNP roll to avoid being wounded".

Page 37 of BRB: "If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by extending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test. If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule."

I don't see where people get the word "After".

So the order happens:
- Wound is allocated onto the model
- The model fails his armour save
- Does he have to make the FNP roll now? No. He might have armour save re-roll or some other rolls that can make.
- Can the psyker immediately activate this Force weapon? Yes.

So if the psyker choooses to activate his Force Weapon and he passes, that is it.

leohart wrote:- Does he have to make the FNP roll now? No.

Can you show me where in the FnP rules I'm allowed the choice of when to make it? I'll choose to make it before you roll your Psychic power every time.
If you're implying a choice, you must have rules to support when that choice is made, right?


You can't find any? I'm shocked and awed!
Your example of grocery shopping is flawed because you have inserted choice when the rules don't allow for one.
My rain example is much closer to the rules.

rigeld2 wrote:
You can't find any? I'm shocked and awed!

Maybe I am reading too much into some text. Personally I feel that you are attacking me personally when you say such line. Can you please kindly not do so again? You can simply state that "There is no rule allowing FNP to be done after/instead of right away".

rigeld2 wrote:
My rain example is much closer to the rules.

Perhaps your example is closer to the rule, but it still incorrect. There is no "after" in the wording of the rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

leohart wrote:- Does he have to make the FNP roll now? No.

Can you show me where in the FnP rules I'm allowed the choice of when to make it? I'll choose to make it before you roll your Psychic power every time.
If you're implying a choice, you must have rules to support when that choice is made, right?


You can't find any? I'm shocked and awed!
Your example of grocery shopping is flawed because you have inserted choice when the rules don't allow for one.
My rain example is much closer to the rules.

Actually the grocery example proves my point, since in either case, MORNING and GROCERIES will occur at the same time. Just because MORNING happens to be a time frame much larger than is required to buy groceries doesn't change that fact.

I'll concede the point of the use of the word "AFTER" since I was going by the wording in the OP. However, this, at the very least, means that both rules occur at the same time, and the controlling player gets to choose the order in this case.

leohart wrote:When used as a conjunction: "when" doesn't guarantee immediacy.

"When it is morning, I will go pick up some grocery".

Morning comes up at 8. Do I need to go pick up the grocery right away? No.
Now it is 9, it is still morning. Do I need to go pick up the grocery right away? No.
It is 11:59, it is almost the end of the so-call morning. Do I need to go pick up the grocery now? Probably.

But notice that in your example, that you are still doing your action while it is morning.

Assuming you do everything you say (so for this example, that you will pick up grocery when it is morning), then some time during morning, you will pick it up and will have done it some time before morning ends.

When a model suffers an unsaved wound....

This means that some time during suffering a wound, we must do what is after, unless otherwise directed (just like the lower portion of the rule).

Immediately after a psyker inflicts an unsaved wound...

I believe that is right?
Anyway, the phrase "immediately after" means that we must apply whatever is after the condition as soon as the specified condition ends.

So now the question is what happens first, does an attacker inflict an unsaved wound, and then a defender suffers from it? are they at the same time?

leohart wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You can't find any? I'm shocked and awed!

Maybe I am reading too much into some text. Personally I feel that you are attacking me personally when you say such line. Can you please kindly not do so again? You can simply state that "There is no rule allowing FNP to be done after/instead of right away".

Apologies. I was using sarcasm.

rigeld2 wrote:
My rain example is much closer to the rules.

Perhaps your example is closer to the rule, but it still incorrect. There is no "after" in the wording of the rules.

Unsaved wound is inflicted.
When an Unsaved wound is suffered, take a FnP test.
When an Unsaved wound is inflicted, choose to activate a Force weapon.

You're inserting the optional ability before the required one. I don't think there's a rule dictating absolutely that one happens before the other.

CanisLupus518 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

leohart wrote:- Does he have to make the FNP roll now? No.

Can you show me where in the FnP rules I'm allowed the choice of when to make it? I'll choose to make it before you roll your Psychic power every time.
If you're implying a choice, you must have rules to support when that choice is made, right?


You can't find any? I'm shocked and awed!
Your example of grocery shopping is flawed because you have inserted choice when the rules don't allow for one.
My rain example is much closer to the rules.

Actually the grocery example proves my point, since in either case, MORNING and GROCERIES will occur at the same time. Just because MORNING happens to be a time frame much larger than is required to buy groceries doesn't change that fact.

I'll concede the point of the use of the word "AFTER" since I was going by the wording in the OP. However, this, at the very least, means that both rules occur at the same time, and the controlling player gets to choose the order in this case.

Reading back and forth again through everyone's post, I believe my argument is not as good as I thought. I now agree with Canis: the controlling player gets to choose the order of these two events (FNP roll, vs Force activation roll).

SCvodimier wrote:

Immediately after a psyker inflicts an unsaved wound...

I believe that is right?

It's not.

If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test.

rigeld2 wrote:

SCvodimier wrote:

Immediately after a psyker inflicts an unsaved wound...

I believe that is right?

It's not.

If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test.

hmm, thanks, well that kind of invalidates most of what I said.

leohart wrote:
Reading back and forth again through everyone's post, I believe my argument is not as good as I thought. I now agree with Canis: the controlling player gets to choose the order of these two events (FNP roll, vs Force activation roll).

To sum this up, I think the conclusion up to this point is:

1) Against a unit that has all the same save (including a single model unit), the roll for the Force Weapon would occur BEFORE, and therefore negate, Feel No Pain

2) Against a unit with multiple saves, since wounds are allocated beofre saves are taken, IF the first wound is allocated to a model with the Feel No Pain USR, then it is up to the player whose turn it is which rule applies first. The GK Player will get to use the Force Weapon on his turn, but on his opponents turn, the FnP roll will prevent the Force Weapon activation until the first time that FnP fails.

Is this a good summary so far?

Yes it sums it up, but I think this shows how this edition is just as full of stupid RAW bits that make no logical sense. Whole unit has FNP, great, better have at leat one 2+ save to make sure you can use it.

There are only 2 ways this can work. One makes sense, the other follows the rules but is obviously exploiting a loophole.

1: FWs activate before FnP all the time and will negate it.

2: On the Psykers turn the FWs activate before FnP and ignore it, and on the person without the Psyker they activate after FnP and so you can FnP the first FW wounds caused.


Number 2 is incredibly dumb, this coming from a person who is fond of RAW. It may be the technically correct way, but its clearly a mistake and not even I will exploit it.

1. Violates wound allocation steps with mixed armour. 2. does not make sense, but it seems like a fair trade off for game balance and playability.