Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Recently I had a game with my deathwing, my list mainly had them mainly armed with Lightning claws. As my dark angels codex clearly states they Ignore armour saves and re-roll wounds I took this to them actually ignoring armour saves. My opponent refused to play me as my army wasn't in the spirit of the game... I'd also just like to say he plays an incredibly broken black templars list, obviously thinking this was too much of an omission from the new rulebook?

My question is on p50 of my codex it clearly says "lightning claws ignore armour saves and re-roll any to wound dice that fail to cause a wound" as this has not been FAQ'd I am correct in still believing/following my codex rules? .. it was fine when I did this with 5th.

My opponent was unsuccessful in finding any rule of shred of evidence to support that they should be "ap3" despite searching for a number of minutes on his Iphone and having the rulebook present.

Any clarification would be much appreciated.

No, Dark Angels Lightning Claws appear to be unupdated, so you were right RAW. I'd expect it to be an oversight though, as there's no reason for Dark Angels to not have the same rules as everyone else and, as your opponent did, I'd argue that it's not the spirit of the rules. I'd still play you though.

As a side note, what kind of list does he play. I'd argue that there's no such thing as a "broken" Black Templars list.

EDIT: This should've been in YMDC, not Proposed Rules.

Bloody typical. Last time this happened, the Marines got their 3++ Shields, Heavy 2 Missiles and an improved PotMS. Meanwhile, we were stuck with the crummy old gear. Well now the boot is on the other foot, but of course that would be gamey and we play by everyone elses rules.

RAW, I'd say you're probably in the clear. RAI definitely not, and I doubt this would last in a moderated tournament. Certainly not something that would make friends.
Although I have to say it wouldn't be that bad from a balance perspective. It would actually restore the Claws as a valid weapon choice alongside the beauty of a 3++ or the general reliability of a Fister.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:No, Dark Angels Lightning Claws appear to be unupdated, so you were right RAW. I'd expect it to be an oversight though, as there's no reason for Dark Angels to not have the same rules as everyone else and, as your opponent did, I'd argue that it's not the spirit of the rules. I'd still play you though.

As a side note, what kind of list does he play. I'd argue that there's no such thing as a "broken" Black Templars list.

EDIT: This should've been in YMDC, not Proposed Rules.

He plays squads of 5 terms with 2 cyclones in each, squads of 5 marines with 1 lascannon and 1 plasma gun in each... He basically picked a codex that wasFAQ'd to exploit the rules.

Further looking into the dark angels Lightening claw entry it doesn't even say there a power weapon in their codex.

Strictly speaking from the rules, am I correct in assuming they do not use the 6th edition rulebook rules until their FAQ'd into it?

MarineOmega wrote:He plays squads of 5 terms with 2 cyclones in each, squads of 5 marines with 1 lascannon and 1 plasma gun in each... He basically picked a codex that wasFAQ'd to exploit the rules

As opposed to the guy playing Deathwing?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

MarineOmega wrote:He plays squads of 5 terms with 2 cyclones in each, squads of 5 marines with 1 lascannon and 1 plasma gun in each... He basically picked a codex that wasFAQ'd to exploit the rules

As opposed to the guy playing Deathwing?

I fail so see your point? I can have 2 cyclones, no marine army can. My terminators are just fearless and can be in mixed squads, apart from this there exactly the same as the marines codex.

As the others have said, RAW you are right... but they SHOULD be normal LC's. Its one thing when there are 'unusual' weapons from older editions that say they ignore armor saves, but to me a lightening claw is a lightening claw is a lightening claw.

MarineOmega wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

MarineOmega wrote:He plays squads of 5 terms with 2 cyclones in each, squads of 5 marines with 1 lascannon and 1 plasma gun in each... He basically picked a codex that wasFAQ'd to exploit the rules

As opposed to the guy playing Deathwing?

I fail so see your point? I can have 2 cyclones, no marine army can. My terminators are just fearless and can be in mixed squads, apart from this there exactly the same as the marines codex.

Deathwing gained 3++ Storm Shields and updated Cyclone Missile Launchers for their TROOPS from the very same FAQ. Having a 5-man squad of TH/SS Terminators that are scoring and have a CML makes Deathwing Terminators one of the best troops choices in the game. Black Templars gained from the FAQ; Dark Angels gained more.

Tactical Terminators, TH/SS Terminators and 5-man lasplas squads are the three good units in Codex: Black Templars apart from expensive Characters. Calling the use of them an "abuse" is just silly. If it's the fact that BT gained stuff that the points weren't calculated for in the first place then I suggest that you throw away your army, because 2+-saves got much better in 6th and CLEARLY using Terminators now is abusing the rules!

