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I think that the two largest conflicts involving SM were the HH and the badab war.

Surely the Third War of Armageddon and the 13th Black Crusade would easily involve more Marine Chapters than the comparatively small Badab War?

Yeah they were both much bigger. Badab War was a major conflict but probably only a little over average Crusade level in size.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Current Imperial Guard is mostly infantry based in the fluff. It also used as a poor cop out to show enemies slaughter tons of Guardsmen then to be rescued by Marines. In 2nd, Marines where one of the first responders, and if the enemy was too powerful the IG was called in,

That happened in 2E, too. During the massive, star-spanning battles that paragraph of fluff you quoted is talking about, tens of millions, perhaps even billions, of Guardsmen would die. The fluff really hasn't changed.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

The next big thing was that instead of being fodder until the Space Marines show up to save the day, the Guard was called in to handle things space marines couldn't.

I think the thing to remember here is that different Imperial Forces all deal with different theaters of war and different threats. The Imperial Navy is also called in to handle things that the Imperial Guard couldn't handle. The Grey Knights, and the Deathwatch, are called in to handle certain tasks as well. Imperial Assassins are called in for specific tasks. That doesn't make them "more powerful" or "less powerful" than Space Marines.

You don't call in an Imperial Battlefleet to bombard a world into ashes if you want to preserve the resources or structures upon it. You don't call in the Space Marines if you want to make an example of a particular recalcitrant Planetary Governor. You don't call in the Deathwatch to root out a cult of the ruinous powers. You don't ask the Grey Knights to retrieve samples from a hibernating Void Whale.

None of that is a slur on the capabilities of any of those organizations. They have different strengths, weaknesses, and capacities. The 'scale' of the 40K game means that, most of the time, you're going to see the types of military operations that favor the Space Marines (and Grey Knights), and, to a lesser extent, the Imperial Guard. You don't have the massive battles that Titans would dominate, nor the planetary conflicts which would require the Navy. You don't see the long-term, highly covert operations that would involve Assassins. You don't even have the huge scale or long range land battles that really feature the artillery companies and huge infantry regiments of the Imperial Guard. Those battles all occur in the 40K universe, but they aren't represented by the scale of the tabletop game.

I don't think the fluff has really changed all that much. Space Marines don't fight conflicts of the scale or duration that is expected of the Imperial Guard. They don't have the numbers, the equipment, or the recruiting rates necessary. That doesn't make them 'less powerful', unless you arbitrarily rank everybody on a power scale where the organization can use their power to the fullest extent. If you do that, everybody pales in comparison to the Imperial Navy. Locate all battles in open space, and nobody but the Navy will be winning them.

The difference between the space marines and the IG is actually directly comparable to modern military forces in the United States. Though this of course might be personal bias.

The United States Marine Corps operates globally deployed amphibious strike units 24/7, 365. Any time, any place the Marines can have boots on the ground in 24-48 hours or less depending on where they need to be. That can be anything from an amphibious invasion and forging a beach head for further military operations, special operations such as T.R.A.P (Tactical Recovery of Aircraft and Personnel) or providing disaster relief. (Haiti for example) The Corps works as small, self contained, elite combat units and in wartime you can throw us at any given battle you like and we'll win it, but we lack the numbers and "staying power" to truly win a war (as we're staffed and organized in the present day). Winning the war requires the mass formations of tanks, infantry and artillery the Army provides.

Similarly the space marines are mobile, self contained combat forces that take on the hard problems. They win the decisive battles for the Imperium, sometimes the fate of a world can indeed rest on a single fight, and then the space marines are there, alone sometimes, or with support as the situation dictates. Even in those situations though the space marines aren't going to be enough.

Situation: A hive city on Planet X is under assault by a significant force of 'Nids, the <insert your favorite here> chapter of Space Marines deploy their 4th company via drop pod and shatter the tyranid advance, scattering their army after killing off a majority of the swarm's synapse creatures, including the hive tyrant. Battle over, a decisive victory for the Emperor's Angels, parades and beer all around! But you're still going to need a couple regiments of Imperial Guard to come kick some ass, because the battle's been won, but the war isn't over till every single 'nid is dead. Or they'll just come back. The <whatever> chapter's 4th company is way too valuable a war asset to waste their time hunting bugs for a couple months. So it's down to Guardsman Schmuckatelli and his buddies to make sure the war is well and truly over.

The scalpel and hammer allusions are perfect descriptions.

