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I had an idea awhile back to convert a Chaos Predator to specifically go along with my Iron Warriors army. However, after actually holding a predator, I really didn't like the shape. So I got the idea of hacking up an old toy tank (that's about the same size, nothing to large) and add the conversions I wanted to get the right look and use it as a Predator. I was curious to know how many of you would even allow the use of a scratch build like this for gaming. Rest assured though after my conversions it wouldn't look like some dollar store toy anymore, I've done about five sketches for this thing and it looks pretty good. I don't see a problem with it, but this is for casual games and nothing above that level. Maybe I would use it for games in local store but right now it's just idea. Just let me know your opinion, I don't want to put in all the work only to never use the thing. Thanks!

My Ig tanks

Of course some people will say your predator is the best thing ever and others will say than anything other than the official kit is an affront to the HOOOOBBY!. I say go for it but then the people I play with are very easy going with count as armies.

M.

I think you should ask your gaming group, not random strangers.

Going to have to ask the people you play with, reaction could be entirely different from person to person.

I made some scratch built walkers from some mail-order walker parts and some bits and bobs. My local GW store didn't like them at all but when i took them to a GW run tourney the staff there loved them. Go figure, reaction could be entirely different from person to person.

I would agree with the above, the reaction will be entirely different between different people. The quality of the scratch building will make a lot of difference, too. If it looks like you put a lot of effort into converting or scratch building something for your army rather than, say, throwing a Tonka truck on the table and calling it a Battlewagon, more people will likely be accepting of it.

There will always be those diehards who consider anything besides official GW models Heresy, however.

Miguelsan wrote:My Ig tanks

Of course some people will say your predator is the best thing ever and others will say than anything other than the official kit is an affront to the HOOOOBBY!. I say go for it but then the people I play with are very easy going with count as armies.

M.

M 14/41s and a Semovente 75/18? I like your choice of tanks!
Now you have me thinking of starting a Bersaglieri IG army....

My only concern with scratch-built and counts-as stuff is knowing what it what. If I can look at a tank and know what is is without having to ask, that's fine. When I have to keep asking what's what, or what guns it has, etc, that's when I have issues.

This question comes up fairly often and can get heated, but this...

lord_blackfang wrote:I think you should ask your gaming group, not random strangers.

Is probably the best answer -and start to the conversation- that I've seen yet.

If you're looking for a GW store/Tourney, the answer is going to be "NO",

If you're looking for an independent Tourney, the answer is going to be "See our FAQ" or "Ask the organizer"

Otherwise, it's up to you and your friends. I'm all about "rule of cool" which means if it's a finished model and looks cool then it's good to go. However, I'm not your gaming group, so it's their opinion that counts.

Nevelon wrote:My only concern with scratch-built and counts-as stuff is knowing what it what. If I can look at a tank and know what is is without having to ask, that's fine. When I have to keep asking what's what, or what guns it has, etc, that's when I have issues.

This is a very good guideline. IMHO, asside from skill in conversion and appearance (two very subjective aspects), the best conversions/kitbashes for gaming are:
1) Approximately the same size as the original
2) The same degree of protection (armored, unarmored, etc)
3) Weapons in approximately the same locations (turret, pintle, hull, sponson)
4) Weapons converted to the correct type.

So much of what makes a vehicle recognizable is the vehicle dimensions and type and location of armament, that if you get that right and put some effort into the conversion and painting then most people will be ok with it.

General Seric wrote:I would agree with the above, the reaction will be entirely different between different people. The quality of the scratch building will make a lot of difference, too. If it looks like you put a lot of effort into converting or scratch building something for your army rather than, say, throwing a Tonka truck on the table and calling it a Battlewagon, more people will likely be accepting of it.

There will always be those diehards who consider anything besides official GW models Heresy, however.

^^ What the man said.

A cool conversion is going to please anyone with a heart and mind, but there will always be someone who sees it as HHHeresy against the HHHobby.

(Personally I like the stuff that young guys come up with for Orks sometimes, lashed up from sheets of cardboard box held together with sticky tape and so on. But that's the Orky aesthetic.)

I think that a well made conversion is fine in an army. If its a scratch build that looks great, has work invested instead of just a GI Joe toy with some ork glyphs on it, its totally acceptable. I used to run a whole slew of ork vehicle that were complete scratch builds. Sold some. No one ever complained.

Two of my demon prince in my Nurgle army are scratch sculpts. People love them.

And BTW, i agree wholly with Ellif

I would say go with your scratch built pred.


Maybe gamesworkshop stores may not like it, but it could be Pretty cool to build.

Just make sure it fits wysiwyg.

I tried asking the guys around my group but their all out of town or just not answering the phone. So i figured I should start on it tonight and I just wanted a few opinions first. No issue with using it a GW store, none within a hundred miles of me.

