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I caught a game last Thursday against a Space Marine list. Fortunately for me, I had my Tyranids; my opponent didn't want to see any more Necron armies just then. His is an interesting list - there are some units in there that were troublesome for Tyranids last edition. This will give me a chance to explore the rules in a slightly different way.

Space Marines

Pedro Kantor

5 Sternguard w/4xcombi-meltas & power fist, Drop Pod
Tech-marine w/Thunderfire Cannon

10 Tac Marines: Power weapon, plasma gun, lascannon (combat-squadded), Razorback w/t-l Assault Cannon
5 Scouts w/Sniper Rifles + Telion

Vindicator
Ironclad Dreadnought w/Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod
Ironclad Dreadnought w/melta, Drop Pod

Aegis Defense Line w/Quad Gun

Tyranids
The Swarmlord

3 HIve Guard
3 Hive Guard
7 Ymgarl

8 Genestealers
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
Tervigon w/Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
Tervigon w/Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Scything Talons

19 Gargoyles w/Adrenal Glands & Toxin Sacs

Mission: The Emperor's Will (3 objectives)
Deployment: Hammer & Anvil

We played with Mysterious Objectives, but no Mysterious Terrain.

The battlefield:

As seems almost inevitable, the poor Tyranids will have to assault out of the wasteland, into a fortified Marine position. Some day, I want to see the Tyranids hold the buildings!

We have 2 Ruins, 2 Impassable towers, some Area terrain, a couple hills, and the Aegis line. His Techmarine fortifies the building inside the SM deployment zone.

We roll up Warlord traits, and end up with a couple that prove meaningless this game (reroll shots at units near Objectives for the Swarmlord, and something even less useful for Pedro). The Swarmlord also replaces his innate psychic powers, and picks up Endurance, Warp Speed, Dominate, and Hallucination.

We determine that Turn 1 will be Night. Space Marines win the "go first" roll-off, and defer to the Tyranids - something about not wanting to spend a turn shooting at Tyranid units w/Stealth + Shrouding.

Tyranids do have the Objective advantage (2 to 1). Because we want something a little more cinematic than "Tyranids camp on two objectives in the back corners of their deployment zone," my objectives are a bit further forward, though still inside my zone. One goes on the triangular hill:


And the other goes in some area terrain:


We find out during Deployment that both are "Scatterfield" objectives (+1 to cover saves of a unit controlling the objective).

The SM objective is tucked away inside the (fortified) building:


It turns out to be a type '6' objective (enemy units charging a unit controlling the objective halve their Charge distance. That could be bad....

Tyranid deployment:


I know he has some Drop Pods with scoring Sternguard, and one of the Dreads is packing a heavy flamer, so "bubble wrap" is the order of the day. The Termagants spread out to protect the Tervigon, who will stay home with my ojbectives while everything else advances. The Thunderfire Cannon is a concern (lots of blasts, denying cover). My little Genestealer unit will Outflank, and my Ymgarl are dormant (on the ground floor of the SM "home" building - remember that only the bases of Ruins count as area terrain now).

Space Marine deployment:


Pedro joins the Sternguard in their Drop Pod, and the two Dreadnoughts remain in theirs. The single Tac squad combat-squads, leaving the lascannon in the building (using the stairs & windows to get better LoS), while the plasmagun/power weapon half are in the Razorback. The Scouts hole up behind the Defense line for max cover, with Telion manning the Quad gun.

Tyranids Turn 1



Space Marines Turn 1



Tyranids Turn 2



Space Marines Turn 2



Tyranids Turn 3



Space Marines Turn 3



Tyranids Turn 4



Space Marines Turn 4

All good, but now I'm wet thinking about the outcome of your battle.

As a tyranid player planning to play flyers, Aegis scares me a little.

Looking forward to you finishing this post.

I know how you feel about too many 'cron lists!!

L0rdF1end wrote:As a tyranid player planning to play flyers, Aegis scares me a little.

Looking forward to you finishing this post.

