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Hey all,
read the rules and was wondering since unusual force weapons are anything with odd rules Runic weapons count under that?
I have a priest with an axe and by my reading he is hitting at initiative with ap3.

That's a great question. I would say, that since the special rules have nothing to do with its combat stats, that it is therefore a force axe with the runic special rules (so I1, AP2). However, I can totaly see someone stating that because it has a special rule that all runic weapons are force swords with special rules.

I'd say it's an Unusual Force Weapon by pure RAW, especially as it has multiple additional rules (such as wounding Daemons on a 2+). Thus it should be S:User AP:3, though I wouldn't really mind someone playing it as a Force Axe or Force Stave (especially since the fluff states that they are often such).

Short answer : You should be +1 strength, AP2 at Init 1with your runic axe.

Long Answer.
Is it a space wolf rune priest with a runic axe? I don't have my rules in front of me, but IIRC a runic weapon is a force weapon with the additional rule that it can nullify enemy psychic powers as described in the codex. Force weapons are described in the 40K rulebook. It says a force weapon is a power weapon + the stuff about psychic test kills blah blah. As a power weapon, it is now a power axe (since it is modeled as an axe).

Lobukia: It does have unique combat rules, the wounding daemons on a 2+. Plus do the rules limit the special rules that make power/force weapons unusual to be combat only?

@Grugknuckle: That is incorrect. Xca|iber has it right.

It is an Unusual Force Weapon by RAW since it is a FW with additional special rules. S: User AP: 3

But if there are any questions at all, you should verify with your opponent before the game begins.


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the Codex says it's a force weapon. The Rule book calls out rules for force weapons.

Page 60 wrote:Unusual Force Weapons
Many models have unusual Force weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a Force weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.

Runic Weapons are Force Weapons that wound Daemons on a 2+ and nullify powers on a 4+. That would count as 'its own unique close combat rules' so it should be treated as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.

liturgies of blood wrote:Lobukia: It does have unique combat rules, the wounding daemons on a 2+. Plus do the rules limit the special rules that make power/force weapons unusual to be combat only?

It says "unique close combat rules". To me, the wounding daemons on a 2+ is part of its affect, not part of its close combat rules. I would bet I'm in the minority here, but I would let an opponent have it either way, and I would take the ruling either way on my units.

The SW codex says it is a force weapon... and then says furthermore.... and gives special rules. RAW: thats Str: User, I:User, AP 3 And that is how I would teach it to a new SW player. However, if a SW player wanted it the "axe" way, sure, I see a reasonable request in that.

If you're looking for something in a tourney or in a RAW club, better go the unique route. If you play in a fluffy club, ask, and I think its a reasonable request to get the AP2 axe if desired.

Ok...as I said, I don't have my rules in front of me, so I'll take your word for it.

I'm going to look it up when I get home though - Just to make sure you're not trying to cheat me!

In any case, you should always clarify with your opponent before the game starts.

Runic weapons are force weapons plus more (wound daemons on a 2+). Thus they are classed as unusual force weapons.

Seriously? A plain as day RAW example of an unusual force weapon is being questioned? This forum has gone to crap with the new edition.

The rules are new man. Give people time.

Grugknuckle wrote:The rules are new man. Give people time.

Agreed. Not everyone is trying to cheez it.

Sorry Ramses, I just wanted to be clear. I often read things the way I want rather then how it actually says first time around.

I have a pretty conversion that I didn't want to have being I1.

liturgies of blood wrote:Sorry Ramses, I just wanted to be clear. I often read things the way I want rather then how it actually says first time around.

I have a pretty conversion that I didn't want to have being I1.

Well you are very safe then. What's kinda funny is that I'd bet there will be more SW players wanting "axe" status over "unique".

That means I am forced to use my Rune Priest with his Rune Axe and with WARP SPEED take a Possible 6 Attacks with a Possible Initiative 7 and my Possible S7 AP3 thanks to IRON ARM.
Cool I guess its going to suck to be a Marine vs. Rune Priest.

