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Why only have chapters of 1000 astartes why not get as many as possible to totally conquer the universe in the name of the God -Emperor and also ensure the safety of all mankind?

Just asking.

They tried that. It was called the Great Crusade, and it was led by a guy named Horus. You may have heard of him...

hmm I also know how that ended

but what if there was no war-master like Horus and each chapter waged war as a single unit.

Guardsman76 wrote:hmm I also know how that ended

but what if there was no war-master like Horus and each chapter waged war as a single unit.

Then mankind would be nearly unstoppable.

so that's a win win situation surely?

Chapters where capped at 1000 to avoid the possibility of wide scale rebellion ever occurring again. by ensuring that any rebellion would be small and manageable. Space marine chapters often team up in large conflicts. Like when the macherian crusade worlds rebelled 100 space marine chapters combined efforts to put it down. (still took over a century though)

Really to make any sense, Chapters should be 10,000 Marines with 10 companies of 1,000. Then I could see Chapters being able to do some of their missions, even with the current tactics and methods of attack they use it still makes no sense given the limitations of an Astartes, who are not invincible.

Then again the SoB should be more then ~50,000 or so Battle Sisters, GW is bad with size.

Yeah if all chapters were made 10,000 strong then mankind would rule the universe because that would ensure they can outnumber any force against them unless its orks or traitor guardsmen but still if the chapters were enlarged surely that would put an end to the danger faced by mankind?

I always thought it made more sense for each legion cohort (10 000) to become a chapter in the second founding because you are absolutely right, GW is really bad at matching numbers with capability. given that marines are always at war they should only be as effective as they are in the fluff if they have larger numbers to replace losses and take part in some of stupidly large battles they are always winning.

Black Templars have around 6-10k marines in their chapter, but then again. The inquisition loves them.

If you need a reason, look to the Badab War. It's also hard to grow extra marines beyond what you have. They need geneseed and it's not explicit how many marines you get per gland and many initiates die during the growth and the time and energy involved. I think 1k marines is supposed to keep them mobile and efficient. If you lose a chapter, it's significant, but not a huge loss. You lose a legion and, well you see what happens.

Harriticus wrote:Really to make any sense, Chapters should be 10,000 Marines with 10 companies of 1,000. Then I could see Chapters being able to do some of their missions, even with the current tactics and methods of attack they use it still makes no sense given the limitations of an Astartes, who are not invincible.

Then again the SoB should be more then ~50,000 or so Battle Sisters, GW is bad with size.

Oh, I don't know. I just finished The Emperor's Gift, and the Grey Knight squad featured in there took something like 12 casualties over a minimum of six years. In the two years covered in the book they suffered three casualties.

I think a lot of people imagine that the Astartes are too small in number to get anything done, but on closer inspection I feel they do the job adequately.

Kaldor wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Really to make any sense, Chapters should be 10,000 Marines with 10 companies of 1,000. Then I could see Chapters being able to do some of their missions, even with the current tactics and methods of attack they use it still makes no sense given the limitations of an Astartes, who are not invincible.

Then again the SoB should be more then ~50,000 or so Battle Sisters, GW is bad with size.

Oh, I don't know. I just finished The Emperor's Gift, and the Grey Knight squad featured in there took something like 12 casualties over a minimum of six years. In the two years covered in the book they suffered three casualties.

I think a lot of people imagine that the Astartes are too small in number to get anything done, but on closer inspection I feel they do the job adequately.

The Grey Knights are on some whole other level though...can't really compare them to a "normal" Astartes.

That doesn't discount the fact that when faced with a combat zone in which they are vastly outnumbered and bound to take heavy casualties (as they have done in many fluff books) it could take several centuries to get the chapter back up to 100 - 90% capability, and that is assuming that during the centuries that follow casualties that are taken are trivial and easily replaced. Its not that marines don't get the job done. in the fluff they are worth 50 or more guardsmen in tactical capability alone, but are worth 100 times that if killed.

The numbers for casualties vs replacement / long term effectiveness just don't add up.

razor5647 wrote:The numbers for casualties vs replacement / long term effectiveness just don't add up.

What numbers are you using though?

What I mean is, how frequent are those defeats, and what rate can a chapter turn recruits out at? Do we have enough of the numbers to make an in-depth analysis?

The codex clearly states that it takes 120 years for the ultramarines to replace its 1st company after the tyrannic wars and another 10 after that to regain 100% effectiveness, yet during that period several major conflicts occurred and whether the smurfs won or lost is irrelevant casualties should be expected and during this period losing even 25 marines is heavy blow.
And IIRC the smurfs are the chapter that recruits the fastest given its many recruiting worlds and extreme efficiency.

razor5647 wrote:The codex clearly states that it takes 120 years for the ultramarines to replace its 1st company after the tyrannic wars and another 10 after that to regain 100% effectiveness, yet during that period several major conflicts occurred and whether the smurfs won or lost is irrelevant casualties should be expected and during this period losing even 25 marines is heavy blow.
And IIRC the smurfs are the chapter that recruits the fastest given its many recruiting worlds and extreme efficiency.