It's not really Aegis that should be scaring you - it's the minor issue that every single unit just needs to hit once to force a 3+ save or be grounded. If you have a lot of LoS blocking terrain, Swooping FMCs could be very interesting (in this battle, for example, a Flyrant could easily have swooped over to one of those towers, away from most retribution).

I'm going to leave my Flyrant at home for now, at least until we see if (and how) the issues around "Grounded" are FAQ'd. (Plus, I'm betting on a two-way Harpy kit, including an anti-flyer variant to appear in WD alongside the kit.)

Turn 2 is up; I'll finish up the rest tonight.

I don't believe that the termagants should of been able to assault the dreadnaught - page 76: "A unit can charge a vehicle in their charge sub-phase...however a unit cannot charge a vehicle that it cannot hurt - it must have some possibility...of being able to inflict at least a glancing hit."

Otherwise great rep so far and looking forward to seeing it completed!

Deeaybur wrote:I don't believe that the termagants should of been able to assault the dreadnaught - page 76: "A unit can charge a vehicle in their charge sub-phase...however a unit cannot charge a vehicle that it cannot hurt - it must have some possibility...of being able to inflict at least a glancing hit."

That is a really interesting point, and certainly not one we considered. We do have "Walkers assault, and are assaulted, like Infantry models" (p. 84), but I don't know if that's definitive. To YMDC! I've started a thread to discuss this.

Does gants had the Adrenal Glands/Furious Charge effects (buyed or shared from a Tervi) the turn they assaulted?
In this case I would consider the action legal because of the resulting ST4 vs back-AV 10.

Otherwise I must agree with Deeaybur

Toban wrote:Does gants had the Adrenal Glands/Furious Charge effects (buyed or shared from a Tervi) the turn they assaulted?
In this case I would consider the action legal because of the resulting ST4 vs back-AV 10.

(Elsewhere, please. But doesn't matter - you hit Walkers on the front armor unless they're immobilized.)

Afterthoughts:
Well, found a new rules interaction, with the Termagants charging the Dreadnoughts. I don't think it had huge impact on this game (I could have surrounded the Dreadnought in the middle with the Termagants instead, with the same effect - it couldn't move, and could kill 2 Termagants a turn), but it's good to flesh these things out early.

Elsewhere, the only real surprise is how fast gargoyles can cross the middle in "Hammer and Anvil." It shouldn't be surprising, I suppose - 24" is the usual distance between deployment zones - but it seems to consistently shock my opponents. Ymgarl remain a fantastic unit. Termagants can reliably kill AV10 vehicles now on the charge. "Smash" is a great rule for beating up vehicles with Monstrous Creatures. And Hallucination is a really potent power against non-Fearless units.

This report is finished, BTW.

Janthkin, congrats on your solid victory. Smash is very effective against vehicles. Seems like you have no problem facing reserve units.

I've been playing a similar list, Janthkin, and just been having great results with it. Mine is a little different but man, Swarmy with Biomancy is nuts, and Gants are amazing.

Nids are really, really good so far this edition.

When it comes to tank shocking a unit surrounding a tank, the rules simply state that pivoting alone isn't sufficient to cause a tank shock, however the way I read it is as long as the vehicle is going to move even a fraction of an inch forward after pivoting, then it meets the requirement and therefore even the pivoting in this case does count as a tank shock.

But most certainly this is the same vague wording that has essentially long existed for Tank Shock so YMMV on what you think. I personally would have chosen to play it the way you did.

Janthkin thank you for another useful report.

Now that is finished may I ask you a question that, I'm sure, every other Nid player is asking to himself right now?

What do you think about regular Stealers right now? I mean only regular, not Ymgarls.

I/we know how you usualy love/use them, big units, aggressive to counter-attack positioning depending on the adversary/terrains etc but now?

Does they still keep a primary position now hat all the outflank/infiltrate assault possibilities are down?

May eventually numerical identic units of Hormies (point wisely cheap) cover the same roll now a days?

