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So I borrowed an old copy of my friends 2nc Edition Imperial Guard Codex, and the fluff was radically different. The big thing was that instead of a largely infantry force lead by incompetent commanders the Imperial Guard was a highly mechanized force that relied on its blitzkreig tactics, which is still shown in the chimeras and any chimera hull based artillery, it had to keep up with the advance.

The next big thing was that instead of being fodder until the Space Marines show up to save the day, the Guard was called in to handle things space marines couldn't. Like large battles. The post from the codex "Often a conflict will be simply too large, the enemy too powerful, too numerous, or too well entrenched for local forces, ships, or Space Marines to defeat. In such a case mobility counts for very little. In conflicts such as this, the really huge invasions, the wars that spread across whole star systems and decades of warp space, only the grinding steamroller of the Imperial Guard can hope to crush the foe. The ultimate fighting machine, its task is to hold a front line that stretches across the stars, to wage war for decades or centuries if need be, to act as the bastion of the Imperium against the massed hordes arrayed against Mankind." See that, when an Enemy is too Powerful for the space marines, they sent in the Guard. Blows my mind.

So what do you guys think? Which version of the Fluff do you like best?

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:So I borrowed an old copy of my friends 2nc Edition Imperial Guard Codex, and the fluff was radically different. The big thing was that instead of a largely infantry force lead by incompetent commanders the Imperial Guard was a highly mechanized force that relied on its blitzkreig tactics, which is still shown in the chimeras and any chimera hull based artillery, it had to keep up with the advance.

The next big thing was that instead of being fodder until the Space Marines show up to save the day, the Guard was called in to handle things space marines couldn't. Like large battles. The post from the codex "Often a conflict will be simply too large, the enemy too powerful, too numerous, or too well entrenched for local forces, ships, or Space Marines to defeat. In such a case mobility counts for very little. In conflicts such as this, the really huge invasions, the wars that spread across whole star systems and decades of warp space, only the grinding steamroller of the Imperial Guard can hope to crush the foe. The ultimate fighting machine, its task is to hold a front line that stretches across the stars, to wage war for decades or centuries if need be, to act as the bastion of the Imperium against the massed hordes arrayed against Mankind." See that, when an Enemy is too Powerful for the space marines, they sent in the Guard. Blows my mind.

So what do you guys think? Which version of the Fluff do you like best?

I think that paragraph really illuminates the purpose of both the IG and the Astartes.

One is a small-scale rapid response force of bad asses. The other is a massive 'grinding steamroller'. I don't think this has really changed in the newer fluff, instead I think the impression that it has changed is given by the fact that so many novels feature Marines, and naturally the IG is shown in a negative light by comparison. The Astartes still need the IG to fight those large scale engagements.

^ What Kaldor said, basically. At least I choose to believe this, for the newer fluff and its decrease in detail does allow for more diverse interpretations - so the old material still has its place, if one would just choose to use it. To me, it just makes the most sense, and it makes for what I at times describe as a sort of "narrative balance" between the two forces instead of focusing on one over the other.

Personal preferences, of course.

From your description of 2E fluff, it doesn't sound like anything has changed.

Current Imperial Guard is mostly infantry based in the fluff. It also used as a poor cop out to show enemies slaughter tons of Guardsmen then to be rescued by Marines. In 2nd, Marines where one of the first responders, and if the enemy was too powerful the IG was called in,

I will say that it makes no sense to have Astartes as "first responders." There just aren't enough of them. So I'm glad that idea is gone from the current fluff. The Space Marines are for applying overwhelming force to a discrete target. They would have a lot of trouble "saving" an army, unless the army could be saved by doing something like killing a Chaos Lord. But against a full-scale nid invasion? I think there is even a story, published most recently in Let the Galaxy Burn, showing how the Space Marines showing up in the face of nids is basically useless. And of course the UM just barely made it through Behemoth, even supported by Macragge's own auxilla.

Manchu wrote:I will say that it makes no sense to have Astartes as "first responders." There just aren't enough of them. So I'm glad that idea is gone from the current fluff. The Space Marines are for applying overwhelming force to a discrete target. They would have a lot of trouble "saving" an army, unless the army could be saved by doing something like killing a Chaos Lord. But against a full-scale nid invasion? I think there is even a story, published most recently in Let the Galaxy Burn, showing how the Space Marines showing up in the face of nids is basically useless. And of course the UM just barely made it through Behemoth, even supported by Macragge's own auxilla.

I know this, however a lot of Space Marine fans (and some authors) seem to have the misconception that marines would be good at large battles. They simply lack the numbers to stand up in mass warfare.