A far more accurate example would be the United Kingdoms Special Air Service. It operates with 4 Sabre Squadrons on rotation of duties; Counter-Terrorist, Training, Operational Duty (or in peace time 'Team Tasks' - training foreign militaries) and lastly 'Strip Duty'. The Squadron on 'Strip Duty' has it's Troops on 2 hour deployment standby, with one Troop on 30 minutes standby at their Squadrons quarters in the SAS 'base' at Hereford. That's 30 minutes to get that Troop, and 2 hours for the rest oft the Squadron, ready to move to where ever they are needed to do the job they're trained & employed to do; operations behind enemy lines, disrupting enemy logistics, infiltrating & destroying targets of opportunity, eliminating enemy warlords/generals, reconnaissance/intelligence gathering, Search & Rescue of downed air crew/friendly personnel.

This is essentially how the Astartes do their job - quickly respond to what the enemy are doing & perform raids, disrupt enemy logistics/command structure, perform reconnaissance work. Appearing from nowhere they perform these roles covertly (Scouts) or go in loud & level the objective and can then disappear without a trace.

Whilst the British Army's infantry & the Royal Navy's Royal Marine Commando's will perform the stand-up fights & battles, the SAS avoid such situations as it is not what they do best but with their expertise, skills & the massive array of equipment they choose to use, they could potentially strike at the enemy from their rear in the midst of battle to eliminate the enemy command & disrupt their reinforcements - something Marines can and would do.

To take your example, you're going to need way more than 100 Marines of a Codex Astartes Chapter to stop a Tyranid advance. Way, way, way more. That is where you need the regiments of the Imperial Guard holding the line preferably armed with as many flamers & heavy bolters as can be found. What you need the Astartes to do is find the Tyranid creatures exerting the influence of the Hive Mind.and destroy them - strike suddenly, remove the big nasty gribbly 'in charge' and get out of there. Leave the Guardsmen to the stand-up fight because 100 Astartes will be overwhelmed by numbers alone.

+1 To what Havelock and Da Butcha said.

Whilst researching an unrelated topic last night, I stumbled over the Relictors article in WD 281, and it makes references to the Third War of Armageddon - mentioning how most Marine Chapters withdrew their forces from the planet in the recent months, where both sides were digging in and fortifying static defenses, and how "the Marines' lightning attack style of warfare was of less relevance in this new stage of the war".

Hey you Brit up their saying the SAS is supuiriour to the MC its not even the same ball park

And here we go.

and to clarify when I say MC I mean marine corps

Hahah should have seen that coming, I now apologize for making a real world example.

Cheese however to clarify is correct. The SAS and USMC are not in the same league, they in fact are both experts in entirely different forms of warfare. Elite tactical teams and Combined Arms Assault Troops have very little relation to each other except that the former can support the latter and if the former gets in a tight spot the latter can break things en masse and pull them out. Marine MEUs supporting Force Recon, MARSOC, or SEAL teams for a more likely scenario, I'm sure the SAS has it's own backup.

I think there's room in the Astartes operation pattern that both comparisons are valid Havelock. From the fluff the Astartes is either putting down a company (or most of one) with integrated air and armor support more in the range of Marine Corps MEU, or it's putting down a squad or two, or a Death Watch kill team to handle the details beyond the capabilities of normal troopers, covert movements, assaulting a break in the lines, head hunting synapse creatures with massed Guard fire support, etc. Things you NEED a demigod of battle to do.

Let's be realistic. These battles are all fake. And, as such, the Guard and/or Marines, are only ever going to be as good as the writers need them to be.

The Space Marines will be better at most things, especially individually, than the Guard.

However, there are going to be plenty of situations where a few regiments of Guard will be more useful than a chapter of Space Marines. And they're going to crop up quite often because the situations where a ton of Imperial Guardsmen are more useful than a relatively few Space Marines are going to be the most common events.

Holding a world is Guard territory. Besieging a heavily defended objective. Fighting a war of attrition. These are staples of the 40K universe. Where you just need a few thousand bodies to plug a hole (or make a hole).

Where Space Marines thrive are hostile environments, surgical strikes, assaults on hardened targets, etc.

Space Marines and Guard aren't interchangeable for the most part. Sure, there are things that Guard can do in the place of Space Marines, but they won't do those jobs nearly as well.

So trying to quantify a "who is better" is kinda silly. You can't hold the Imperium without the Guard. That's just a simple fact. But there is no argument that the Guard are nothing more than a giant stopgap in galaxy full of horrors and technologically advanced civilizations.

As far as real world analogies, those are best avoided. Space Marines aren't analogous to any one single entity, and it's not even close. They're a hybrid of conventional and special operations troops. They have the equipment and expertise to fight both conventionally (company sized and higher, with organic reconnaissance, armor and artillery support. In that way, they are quite a bit similar to the USMC. On the other hand, their individual troops are highly capable, trained in a large variety of tactics, and can operate effectively in small units as well. In that way, they're also analogous to units like the SAS or Delta Force. You can't just argue "They're like these guys!" because, well, they're also like a bunch of other guys too. That's sort of what makes the Space Marines so powerful. They're Special Operations level troops deployed at conventional military strength and support.