You should be fine.
The important thing about the hobby is not being part of some elitest group, but having fun with the game. If you invest the time in modifying the model while remaining WYSIWYG in both load out and dimensions, i cant see any problem with it. Make sure you post a link to some pics when you get it up and running.

Conversions VS Scratch built. At the present moment (in my region that is) 100% scratch built is completely allowed any of the GW stores in my area

Conversions. 75% GW parts 25% other. However this is going to change as I firmly believe soon that there will be no more conversions using other company parts Conversions using GW parts of course will be allowed.

I have no problem with scratch builds, but I find that, generally, they suck.

Most people don't have nearly the converting skill they think they do, and matching the detail level for a kitbash or pulling off a decent scratchbuild is really, really hard work.

Try hanging out with people who DO have the skills, then Kaldor.

(I've got mates who are professional model builders - for SFX work - they taught me more about kitbashing than a dozen issues of WD (I'm talking the pre-issue 200 days). My conversions and kitbashes often get a "that's cool" not "that sucks" response as a result).

If it was me, i would say go for it as long as it has similar weapons that i dont have to keep track of.

lord_blackfang wrote:I think you should ask your gaming group, not random strangers.

How would his gaming group know how many of us would allow it ?, how would they know our opinions ?
Is it too much to ask for you to read the posts before you reply

I have to agree with the general sentiment here. I like well done models. I don't care where they come from.

However, I also have to agree about having to ask what something is. I don't like to play a game if I have to constantly ask what something is. I think it should be obvious just by looking.

I have played and I don´t have issues with scratch built models and I find it one of the best things about 40k. What I don´t understand/agree is why some people are unable to ID basic changes to GW weapons in scratch builds and get upset by it.

I mean if I use chainguns in all my tanks and tell my opponents that are HB is not that difficult to remember. I don´t know how is modeled a venom cannon, (or DE heavy weapons) but I can tell the heavy weapon apart from others and that´s enough for me. Why all that slavish devotion to WYSIWYG then in scratch builds, doesn´t it go against what used to be the hobby: having fun and being creative?

M.

@General Seric: Actually M 13/40s from Tamiya$

Just get some old rhino kits from other people, and kit bash them. Turrets are a dime a dozen for the obiquitous Predator.

You'll be ok, people won't cry that they arn't "officially officaial, and everyones happy.

Kitbashing, conversions, and your skills is what the games about, tell those snobbish types to feth off.


Two words, by the way- Shampoo Bottle.

I say go for it. Most people I game with do not mind custom builds. I have a few items like that. Heck until my son actually got a LRC for his birthday thanks to a really nice guy on Btown, he was using two VCR tapes stacked on top of each other. LOL!!

Conversions and Counts As tend to be my test for whether or not I want to play with a person. We are all fans of a rather expensive hobby to play and cost cutting counts as in rough economic seas shouldn't be a problem within reason. A flamer = a melta for example. If a unit's going to be mixed, marker stones next to each model "Red = flamer, blue = melta" can clear things up nicely. Especially when the average melta bit is going for $5 = S&H.

Similar drill with scratch builts and conversions, times are expensive, GW's prices are high and frankly I think it's fair to dislike some of their model kits and want a slightly different look for your army.

Personal example, I'm presently laboring away in my laboratory on a M270 MLRS launcher that is getting some GW bits and Imperial Guard iconography to stand in for the (imho) ugly and over priced Manticore kit. A more drastic conversion that's next in line in the motor pool is a Flakpanzer Gepard model that's going to get it's guns replaced with a quad of auto cannons and stand up as a Hydra Flaktank. They'll look good, be easy to tell what they are, and they'll even be relatively WYSIWYG. Can't ask for too terrible much more then that from a conversion in my mind.

Infantry conversions are fun too, it's not just vehicles, like for IG the legendary and illusive female guardswoman. (Working on 10 now).

The whole point of any game or hobby is first and foremost to have fun. Getting creative with the craftknife and your bits bin to craft a new and different take on a standard GW kit and really make your army YOUR army is part of that fun.

Still worth checking with your local games group first though.

Personal example, I'm presently laboring away in my laboratory on a M270 MLRS launcher that is getting some GW bits and Imperial Guard iconography to stand in for the (imho) ugly and over priced Manticore kit. A more drastic conversion that's next in line in the motor pool is a Flakpanzer Gepard model that's going to get it's guns replaced with a quad of auto cannons and stand up as a Hydra Flaktank. They'll look good, be easy to tell what they are, and they'll even be relatively WYSIWYG. Can't ask for too terrible much more then that from a conversion in my mind.

Excellent model to use. and I have no problems with that model in game play.