Anpu42 wrote:That means I am forced to use my Rune Priest with his Rune Axe and with WARP SPEED take a Possible 6 Attacks with a Possible Initiative 7 and my Possible S7 AP3 thanks to IRON ARM.
Cool I guess its going to suck to be a Marine vs. Rune Priest.

If you roll both a 1 and a 5 for your psychic powers, and if you roll a 5 or 6 for Warp Speed, and you roll a 5 or 6 for Iron Arm, then sure...

OT they are Unusual weapons: Str user AP3.

DeathReaper wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:That means I am forced to use my Rune Priest with his Rune Axe and with WARP SPEED take a Possible 6 Attacks with a Possible Initiative 7 and my Possible S7 AP3 thanks to IRON ARM.
Cool I guess its going to suck to be a Marine vs. Rune Priest.

If you roll both a 1 and a 5 for your psychic powers, and if you roll a 5 or 6 for Warp Speed, and you roll a 5 or 6 for Iron Arm, then sure...

OT they are Unusual weapons: Str user AP3.

The sad part is I know people that can do that on a regular basis.


Actually the point I want to make [I almost think this should be a tread of its own].

The book says Unusual Weapons Must Make Something a certain way, but does not clarify it 100%.
So the Rule Must be enforced NO MATER WHAT Good or Bad even if [warning bad word] Logically you could take a small leap of [warning the dirty word again] Logic it could be applied differently.
Example: It states a number of times that Njal’s Staff is a Staff therefore a Force Maul making it S6 AP4, but it has its other powers; therefore it is an “Unusual Force Weapon” making it S4 AP3.

What is so Wrong with that Runic Staff being S: +2 and AP4, is that going to break the game? This is the approach my group is going with because WYSIWYG is easy to use than argue the point.

If its an axe its I1 +1s and has the other rules on top, the rules are very clear on this an axe is an axe and nothing else.

Now if you ask your opponent if you can use it as a sword instead and he agree's thats fine, but if he says no then you must use it as whats modeled.

Page 60 of the BRB details force axes and thats all a rune axe is, its just that runic weapons have better rules.

@hobojesus: read unusual FW again. You are wrong.

If kharn's gorechild isn't considered an unusual weapon (its a power axe) then a mere runic axe shouldn't. just my 2 cents

The difference is that Gorechild was ammended to be a power axe, where a runic axe was not.

Gorechild got faq'ed.

I know it got FAQed, my point was that if GW considered that a weapon like gorechild didn't fit under unusual they might have assumed that a force weapon which has axe literally written over it would be considered a power axe by the players, but we all know GW love to leave rules open for interpretation and no one will ever know what their true intention was until and if they release a new FAQ.

Lobukia wrote:It says "unique close combat rules". To me, the wounding daemons on a 2+ is part of its affect, not part of its close combat rules. I would bet I'm in the minority here, but I would let an opponent have it either way, and I would take the ruling either way on my units.

I just had to address this as it is too much lunacy not to specifically address.


How could you ever, possibly, justify a claim that the To Wound roll against Daemons succeeding on a 2+ is not a "unique close combat rule"?

That is pretty much the definition of a Close combat rule, and/or a unique rule.

It is exactly the definition of a "unique close combat rule".



I had to just get that out there. Now, on to a HIWPI: Personally I would keep them Unique FWs Flat out. But, if my opponent(either with myself or my Opponent playing space wolves) wanted to play them as WYSWIG UFWs(Basically adding the "sub-type as modeled" as a Special rule to the basic Runic Weapon rules; the same as how defined Power/Force weapons with unique rules function); I would be just fine with that.


Also, Lord Yayula: Gorechild is still an Unusual Power Weapon, it is just that "Power Axe" is one of its rules. "treated as a power axe" means has the rules of a Power Axe, and "In addition" means "As well as its other Unique Close combat rules".

