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Kaldor wrote:

Vaerros wrote:The works of fiction have them suffering 'manageable' losses, where realistically I would expect force-destroying levels of losses.

Where? When? How often? What losses?

Fall of Damnos(to some degree) and the final Salamander novel come to mind, as far as some examples of serious losses.

I have to admit, I haven't read either novel. Could you give us a rundown?

To the first point, I don't have anything specific to cite. I would simply say that if a force of SMs face off against, say, Tyranids in a typical Black Library fashion(fairly large engagements to massive battles) I would expect a lot of losses or deployment at Chapter-level strength necessary to repel them. They're generally not alone(there's Guard and PDF) but it's not uncommon(in the fiction, that is) for SMs to represent a main part of the Imperial military presence.

To the second point, jogging my memory, I believe the Ultramarines took quite a few losses in Fall of Damnos(where they face off against freshly-awakened Necrons). The final Salamander novel involves the Chapter being almost broken, as their home world is attacked by renegade and Chaos SMs, Dark Eldar, and assorted mercenaries.

Vaerros wrote:it's not uncommon(in the fiction, that is) for SMs to represent a main part of the Imperial military presence.

I think people have the *impression* that this is common, and that it's common for them to suffer significant losses. But I don't think that's actually the case. The instances where Marines suffer significant losses tend to be isolated major engagements, like the Tyrannic wars on Macragge or the Rynn's World debacle.

It seems like the common opinion of "the scale of battles marines see themselves in... The works of fiction have them suffering 'manageable' losses, where realistically I would expect force-destroying levels of losses." is largely unfounded. I don't think they often fight in those sorts of battles, and I think a lot of 'casualties' will be injured Marines quickly returned to service.

Novel wise the marines do take some sound beatings.

Fall of Damnos - Ultramarines 2nd Company takes around 50% loses.

First Ultramiarine Ulmnibus - The comapny is at around 70 dead marines after fighting the Tyranids - not counting what the mortificators lost.

Long Game at Characius(sp) - A short story in which the Alpha Legion wipes out a chapter to the last man. I do not remember the chapters name but they were an ultramarine line.

Tyranid codex: Several chapters are lost completely as their homeworlds are overrun.

Marine Codex - One chapter suicides against the Necron World Engine. I was very disappointed the Necron sided of this was not in the newest codex.

Brothers of the Snake - Iron Snakes chapter takes two and a half companies against orcs. They flee after losing seventy or so marines in about a week.

Edit before passing out. Legion of Dead - Dead marines everywhere.

Kaldor wrote:

Vaerros wrote:it's not uncommon(in the fiction, that is) for SMs to represent a main part of the Imperial military presence.

I think people have the *impression* that this is common, and that it's common for them to suffer significant losses. But I don't think that's actually the case. The instances where Marines suffer significant losses tend to be isolated major engagements, like the Tyrannic wars on Macragge or the Rynn's World debacle.

It seems like the common opinion of "the scale of battles marines see themselves in... The works of fiction have them suffering 'manageable' losses, where realistically I would expect force-destroying levels of losses." is largely unfounded. I don't think they often fight in those sorts of battles, and I think a lot of 'casualties' will be injured Marines quickly returned to service.

Space Marines are a valuable asset in the Imperium, and not only are they rare, they are much needed. It is extremely rare that a chapter does not see combat in one month, let alone a few. But on top of this, they are a force used to deploy behind enemy lines, to turn defeat into victory, and to spearhead attacks that can shatter enemies and render them disorganized and unable to respond. They play the roles of what we today would consider special operations. As such, and to see them do it on a regular basis, one can only expect casualties to be high, maybe not in the short term, but in the long run, if your organization is only at an average of 1000 strong, every trained and tried warrior lost is a heavy blow, especially considering for every one lost, you replace the good numbers with less experienced numbers who also now have less seasoned warriors to teach and guide them.

Kaldor wrote:

Sorry to pick on you, but this is an example of what I've been talking about in this thread.

What battles do the Marines see themselves in? What casualties did they suffer, and how frequent are battles on that scale or scope?

Stuff like the battle of Macragge, or Rynn's World, or Doombreed's Black Crusade (wiped out two chapters), or any time when an entire chapter was wiped out. Despite their purpose, marines to get involved in direct, large scale conflicts from time to time, which they do not have the numbers to possibly deal with.

LumenPraebeo wrote:They play the roles of what we today would consider special operations. As such, and to see them do it on a regular basis, one can only expect casualties to be high

But how high? How high is too high? And why?

We can't just go "well, they do a tough job so they must die often" because that's not good enough. For the most part, I imagine their losses are negligible. They are, after all, almost entirely immune to small arms fire and a good deal of heavy weapons fire. And if their armour is breached... Well I don't really need to go into the specifics do I? A Marine can lose all of his limbs, his eyes, get shot in the heart and still be in a combat ready state in a matter of weeks. Most of their jobs will (I imagine) see them facing off against completely unprepared enemies, with lighting quick deployment and extraction, and correspondingly low casualty rates.

The nightmare battles like Macragge or Rynn's World are the exception, and are usually noted to have catastrophic consequences for the chapter.