This is an example of drastic conversion of the turrents I use for my pre heresy razorbacks They are modified versions of the panzer V and VI turrents.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/gallery-viewimage.jsp?i=230115&m=2&w=800
http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/gallery-viewimage.jsp?i=230113&m=2&w=800

Bty never had any problems in game play in any tournament that I used them in. On the contrary I had a lot of compliments in using the old school rhino in that configuration. That is part of the hobby. The ability to create.

Heh I've got seven more to do as I am building Razor Back Army of 15 models. I know I won't win any games but it would look so damned cool if I have them in Panzer Formation with infantry walking from behind.

Adam LongWalker wrote:

Personal example, I'm presently laboring away in my laboratory on a M270 MLRS launcher that is getting some GW bits and Imperial Guard iconography to stand in for the (imho) ugly and over priced Manticore kit. A more drastic conversion that's next in line in the motor pool is a Flakpanzer Gepard model that's going to get it's guns replaced with a quad of auto cannons and stand up as a Hydra Flaktank. They'll look good, be easy to tell what they are, and they'll even be relatively WYSIWYG. Can't ask for too terrible much more then that from a conversion in my mind.

Excellent model to use. and I have no problems with that model in game play.

This is an example of drastic conversion of the turrents I use for my pre heresy razorbacks They are modified versions of the panzer V and VI turrents.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/gallery-viewimage.jsp?i=230115&m=2&w=800
http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/gallery-viewimage.jsp?i=230113&m=2&w=800

Bty never had any problems in game play in any tournament that I used them in. On the contrary I had a lot of compliments in using the old school rhino in that configuration. That is part of the hobby. The ability to create.

Heh I've got seven more to do as I am building Razor Back Army of 15 models. I know I won't win any games but it would look so damned cool if I have them in Panzer Formation with infantry walking from behind.

That's fantastic! Looks great Adam.

Despite my earlier enthusiasm on my conversions, then l got home to the MLRS kit... DLM is freaking horrible bottom line. One of the worst kits I have ever had the misfortune to have in my workspace. So I might surrender and just buy an actual IG Manticore to my ever lasting shame. I'm going to bow out on the Gepard conversion for now as well, I can always go back later when I can assure quality kit... and that my skills haven't slipped. (Worst part about a critical failure with a kit, objectively it's a hunk of plastic and in this case one that wouldn't work they way it should with Orkish faith powering it but it makes you question if you rock or not any more XD. Oh well, back to the lab.

My suggestion is to step back for at least a few days for clarity.

Sometimes you will find inspiration with what you have to work with.

chromedog wrote:Try hanging out with people who DO have the skills, then Kaldor.

I do. Some people are great at it.

But most people just think they are great at it.

Adam LongWalker wrote:My suggestion is to step back for at least a few days for clarity.

Sometimes you will find inspiration with what you have to work with.

Yeah after sleeping on it I find the model should still at least look decent.

The scale thing is still an issue. Gentlemen, ladies I'm going to put it to you, the fine posters of this forum.

http://imgur.com/FVIja

with a standard LRBT to scale, would that MLRS be an acceptable stand in for a Manticore artillery vehicle? considering the Cab is the second raised lip forward so it's actual crew compartment is very tiny.

I seem to recall that GW's stance is that:
If it looks cool, and is close enough to the dimensions of the GW kits, it's OK.
There are the issues of weapon fire arcs, fire ports and access points, so check they are fairly similar.

I admit to being a bit biased on the matter, but you should be able to scratch build stuff for your games. This hobby for many of us is a amalgam of Model building, Collecting and Playing the game. If the model is pretty easy to identify on the battlefield, you have invested time and effort to make it a recognizable unit, your opponent should be ok with you playing with it. Below are pics of some of my first scratch builds. None of my foes have ever had a problem identifying the battlewagons or the stompa.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/1476-.html?m=2
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/1474-Da%20fist%20of%20Gork.%20%20WAAAGH%21.html?m=2
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/1473-Da%20mouth%20of%20Gork.%20%20simple%20and%20effective%2C%20and%20holds%2020%20boys.html?m=2

Skinnereal wrote:I seem to recall that GW's stance is that:
If it looks cool, and is close enough to the dimensions of the GW kits, it's OK.
There are the issues of weapon fire arcs, fire ports and access points, so check they are fairly similar.

Yeah that's the problem with the MLRS, it's pretty well sized sadly, weapons arc doesn't /really/ matter in it's case, the hull mounted flamer's up front (or will be) and it's an indirect missile launcher but that scale issue...

I think it's great to scratch build stuff if that's what people enjoy doing.

I wouldn't build something up from plain card, though, it's too much work. I prefer to start with a model or parts and adapt them.

That said, I've just had a great idea for scratch building some Ork Bikes based on the concept of the concept of bringing small Space Roks down to earth to use as the body of the bike.

I'm going to get a bunch of these in suitable shapes and sizes and epoxy a load of gubbinz on to them.