/rant

Texanity wrote:As the others have said, RAW you are right... but they SHOULD be normal LC's. Its one thing when there are 'unusual' weapons from older editions that say they ignore armor saves, but to me a lightening claw is a lightening claw is a lightening claw.

lightening claw? Is his claw Lighter than the others?

Is there a Darkening claw that goes on the other hand?

In the rule book it does indeed say that all lightning claws are ap3 that's as RAW as it gets. All attacks are atributed an ap value now.

The DA faq doesn't mention them, so as most people have been saying, you are playing RAW.
You know that it's not RAI, and yet you are still playing with it, so it's kind of a deusche move.

In fact, if I had a choice between playing you or playing someone else, I'd pick the other guy 100% of the time. No reason to dampen my fun when you've already shown that you will defend RAW at all costs. That's going to lead to some headaches.

racta, just because people will defend the RAW with their life on this forum does not mean that that is how they actually play. I will fight tooth and nail against anyone who says that DA Lightning Claws do not ignore armour saves and must use the rulebook version. However, I would not play this way because I don't think it is what was intended.

bagtagger wrote:In the rule book it does indeed say that all lightning claws are ap3 that's as RAW as it gets. All attacks are atributed an ap value now.

There are, I'm afraid, two problems with this depending on your outlook. One is that the two rules don't conflict - the claws can be assigned an AP value for 3 (which would be important for vehicle damage rolls) and yet still ignore armour saves, which is a separate function of AP.
If you don't agree with that - the codex still overrides the BRB.

A survey of the rules breaks LCs into two camps:

Ignores Armour Saves: DA (50) and CSM (84)

Lightning Claw per BRB: BT (no entry), BA (57), SM (98), SW (60, + some extra rule).

Just tell your buddy to play them as Chaos instead. Then you have to eat his ignore armor save claws too.

Homer

Well, Codex > Rule book still works as an argument.

Ancient Codex > Rule book, is a pretty weak one though.

I would imagine that you use the rules from the BRB for lightning claws, not the rules from our ancient book.

I also imagine GW are more likely to dream up a way to make you spend more money, before comming up with a sensible rule.

Whatever happened to Deathwing squads carrying 2 heavy weapons anyway? Was that taken away in 3rd or 4th?

You know, if the DA codex had a weaker definition for Lightning Claws, say something like DA LC are AP4 and only re-roll a single failed to wound roll per round of combat, then I would imagine his opponent would making the complete opposite argument.

People really need to learn to read FAQs. In every single codex FAQ it states

"Note that this is an older codex, written for a previous edition...You'll also find some weapons in this codex are written out long hand rather than using weapon profile format in the Wh 40k rulebook. Don't worry thiese are functionally identical, unless otherwise noted in this document."

This essentially says unless the FAQ says so refer to the rulebook rules for the weapons found there.

Other wise guess what none of the space marine chapters other than DA have rules for lightning claws as it does not change the statement to look in the assault rules for the Lighting Claw rules, which are not in that chapter....

Essentially the BRB makes all lightning claws AP3 shred, unless your FAQ says otherwise.

If you disagree with this then DA power weapons and Powerfists have no rules.

FAQ's wrote: Don't worry these are functionally identical, unless otherwise noted in this document."

This is an interesting statement in the FAQ's.
To me this means that DA LC and BRB LC are identical. They both are AP3, Shred AND ignore armor saves, unless the FAQ says otherwise.

40k-noob wrote:

FAQ's wrote: Don't worry these are functionally identical, unless otherwise noted in this document."

This is an interesting statement in the FAQ's.
To me this means that DA LC and BRB LC are identical. They both are AP3, Shred AND ignore armor saves, unless the FAQ says otherwise.

It means that the rules in the Codex are the same as those in the BRB... which is demonstrably false. As such, we have to default to Codex>BRB until GW FAQs it.

Or, it could mean that the profiles in the Codices work the same way as the BRB ones, as in they're read the same way, but not nessecarily the same rules. This makes more sense to me, but either way we default to Codex>BRB.

Old rule for ALL Power Weapons (LC included): No Armor Saves. (Old BRB p42 4/5th Paragraph)
New Rules for ALL Power Weapons: Given specific AP ratings depending on weapon type. (New BRB p60 for LC, p61 for others)
New BRB trumps old codex with updated rules. Not hard to work out.