I'm having trouble thinking of an example in Black Library where the SM take on mass battle type situation by themselves. Can you think of some examples?

I'd have to look. Are we talking Space Marines just alone or with support?

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

Manchu wrote:I will say that it makes no sense to have Astartes as "first responders." There just aren't enough of them. So I'm glad that idea is gone from the current fluff. The Space Marines are for applying overwhelming force to a discrete target. They would have a lot of trouble "saving" an army, unless the army could be saved by doing something like killing a Chaos Lord. But against a full-scale nid invasion? I think there is even a story, published most recently in Let the Galaxy Burn, showing how the Space Marines showing up in the face of nids is basically useless. And of course the UM just barely made it through Behemoth, even supported by Macragge's own auxilla.

I know this, however a lot of Space Marine fans (and some authors) seem to have the misconception that marines would be good at large battles. They simply lack the numbers to stand up in mass warfare.

The same is true of the majority of factions in 40k.

There's a misconception that the Astartes would be completely stomped, with no recourse, for "large battles"(what are we defining this as?).

If we're talking straight up, infantry slugfests--then yes, there generally would be a disadvantage to the Astartes once they assault and their initial surprise wears off.
Just like the Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau Fire Caste, and Traitor Legions would be at a disadvantage after the initial surprise of their attack wears off as well.

In defensive operations, it's plausible that the Astartes could operate well in a large battle...but it would require specific circumstances such as what we saw in "The Purging of Kadillus" where they're operating as a kind of "heavy hitter" for a Guard force which is doing most of the grunt work.
In offensive operations, it's also plausible that the Astartes could operate well in a large battle...but it would, again, require specific circumstances. The Astartes can operate just fine in large battles, but their tactics are not going to be of the "throw more men at it!" variety--which is an option that even the most reserved Guard officer has at their disposal.

@ObliviousBlueCaboose: If they have support then it can't be an example of what you're talking about. So it needs to be them alone, doing a job suited to the Guard, and succeeding at it.


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Kanluwen wrote:The Astartes can operate just fine in large battles

That is not in doubt. What is in doubt is that the Astartes can do what the Guard do better than the Guard.

Manchu wrote:@ObliviousBlueCaboose: If they have support then it can't be an example of what you're talking about. So it needs to be them alone, doing a job suited to the Guard, and succeeding at it.

Kanluwen wrote:The Astartes can operate just fine in large battles

That is not in doubt. What is in doubt is that the Astartes can do what the Guard do better than the Guard.

Well of course.

I think the only examples of "Astartes doing what the Guard do better than the Guard" involve the Astartes taking on lightly armored, lightly armed foes.

I know there's a short story in "Tales of Heresy" where a group of Space Wolves stop a Dark Eldar raid on a human world with like...ten guys.
If I remember right, someone has mentioned something similar happened in the Iron Snake novel (which I've not read; as it holds no interest for me).

Manchu wrote:I will say that it makes no sense to have Astartes as "first responders." There just aren't enough of them.

They are way more mobile than the Imperial Guard, though. A Marine strike cruiser can get underway immediately, whereas an IG force takes weeks or months to mobilize. Of course the Imperium is a big place, but given that warp travel times are not a very detailed concept, I don't think there is anything in the fluff directly contradicting the idea of Space Marines as first responders.

Manchu wrote:I will say that it makes no sense to have Astartes as "first responders." There just aren't enough of them.

I actually think the exact opposite is true!

A self contained and supplied unit like a Marine chapter is the perfect first response force. They can handle any situation, any environment, and don't need to wait for reinforcements or sector HQ approval. By contrast, the IG takes a very, very long time to get moving.

A Marine force may consist of only a single squad and strike cruiser, but that's more than enough to put down a rebellious government.

@Lynata: As you admit, mobility doesn't make up for tiny numbers pitted against vast distances and constant emergencies.

@Kaldor: SM cannot handle any situation. The best use for them is to be called in by the IG to crack particularly tough nuts.

Manchu wrote:@Lynata: As you admit, mobility doesn't make up for tiny numbers pitted against vast distances and constant emergencies.

Well, that would depend on how many emergencies pop up all the time that extend beyond the capabilities of the planet's own PDF.

I know that 40k is all about war, but I'm not too sure about it being so omnipresent as it is often made to sound like. And a single company of Space Marines could make all the difference if it works in conjunction with local forces, adding up to a hundred extremely well-armed and resilient shock troops to the defenders.

Matter of interpretation, I guess, but I don't see anything that would change my mind on this subject just yet.

Lynata wrote:but I don't see anything that would change my mind on this subject just yet.