Again, thats the 1st Company....the vets, the guys who get the honor of wearing Termie Armor. In the Ultramarines you don't just get recruited into the 1st company like that, nor are they going to put just "any marine" in it. And 100% effectiveness does not mean they were at 1000 strong.

I understand that but that is the best 10% of an extremely limited number and the codex states "finally replaced losses incurred from the battle of mecragge" that implies the actual total number of marines not just the loss of the first company. yet during this period they fight as a unified chapter against the eldar at the battle of the sepulcher and it is stated that the eldar inflict a number of casualties over coarse of the battle (takes several days).

In tyranid wars there was also the BA.
so : 1000 is perfect. if they need more they just ask it and they come.having more means that you need more recuits, something that may destroy the planet.
IIRC only the 10-20% of the newcomes become SM in the end.....

razor5647 wrote:I understand that but that is the best 10% of an extremely limited number and the codex states "finally replaced losses incurred from the battle of mecragge" that implies the actual total number of marines not just the loss of the first company. yet during this period they fight as a unified chapter against the eldar at the battle of the sepulcher and it is stated that the eldar inflict a number of casualties over coarse of the battle (takes several days).

You do have a point with your post...however, with the fluff and where the IoM stands, its much safer to break them up in 1000 man chapters. That Horus caused quite a rukus with his troops......

razor5647 wrote:I understand that but that is the best 10% of an extremely limited number and the codex states "finally replaced losses incurred from the battle of mecragge" that implies the actual total number of marines not just the loss of the first company. yet during this period they fight as a unified chapter against the eldar at the battle of the sepulcher and it is stated that the eldar inflict a number of casualties over coarse of the battle (takes several days).

The first company are veterans promoted by merit, so of course would take forever to replace. But there's no reason it would take so long to replace bog-standard marines who can be promoted over night out of the scout company.

And the battle against the Eldar: How many losses did they take? And what are their intake numbers? Length of training, success rate, and do those casualties refer to KIA or simply wounded?

Fido198674 wrote:That Horus caused quite a rukus with his troops......

Kaldor wrote:

razor5647 wrote:I understand that but that is the best 10% of an extremely limited number and the codex states "finally replaced losses incurred from the battle of mecragge" that implies the actual total number of marines not just the loss of the first company. yet during this period they fight as a unified chapter against the eldar at the battle of the sepulcher and it is stated that the eldar inflict a number of casualties over coarse of the battle (takes several days).

The first company are veterans promoted by merit, so of course would take forever to replace. But there's no reason it would take so long to replace bog-standard marines who can be promoted over night out of the scout company.

And the battle against the Eldar: How many losses did they take? And what are their intake numbers? Length of training, success rate, and do those casualties refer to KIA or simply wounded?

Well, that story doesn't have "numbers" in it. I know that Avatar ripped some termies a new one. As for replacing bog-marines with scouts, they too have to earn there place among the battle brothers. Plus, if you just started grabbing scouts and shoving them in power armor, you would have close to no scouts! I guess that plays into recruitment rate and success rates, which are quite low for SM of any chapter.


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razor5647 wrote:

Fido198674 wrote:That Horus caused quite a rukus with his troops......

Without a doubt..

Perhaps GW could just be more careful in the fluff. ensuring that marines take more practical risks in times of recovery so they do not to make it appear as though numbers are no object because they are limited and should be better acknowledged as such.

Kaldor wrote:

The first company are veterans promoted by merit, so of course would take forever to replace. But there's no reason it would take so long to replace bog-standard marines who can be promoted over night out of the scout company.

And the battle against the Eldar: How many losses did they take? And what are their intake numbers? Length of training, success rate, and do those casualties refer to KIA or simply wounded?

It is stated that the entire chapter was present at the battle and that during the battle and that during a renewed eldar assault the battle line buckled and was only salvaged when calgar destroyed an avatar by himself, references are also made to the loss of at least one company commander. now it an entire chapter is fighting and they begin to crumble it is just not possible that they received little to no casualties.

also scouts take years to create unto themselves, it is not just a matter of promoting a few people each neophite is an investment into the chapter and takes years just on a biological level to become capable of joining the ranks of the scout company, then scouts must serve as recon and support for many engagements before they are even considered for implantation of black carapace and thus service among-st the ranks of standard marines.

Fido198674 wrote:Well, that story doesn't have "numbers" in it.

Which is rather my point. The stories rarely go into enough detail to really decide if the casualties are too steep for any Marine chapter to endure. The more we look into the matter, the less clear it is.

So it seems a bit dubious to insist that 1,000 marines is too few. How can we know that?

It's a common tendency among posters to say "Marines could never fight the battles they do, they'd suffer too many casualties" but we never get any more information about what battles they fight, and just how many casualties they'd actually be taking. Nor do we get any concrete numbers on the recruiting process.


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razor5647 wrote:now it an entire chapter is fighting and they begin to crumble it is just not possible that they received little to no casualties.