Otherwise, Your DA cannot snapfire or overwatch.

helgrenze wrote:Old rule for ALL Power Weapons (LC included): No Armor Saves. (Old BRB p42 4/5th Paragraph)
New Rules for ALL Power Weapons: Given specific AP ratings depending on weapon type. (New BRB p60 for LC, p61 for others)
New BRB trumps old codex with updated rules. Not hard to work out.

Otherwise, Your DA cannot snapfire or overwatch.

Snapfire and Overwatch are separate rules. There is no corresponding rule in the 'dex to conflict with these so how can they be negated?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

FAQ's wrote: Don't worry these are functionally identical, unless otherwise noted in this document."

This is an interesting statement in the FAQ's.
To me this means that DA LC and BRB LC are identical. They both are AP3, Shred AND ignore armor saves, unless the FAQ says otherwise.

It means that the rules in the Codex are the same as those in the BRB... which is demonstrably false. As such, we have to default to Codex>BRB until GW FAQs it.

Or, it could mean that the profiles in the Codices work the same way as the BRB ones, as in they're read the same way, but not nessecarily the same rules. This makes more sense to me, but either way we default to Codex>BRB.

No we don't the FAQ says use the BRB rules unless the FAQ states otherwise. What it is saying is that Lightning Claws are all functionally identical and to use the BRB rules unless your Codex FAQ says other wise...it does not so you follow the BRB.

Otherwise if you want to use Codex trumps BRB in all cases, DA have no access to functional Powerfists, or Power Weapons, until they are FAQ'd.

Codex trumps BRB is negated by the fact that the FAQ tells you to refer to the BRB for statlines and wargear due to your codex being outdated.

How old is the DA book?

Basically, you are saying that you can just use rules that favor your army while ignoring that those rules have been trumped by the newest edition of the main rules.
And also ignoring that AP3 still kills Marines of any flavor due to the near universal 3+ Armor save for Marines.
And also that Invul saves still count vs low AP attacks.

helgrenze wrote:How old is the DA book?

Basically, you are saying that you can just use rules that favor your army while ignoring that those rules have been trumped by the newest edition of the main rules.
And also ignoring that AP3 still kills Marines of any flavor due to the near universal 3+ Armor save for Marines.
And also that Invul saves still count vs low AP attacks.

The DA book was released in March of 2007.

Only 3 "Current" codexes are older those being Eldar, Tau, and Black Templars (BT Being the oldest released in November 2005)

Look faq>codex>brb
When the FAQ says look to the brb for the weapons profiles for some of the weapons listed in your book then you have to go by the brb. I would argue that any weapon that is listed in the brb is in every army used as the brb due to the faq's.

It is also not a logical trap or loop, it is akin to a lower court being overruled by a higher court but the supreme court then deciding that the lower court was right the first time.

correct, as otherwise none of the books tell you to refer to the weapons section of the BRB. The FAQ trumps the codex and tells you to see the BRB for your weapons (unless the FAQ tells you otherwise.)

DA lightning claws are lightning claws. Only reason they have a special rule covering them in the dex is because their codex is so out of date.

In previous edition they fell into the group of power weapons which all power weapons ignored armor saves. In this edition power weapons have an AP value now so not all of them ignore armor saves (obviously) as they did before.

DA lightning claws don't need a "FAQ" because they are just lightning claws as was mentioned before. Refer to BRB for what lightning claws do in 6th edition. I would also refuse to play any DA player that would say otherwise.

bagtagger wrote:In the rule book it does indeed say that all lightning claws are ap3 that's as RAW as it gets. All attacks are atributed an ap value now.

Primary issue is that the DA codex states their lightning claws ignore armor. So do the BT codex I believe. If their FAQ wasn't updated to change the rules for the lightning claws, then sadly for all the moaning players with newer codex, the old boys have better lighting claws than you. Suck it up.

juraigamer wrote:Primary issue is that the DA codex states their lightning claws ignore armor.

That is because they are a 4th ed codex.

This is a direct quote:

FAQ's wrote:
Note that this is an older Codex, written for a previous edition of the rules. You will therefor need to consult the Reference section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook for an up to date list of Unit Types and Vehicle Hull Points. You'll also find that some of the weapons in this Codex are written out longhand, rather than using the weapon profile format in the Warhmmer 40,000 rulebook. Don't worry - these are functionally identical, unless otherwise noted in this document.

The FAQ tells you to look to the Ref. Section for Unit Types and Hull Points, not weapons. It just says that the codex has the weapon rules written out as opposed to using the profile setup in the BRB.

Not sure where people are saying the FAQ tell you to refer to the BRB for weapons. Perhaps there is another document that I am missing. If so I would like to see it.