I imagine in bad situations they do take a lot of casualties which may cause them to fall back, or their lines to buckle. Assuming they are not then wiped out but manage to either hold or do a fighting retreat, they take the fallen with them. The greater part of the fallen are not actually dead and will live to fight another day but are of no further use in that particular battle.
So they could take heavy casualties and even be defeated in battle, but long term the chapter isn't hurt as the marines haven't died, their various organs, conditioning and equipment allowing them to survive.

cadbren wrote:I imagine in bad situations they do take a lot of casualties which may cause them to fall back, or their lines to buckle. Assuming they are not then wiped out but manage to either hold or do a fighting retreat, they take the fallen with them. The greater part of the fallen are not actually dead and will live to fight another day but are of no further use in that particular battle.
So they could take heavy casualties and even be defeated in battle, but long term the chapter isn't hurt as the marines haven't died, their various organs, conditioning and equipment allowing them to survive.

I agree with this.

I think it's also important to note that some Marines will fall back rather than die. Not from fear, but knowing that their position cannot be held. When I read about lines buckling, in any context, I imagine it's mostly an effect of morale or a deliberate withdrawal.

Kaldor wrote:They are, after all, almost entirely immune to small arms fire and a good deal of heavy weapons fire.

I'm ... not entirely sure I would agree to this. Whilst the Marines are incredibly tough, I doubt their enemies would use something like stub guns - which is basically the only thing I could personally imagine an Astartes to simply ignore ("meh, a bullet lodged somewhere in my chest, who cares"). Las weapons for example, possibly one of the more numerous small arms the Astartes come across these days, are said to "vapourise the impact surface in a small explosion" (src: 3E BRB), and even the enhanced physiology of a Marine will have a hard time resisting entire chunks of flesh being blown out of the chest or the skull ... provided the shot managed to surpass the 85% injury reduction chance powered armour (the upper limit against most small arms, according to the Codex: Angels of Death), of course. But yes, most of the time, a single hit could simply injure and "neutralize" the Marine, thus allowing for potential later extraction - if the Chapter manages to secure the area in time. To some, this might make the battles in the tabletop seem somewhat less silly than simply assuming they'd drop dead on the spot.

Of course it is largely a matter of interpretation, given that we only have deductive evidence to go by, but various incidents detailed throughout the available material specifically referring to Marines dying seem to support this stance. That is, if one were to go by the studio material over another interpretation of the 'verse.

I am generally of the same opinion as yours, however, concerning what most of the Astartes "jobs" would look like. To say it simply: "shock troops gonna shock."

I like this discussion, its kinda turned into a 'how do space marines recover their losses' thread, but its still on topic.

I've thought about this a lot. Chapters like Space Wolves, Black Templars and Ultramarines are three examples of the diversity...
Space Wolves are a huge chapter (more like a legion) with probably more than 1000 marines, but with a small and fluxuating population from which to draw aspirants.
Black Templars are constantly crusading, incurring huge losses, but putting bastions everywhere to draw new recruits from.
And Ultramarines have a huge population that's stable and putting forward recruits regularly, but still stays within codex size.

It's all different but seems to work out in the end, and even when disaster strikes these chapters have the resources of entire planets and systems to call their own, so they can rebuild at an incredible rate.

yes , image a planet larger than Eath, where you ask only 100 people to replace 10
also i think apothecaries,chaplains ect arent in 1000 limit, but im not sure

First, I don't think there are only 1000 Chapters of 1000 Space Marines. Many chapters that were thought lost are still out there and it has been proven there are foundings where there is little or no information about the Chapters created and Chapters which have more (or less) than 1000 marines.

To understand why Humanity doesn't pump out Marines by the Butt-load (sorry, bad visual) in order to conquer the galaxy once again is to understand that the reason goes beyond the simple limitations of the geneseed of the Space Marines.

The Imperium still exists, not just by the tireless efforts of the Imperial Guard or the Legions Astartes, but by its sheer size. The Imperium is a vast, weighty, stale dogmatic bureaucracy, where planets are lost for millenia, populations of billions of no more value than tax value or a military tithe and, in some areas barely hanging on to technology.

Why does the Imperium continue to exist this way? Why no reforms? It's because the immense balkanism and the massive bureacracy are promoted by the Byzantine politicking of the Lords of Terra which results in the hoarding and manipulation of the Astartes geneseed for unknown reasons. The LoT 'playing favorites' amongst the Astartes Chapters (see Minotaurs) to further their own goals, the infighting and politicking of the merchant houses and the Mechanicus hoarding technological secrets on Mars. No one in the Imperium trusts anyone else and this fear runs very deep amongst nearly all the players.

Not to mention the predations of Chaos and the loss of the Emperor and the the last of the Primarchs nearly 8 thousand years earlier.

Macharius tried to reconquer a portion of the galaxy, but as soon as he 'stopped', much like Alexanders empire in our own history, it broke apart and fought at cross-purposes for a long, long, long time. Reversing nearly all of the gains mankind earned in years of fighting at great loss and sending the Imperium further down the road to dissolution.

As it stands now, the Imperium rides in limbo much like the ancient Roman Empire just before the dam broke with the final push by the barbarian hordes. The very late Western Roman Empire was an impotent reflection of its former self, all that remained was a massive bureaucracy held together by a fragile infrastructure. Once those clay feet were shattered the empires fate was sealed. No ordinary Roman thought the end was near. Nor could imagine a world without the power of Rome. Yet it happened.

I think the Imperium is nearing this stage in its life cycle, but with far greater consequences for mankind.

Well, until the powers that be rewrite some history... again.