Gorechild is very much just an Unusual Power Weapon with the Power Axe rules/profile as added rules.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Lobukia wrote:It says "unique close combat rules". To me, the wounding daemons on a 2+ is part of its affect, not part of its close combat rules. I would bet I'm in the minority here, but I would let an opponent have it either way, and I would take the ruling either way on my units.

I just had to address this as it is too much lunacy not to specifically address.


How could you ever, possibly, justify a claim that the To Wound roll against Daemons succeeding on a 2+ is not a "unique close combat rule"?

That is pretty much the definition of a Close combat rule, and/or a unique rule.

It is exactly the definition of a "unique close combat rule".



I had to just get that out there. Now, on to a HIWPI: Personally I would keep them Unique FWs Flat out. But, if my opponent(either with myself or my Opponent playing space wolves) wanted to play them as WYSWIG UFWs(Basically adding the "sub-type as modeled" as a Special rule to the basic Runic Weapon rules; the same as how defined Power/Force weapons with unique rules function); I would be just fine with that.


Also, Lord Yayula: Gorechild is still an Unusual Power Weapon, it is just that "Power Axe" is one of its rules. "treated as a power axe" means has the rules of a Power Axe, and "In addition" means "As well as its other Unique Close combat rules".

Gorechild is very much just an Unusual Power Weapon with the Power Axe rules/profile as added rules.

Oh well, I mean I just had to get it out that you are quoting me out of context, I just had to get this out.

I went on to say that it was defined as a force weapon and we were then told "further" rules. I feel that leaves an allowance for a force axe +an effect. Just had to say that.


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Might I also add that I then stated that I would treat it as unusual force weapon. Don't call me a lunatic if you won't read my posts and quote them in context, there's names for people who do that too.

Lobukia wrote:Oh well, I mean I just had to get it out that you are quoting me out of context, I just had to get this out.

I went on to say that it was defined as a force weapon and we were then told "further" rules. I feel that leaves an allowance for a force axe +an effect. Just had to say that.


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Might I also add that I then stated that I would treat it as unusual force weapon. Don't call me a lunatic if you won't read my posts and quote them in context, there's names for people who do that too.

Not trying to get into a lengthy "thing" here.

The quote I used was the full quote for your assertion. I cut off your Litergies of blood quote, that put it more into the context of a Claim against wounding on a 2+ being a unique CC Rule. I also cut off your recitation of the RAW, and the HIWPI because, frankly, they had nothing to do with your original assertion.

So I was quoting the exact Context you put forth.

Force Axe + Effect only happens when the weapon has the profile of Force Axe, plus special rules; or when the weapon is defined as a Force weapon with special rules, that also uses the rules of a Force Axe(this being the case of Gorechild, only as Power not Force weapon).

This one is pretty straight forward. Not sure what was with the tangent, but hey! What are discussion boards for if not that?



Runic weapon is a Force weapon that needs a 2+ to wound Daemons in close combat, so its an Unusual . Which means S:User I:User AP:3. Disappointing, but given how awesome Rune Priests are I can't really complain!

Also it should once again be noted that fluff =/= equal rules. Or more specifically name =/= rules.

The prime example of this is Logan's Axe of Morkai. It functions as either a frost blade (specifically says blade not axe) or power fist. In no instance on the wording of its function does it act like an axe even though it has axe in its name.

Just because a runic staff is called a staff does not mean it has any reason to actually work like a staff by rules alone.

Weird I know, but it is what it is.

Jayden63 wrote:Also it should once again be noted that fluff =/= equal rules. Or more specifically name =/= rules.

The prime example of this is Logan's Axe of Morkai. It functions as either a frost blade (specifically says blade not axe) or power fist. In no instance on the wording of its function does it act like an axe even though it has axe in its name.

Just because a runic staff is called a staff does not mean it has any reason to actually work like a staff by rules alone.

Weird I know, but it is what it is.

While the core of your point remains Valid; the Item in question here is only referred to as a Runic weapon excepting on the wargear page(where it says staff then directs you to the page that just says weapon).