Ah, stealers. As the batrep title suggests, it's early days yet, so much of the following still needs some additional testing. But to quote myself from a Tactics thread:

Janthkin wrote:They still work in a few ways:
1) Outflanking. No, you won't be assaulting from Reserves, but they'll more reliably arrive on turn 2. If you're planning on Outflanking, you should also be planning on having a Tervigon close enough to throw FNP in their direction, and use the new version of Fleet to get you a more reliable Run roll (for getting into cover).

2) Infiltrating. Very little change in this use case - you're still looking for LARGE units of poisoned stealers (I like 18, but 14+ works), you're still infiltrating into cover everywhere you can, you're still throwing FNP on them on turn 1, and you're still planning on a Turn 2 assault.

Things that got (relatively) better: generally more reliable threat radius (with Fleet rerolls of selected Charge dice); a few insanely good psychic buffs available via the new powers (throw Invisibility on them from the Swarmlord, and laugh); better reasons to bring the Broodlord.

Paired with a large brood of Gargoyles, the large brood of Infiltrating Genestealers still works just fine.

Interesting to see you play without your big block of nasty stealers. Then again, at 1.5K, I guess something's gotta give.

jy2 wrote:Interesting to see you play without your big block of nasty stealers. Then again, at 1.5K, I guess something's gotta give.

And it felt a little weird - it's like reaching for your toolbox, and not having a hammer. But with the increase in lethality for the Tervigons (2+ rerollable poison and/or S10 Smash attacks, anyone?), and the Swarmlord's increased psychic potency, I'm getting by so far.

Awesome report, if a little short.

Just a friendly reminder (personally, I always forget this) that the Swarmlord also gives a bonus to your reserves. Everything on turn 2 and turn 3 comes in on a 2+

Interesting to see the Gargoyles as an "attack" unit. I usually just run 10 basic gargoyles to give cover, eat an overwatch, etc. Have you tried running Hormagaunts in their place? Higher damage output at a higher initiative, only a tiny bit slower, and scoring.

Siphen wrote:Awesome report, if a little short.

Just a friendly reminder (personally, I always forget this) that the Swarmlord also gives a bonus to your reserves. Everything on turn 2 and turn 3 comes in on a 2+

I know. It was a pair of 1's; the Ymgarl were having really GOOD dreams, I guess.

Interesting to see the Gargoyles as an "attack" unit. I usually just run 10 basic gargoyles to give cover, eat an overwatch, etc. Have you tried running Hormagaunts in their place? Higher damage output at a higher initiative, only a tiny bit slower, and scoring.

I'd try out a mess of Hormagaunts, if I could stomach the idea of painting them. That two-piece head arrangement is just too annoying. But I'd probably keep the Gargoyles anyway. They're reliably faster-moving, have a gun (regardless of how puny, shooting off 20 or so bolt pistols occasionally is useful), and most importantly - they're significantly cheaper (5 gargoyles for the price of 4 hormies, equally equipped).

If you've got 40-60 Hormagaunts available, I think you could build a really nasty list around them. But I get by pretty well with termagants and gargoyles.

I am using a unit of 30 Hormagants right now with only Poison and using Swarmy to give them FA for the turn they charge.

Trying to decide if it's better than another Tervie, but liking it so far.

I feel sorry for the Space Marines... All those specual weapons dieing like that without even killing anything. Even the Dreadnaught. All those lost points, like using broken guns.

I like how you set up your guys though... Rap and squeeze.

Hey Janthkin,

What are your thoughts on the right number of Tervigons? At 1500, I am going back and forth between 2-3, and wanted to hear your opinion.

In place of the 3rd Tervie, I am running 30 Poison Hormagants. I find that unit hits quite hard, particularly with Swarmy giving them FA. However, 2 Tervies are easier to kill then 3 (obviously) and you run the risk of pooping out faster with 2.

What have you found to be the best ratio?

Thanks.

Reecius wrote:Hey Janthkin,

What are your thoughts on the right number of Tervigons? At 1500, I am going back and forth between 2-3, and wanted to hear your opinion.

In place of the 3rd Tervie, I am running 30 Poison Hormagants. I find that unit hits quite hard, particularly with Swarmy giving them FA. However, 2 Tervies are easier to kill then 3 (obviously) and you run the risk of pooping out faster with 2.