I don't even know what your position is, to be honest.

Manchu wrote:I don't even know what your position is, to be honest.

Ah, basically just that I am still going by the segment that ObliviousBlueCaboose had posted - including the "first responders" thing. Most of the time I think it would be a Navy ship rather than a Marine cruiser, though. Either way, the Guard would be last to arrive.

The fullquote from the Codex was as follows:
"The first forces able to respond to a distress signal are usually spacecraft of the nearest fleet. Imperial warships can drive away attacking craft or support friendly ground forces. However, ships can do little to aid desparete ground troops. If the distress signal reaches a nearby Space Marine Chapter fortress, a force of Space Marines can be sent as quickly as naval vessels. All Space Marine Chapters have their own fleets consisting of some of the fastest ships in the Imperium. Often, a small force of Space Marines is enough to turn back an alien invasion - so long as there are some other human forces left to support them. However, the Space Marine Chapters are not large: an entire Chapter may be able to field only a thousand warriors or thereabouts."
... and then follows the part posted by the OP.

I guess we're kind of presuming that all actions are reactions, like everything is always some totally unforeseen emergency.

The basic "set up" I envision is the IG fighting ceaselessly in thousands of theaters of conflict. If a new problem crops up on World 237401037, it's not like some regiment from across the Segmentum has to pick up and move. There would already be fighting near enough. In other words, there's a better chance that IG regiment is near than a SM chapter. But if the two formations are equally close then I absolutely agree that the SM would get there first.

In Dead Men Walking, the DKoK decides to go on leave on a hive planet. When they get there, none of the troopers actually take shore leave. Very soon, one of the hives is overrun by Necrons. And then the DKoK deploy. The creepy thing being that the DKoK must indeed have come to fight Necrons despite ostensibly being "on leave" after their last assignment.

Personally, I actually prefer the current "cannon fodder" depiction of the Guard, beyond exceptions for "elite" regiments who are nonetheless in over their head like Cadians/Catachans/Stormtroopers/etc.. Making the Guard out to be an elite professional force makes one wonder why space marines and sisters are in fluff.

I agree with that sentiment. If regular humans are going to be cool then they have to be regular. A regular human fighting a daemon is not going to do well, all other things being equal. Guardsmen should not be lionized into Astartes and Astartes should not be diminished into Guardsmen. By that same token, Astartes will never be as heroic as Guardsmen.

Manchu wrote:I guess we're kind of presuming that all actions are reactions, like everything is always some totally unforeseen emergency. The basic "set up" I envision is the IG fighting ceaselessly in thousands of theaters of conflict. If a new problem crops up on World 237401037, it's not like some regiment from across the Segmentum has to pick up and move. There would already be fighting near enough.

Ah, I guess that's where our interpretations differ. I do not see Imperial Guard regiments standing "idle" - which would be required for them to pick up and move, otherwise they'd retreat from a battle not yet won. Idle regiments are instantly thrown into other warzones (including ones the Imperium opens up itself), but to have the end of a campaign coincide with a new threat popping up just sounds too much like a convenient coincidence to me.

From the 5E Codex:
"A plea for military aid may come to the ears of the Imperium, but not be acted upon for months, years or even decades. Such requests typically make their way through countless adepts before finally reaching the hands of one who can sanction a suitable action, sitting at a dimly lit pulpit-station many hundreds of light years away. One such example occurred when a battle group consisting of over a dozen regiments from Mordant and Tremert were raised to eliminate unknown xenos forces on the planet of Hurspraxia, only to arrive over a century too late, finding a lifeless world with no trace of survivors."

Note also how - in addition of hinting at the "efficiency" of Imperial bureaucracy - it says that the regiments had to be raised first, they did not exist already. This is in line with the 2E Codex and its explanation that Imperial Guard regiments are raised on an as-needed basis, regular tithes shipped off to an ongoing warzone or in preparation of a new crusade, and irregular tithes to answer nearby pleas for aid. With exception to some unique regiments such as the Storm Troopers or the Cadians, they don't do garrison duty (which would be required to have them available on standby), for that's the job of the PDF. Unless, of course, a veteran regiment finally settles down on a newly conquered world and becomes a new colony.

Harriticus wrote:Personally, I actually prefer the current "cannon fodder" depiction of the Guard, beyond exceptions for "elite" regiments who are nonetheless in over their head like Cadians/Catachans/Stormtroopers/etc.. Making the Guard out to be an elite professional force makes one wonder why space marines and sisters are in fluff.