No, maybe not. But how many are we talking? Fifty? Five hundred? Considering the amazing recuperative abilities of a Marine, and the fact that 'beginning to crumble' is a nebulous term that is impossible to clarify, we could quite literally be talking anything from five to five hundred. We just don't know.

We do know that it would be an incredibly rare battle, and losses taken on that scale (whatever it is) would be correspondingly rare.

also scouts take years to create unto themselves, it is not just a matter of promoting a few people each neophite is an investment into the chapter and takes years just on a biological level to become capable of joining the ranks of the scout company, then scouts must serve as recon and support for many engagements before they are even considered for implantation of black carapace and thus service among-st the ranks of standard marines.

Length of time taken to create/train is important, but not as important as intake rates. If I intake five thousand recruits every day, then it doesn't matter if it takes ten days or ten years to train them. I'll still be producing five thousand graduates every day.

the scout company counts as part of the 1000 total number and neophytes take at least 8 years to genetically create as they start at 12 and received there final implant to make them scout capable at around 20 (according to creating space marines article) and since neophytes require implantation of gene seed a chapter will not have huge amounts because gene seed is a very important resource to chapters. also only around 15 - 20% of initiates survive before becoming neophytes and not all neophytes survive the many implantation processes.

In short you cannot just recruit 5 thousand neophytes a day and replace losses on the fly. it is in fact a process taking decades and requires years of advance planning and careful management of resources.

razor5647 wrote:the scout company counts as part of the 1000 total number and neophytes take at least 8 years to genetically create as they start at 12 and received there final implant to make them scout capable at around 20 (according to creating space marines article) and since neophytes require implantation of gene seed a chapter will not have huge amounts because gene seed is a very important resource to chapters. also only around 15 - 20% of initiates survive before becoming neophytes and not all neophytes survive the many implantation processes.

In short you cannot just recruit 5 thousand neophytes a day and replace losses on the fly. it is in fact a process taking decades and requires years of advance planning and careful management of resources.

The SW codex is different in this howeve, as they only take the best of the best of the best warriors from the normal pop of the planet. Make you wonder, what exactly ARE the recruitment standards of a "normal" SM chapter.

razor5647 wrote:the scout company counts as part of the 1000 total number and neophytes take at least 8 years to genetically create as they start at 12 and received there final implant to make them scout capable at around 20 (according to creating space marines article) and since neophytes require implantation of gene seed a chapter will not have huge amounts because gene seed is a very important resource to chapters. also only around 15 - 20% of initiates survive before becoming neophytes and not all neophytes survive the many implantation processes.

In short you cannot just recruit 5 thousand neophytes a day and replace losses on the fly. it is in fact a process taking decades and requires years of advance planning and careful management of resources.

Yes, but length of time training is not as important as the rate of recruitment. If the chapter knows that an 'average' attrition rate is 50 casualties a year, and that only 10% of recruits survive to become battle brothers, then wouldn't they just recruit 500 aspirants each year? Hell, why not recruit 1,000 per year, and only select the best recruits, which then gives you extra recruits to draw from if you have a bad year.

Kaldor wrote:

razor5647 wrote:the scout company counts as part of the 1000 total number and neophytes take at least 8 years to genetically create as they start at 12 and received there final implant to make them scout capable at around 20 (according to creating space marines article) and since neophytes require implantation of gene seed a chapter will not have huge amounts because gene seed is a very important resource to chapters. also only around 15 - 20% of initiates survive before becoming neophytes and not all neophytes survive the many implantation processes.

In short you cannot just recruit 5 thousand neophytes a day and replace losses on the fly. it is in fact a process taking decades and requires years of advance planning and careful management of resources.

Yes, but length of time training is not as important as the rate of recruitment. If the chapter knows that an 'average' attrition rate is 50 casualties a year, and that only 10% of recruits survive to become battle brothers, then wouldn't they just recruit 500 aspirants each year? Hell, why not recruit 1,000 per year, and only select the best recruits, which then gives you extra recruits to draw from if you have a bad year.

It is for a SM though, wouldn't it be? If these guys are suppose to be the elite of the elites, but the recruitment pool is sub-par, wont that reflect on the chapter later on down the road? Its not JUST the implants that make a SM what he is.

It does make sense that chapters would be able to cover expected losses by calculating the average rate of losses and setting up recruitment as such. when you put it that way I suppose that levels of initiates would be at proper levels in the case of emergencies. it would however still take an average of 5 years to replace losses greater than expected due to the fact that neophytes would not receive genetic materiel until a place in the scout company was readily available, to preserve valuable gene seed of course.

so as long as a chapter maintains a healthy supply of initiates ready for genetic materiel and neophyte initiation, I suppose standard battlefield losses numbering anywhere from 25 - 100 a year could theoretically be replaced in batches every 5 - 7 of years (adjusted for scout training and support service as well as neophyte maturity) by planning ahead.

The logic seems sound.


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Obviously this would occur continuously so as to not make the fighting force ineffective in between batches of new scouts.