What have you found to be the best ratio?

Thanks.

Dude, I've *never* run 3 Tervigons, at any point level. Even given the boost to monstrous creatures in 6e, I still don't think I would - two gives you resiliency, a pretty good chance at making at least 3 more scoring units, and redundancy for Catalyst. That last chunk of points is better spent in getting additional pressure on your opponent early, so he can't focus fire on your two Tervigons & Swarmlord - for me, that's Gargoyles or Ymgarl. Give him something that he HAS to kill, but that losing won't affect your ability to win the game. At higher point levels, go get a T-fex - he's REALLY scary these days, given what happened to power weapons.

I do miss the old Preferred Enemy rules - Swarmy + Gargoyles was scarier that way.

I have a question about the Aegis Defense line. When a player places that is it supposed to be 3" away from other terrain?

I played a game the other day where we had the terrian preplaced and the other player had the defense line. He was able to place it similar to what it looked like in your game and it made it almost impossable to get to his deployment zone without having to make a difficult terrain check and gave him cover on his whole side. We had the hammer and anvil deployment also. This would suck for nids because you would strike at int 1.

I thought in the rule book it has something about placing terrain and the restrictions.

@Janthkin

I am finding that with 3 Tervies I have better odds to Tarpit unit, score, and throw Gants around to tie stuff up.

I'll take a look at a T-Fex, I know you have good results with it. I think with reduced armor, it will be even better as it will have less targets to take on. Plus, with a Venomthrope and FnP, he's a tough nut to crack.

The Hormagants are pretty damn solid though, I definitely like them.

And you know I agree with you on Ymgarls! I NEVER play without a unit of the, too good not to use.

Hmm, I guess it's more play testing, ftw! Thanks for the input.

2 Troop Tervigons, combined with 2 broods of 20 super Hormagaunts seems to wok rather well for me. Add in Venomthropes and it takes a damn lot of firepower to take them all down, and that gets even better when you start throwing Endurance around. They also get absolutely disgusting if you should happen to enfeeble their target.

If your opponent is managing to take down all those gaunts, its practically a given that the Tervigons will be alive and spewing out more gants as meatshields and scoring units.

As to Ymgarls, they always seem to me to be "the 4 slot" for Eites. I love them, and they are easily worth the points, they just dont quite fill any of the gaps Id create by dropping any elite slot.

I really like Ymgarls and have had good success with them, but man the Doom in a Pod can be so good especially with more foot on the board in 6th. I think the Ymgarls are more reliable when they come in and the Doom is more risky. The Doom can walk through an entire army by himself or he can buy a krak missile to the face and fail his first save. He is defiantly a high risk and high reward option. In my mind though he has always been most effective against Tyranids and if more Bug players start to show up he will become harder to take out of the army.

The Doom with Iron Arm is stupid good. Not very reliable at all, but when it happens, wow. If the other guy doesn't have the tools to fight him, it's pretty crazy. Essentially creates a 12" no fly zone around him.

@Jifel

If you don't run Ymgarls, what do you take in the 3 Elites slots? I am curious.

Something to consider about sticking Venomthropes behind Tfexes (since it was mentioned in this thread): The new Tervigon/Tfex model is big enough to block line of site to a V-thrope if you turn it sideways. It'll provide constant 5+ saves no matter what for most of the game, and since they can't shoot it, you only need one.

Of course, it does take up an elite slot, but it's less needed nowadays.

I think the Venomthrope is better in this edition than previously, personally. I am definitely including one in my list.

But yeah, I agree, the elite slot is just too crowded for Nids. If only Hive Guard were heavy support.

At 2k the double FOC is the way.

Without necessarily be overkill a little Tyr.Prime (an IC thank god) will let us to take the usual 6 Hive Guards, one unit of 7/8 Ymgarls and a lonely (but useful) Venomthrope. Why not even 2 units of Ymgarls..


Something like this:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/466472.page#4595202


At 1500 however I don't know..