Whilst I definitively agree about favouring a more grimdark and less "elite" depiction of the Guard, this does not conflict with the 2E fluff in the slightest. You can be cannonfodder and still be essential. Just look at how the Soviets won WW2. That's basically the style I'm aiming at ... being an underdog - but one that is still more important than the Marines.

PS: Vostroyans ftw!

Lynata wrote:I do not see Imperial Guard regiments standing "idle"

Me, either. I think the real difference is I think there is a lot more war in the grim darkness of the future where there is only war than you seem to.

ADB's Helsreach shows both the blessing of having an Astartes force, and the general weakness of having an astartes force. The best way to describe astartes is that they are force multipliers, much like snipers, sure modern snipers can raise hell on an enemy force, but if significant numbers or armor rolls through, they are very well screwed.

Can Space Marines save the day, yes and it is shown all the time. Can Imperial Guard save space marines. Most certainly and I would love to read a novel about that. SM are very much like modern day special forces, can the U.S. live without them, most assuredly, would some missions be impossible without a pyrrhic victory, most deffinately.
All this from an SM player

Manchu wrote:@Lynata: As you admit, mobility doesn't make up for tiny numbers pitted against vast distances and constant emergencies.

Well I have to disagree there as well! If the Marines can show up before the IG are mobilised, they can harass the enemy, prevent mass troop landings, secure vital assets and extract important persons, disrupt supply lines and force the enemy to commit more resources to convoy protection, and their usual role of eliminating the enemy high command when and if the situation presents itself.

The IG are useless without the Marines acting as first responders. They would never make it to any warzone in time to do anything.

@Kaldor: SM cannot handle any situation. The best use for them is to be called in by the IG to crack particularly tough nuts.

What I meant was that the SM can handle: High gravity, low gravity, extreme temperatures, toxic atmosphere, no atmosphere, and so on.

Kaldor wrote:What I meant was that the SM can handle: High gravity, low gravity, extreme temperatures, toxic atmosphere, no atmosphere, and so on.

Theres equipment for that, that, that, and that. and that too.

Engine of War wrote:Theres equipment for that, that, that, and that. and that too.

Sure. Somewhere.

Munitorium Clerk: "I'm sorry, Lord Commander, we're fresh out of Steel Legion this week - but I could offer you two regiments of Vostroyans! ... oh, toxic atmosphere, you say? Well, I'm sure the chaps can hold out a day or two if they don't take too many deep breaths. With any luck I could get you a shipment of respirators next week - somebody ordered them for the 27th Volscani about fifty years ago, but I'm sure they won't need it anymore, would they? Ha ha!"

Lynata wrote:

Engine of War wrote:Theres equipment for that, that, that, and that. and that too.

Sure. Somewhere.

Munitorium Clerk: "I'm sorry, Lord Commander, we're fresh out of Steel Legion this week - but I could offer you two regiments of Vostroyans! ... oh, toxic atmosphere, you say? Well, I'm sure the chaps can hold out a day or two if they don't take too many deep breaths. With any luck I could get you a shipment of respirators next week - somebody ordered them for the 27th Volscani about fifty years ago, but I'm sure they won't need it anymore, would they? Ha ha!"

Pretty much my thoughts exactly.

I think the relationship between the Guard and the Marines is shown excellently in the Siege of Vraks, Part One from Forge World. When the war begins, the enemy is fortified beyond the capability of any assault to break. A massive number of Guardsmen are shipped in to wear down the enemy and exhaust their limited supplies in a siege, expected to last around ten years. There is no mention of Space Marines being called in.

When Marines finally show up, it is at their own discretion. Some of you seem to be forgetting that Marine chapters answer to no one. They offer to spearhead the breaching of the defenders' outer walls. Thanks to the incredible power that the Marines can bring to bear on the enemy's weak point, the lines are breached and the siege advances to the next stage. Once the Marines have what they came for (Dark Angels hunting for signs of the Fallen), they leave.

Guard are the Emperor's Hammer. They crush the enemies of Mankind with unrelenting force. Marines are more like a needle-sharp epee--they dart in, striking at the minuscule weak point with total precision, and deal the wound that will eventually bring down the beast.

Bludbaff wrote:Some of you seem to be forgetting that Marine chapters answer to no one.

Usually. Except the Inquisition.
Just a few hours ago I stumbled over the Armageddon 3 article about the Celestial Lions. Man, someone was a huge dick to them. A whole Chapter wiped out over a simple disagreement, and it wasn't even an official purge but a ton of backstabbing.
They pretty much told them "go here" and watched as they died.

But I agree about the Hammer/Scalpel comparison. Sums it up pretty nicely, really. I think some studio source even called it like that, too.