You wouldn't call the SAS to invade a country. You wouldn't as a USMC rifle company to make an audacious strike on a high value target like what the SEALs did in Pakistan to get OBL. You might just ask Space Marines to do either one, because they can.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:I think there's room in the Astartes operation pattern that both comparisons are valid Havelock.

Absolutely & I'm sorry if that did not come across in my reply - I was on my laptop & it purposefully winds me up by deleting things I've written, closes tabs & generally causes mayhem. Therefore I was not in the best of moods when I finally posted. Heaven knows I've seen enough THIS UNIT vs THIS UNIT threads/posting matches that I don't want to start another. I just felt that your Marine Corps explanation showed the stand-up fight side of the Astartes without the small-scale behind the lines mayhem causing stuff. Both are, indeed, valid, and again I apologise for how my post came across.

Not a problem, I was tracking what you were saying but it came across as (not negative in any way mind) emphasizing their small unit capabilities, more death watch style.

Manchu wrote:From your description of 2E fluff, it doesn't sound like anything has changed.

Indeed. Pretty much the same now.

The current version. The Guard should be portrayed as being better, but that version makes them sound too good.

Only if you don't quite understand the scale of what the Guard's "operation: steamroller" involves. This is millions upon millions of soldiers, tens to hundreds of thousands of armored vehicles, artillery weapons, more lascells than can be counted, the use of the Imperial Navy in staggering numbers to transport all this, thousands upon thousands of Tech-Priests to maintain the gear, a massive outpouring of members of the Ecclesiarchy to attend to the spiritual needs of the troops (you think only Space Marines have chaplains?) and uncounted quintillions of Thrones to pay for it all. Tithing is all well and good, but there is a cost of production in this operation that must be paid somewhere along the line.

While the Guard's victory is nearly inevitable (and at that scale, they'd better hope it is), the very front end of the steamroller is brutal indeed. These will be truly massive battles against the Xeno or the Heretic, either of which may have their own means of mounting Operation Steamroller, and what carries the Guard to victory is their ability to replenish those front-line troops as quickly as they die.

These are not wars where the Guard go in, kick ass, take names, and suffer no casualties.

Just wanted to comment in regards to SM being sent into conflicts before the IG.

If SMs are the equivalent of special forces, seals and the like, then it makes total sense to send them in prior to a large scale engagement.

Theres numerous situations where specialized units head into a warzone to destabilize the enemy before the hammer comes down on them. This however seems to be more consistent with current CSM. They tend to go in and rile up the opposition, and weaken manufacturing and defenses.

Maybe its not noble enough for the SM to be the cloak and dagger, since they seem to be mainly portrayed as the sword and shield that protects the Imperium?

AtariAssasin wrote:Maybe its not noble enough for the SM to be the cloak and dagger, since they seem to be mainly portrayed as the sword and shield that protects the Imperium?

Yeah, I guess it's a matter of portrayal. Attacking manufactoriums or transport hubs is less "heroic" than epic assaults against fortified command headquarters, so usually only the latter would get written down. I for one have no doubts that the former still occurs (and not just by Marines but also Storm Troopers and Assassins as well), it's just that most fans prefer reading about the other and the studio will cater to that.

Just look at what the Night Lords did before they switched sides. They've always been terror troops, even before the Heresy.

I'd say IG forces were actually better off in the 2nd edition codex. You could have nuclear powered chimeras, Leman Russes that had MIU links, sensors, and could move at 70 kph easily, and your average Guard trooper could be expected to have access to fairly sophisiticated (by modern standards) gear like fancy infrared scopes or visors and the like. And generally better potential for response times (at least as far as warp speed was concerned. considering your troops could come from as far as 10,000 LY away rather than a few tens or hundreds of LY anyhow.)

It was later fluff (and Forge world) where the IG got more 'flavour' to its theme by making it MORE like WW1/WW2 IMHO.

You sure that wasn't 1E Rogue Trader, before the big re-imagination of the entire setting?

Looking at the 2E IG Codex, I don't see any of what you just listed. Instead, it specifically points out the lasgun being the only item that can actually be "expected" to be carried by any Guardsman, with everything else depending heavily on the regiment's homeworld. Feral worlders wearing fur vests are given as one example of the lower scale in terms of tech level (and in fact, the 2E Codex includes the horse-mounted Attilan Rough Riders and their explosive-tipped lances).

It's from a combination of Dark Millenium, Codex: Chaos, and Wargear. Only the nuclear powered Chimeras and a few fancy things (like Griffon mortars having a targeting system) come from the IG Codex, although the IG codex had a few other things I recall being better than later editions.

About the only thing I can remember being 'better' than stuff in 2nd is 3rd edition when lasguns got stocks and hotshot packs. Hell the comms even had better range back in 2nd.

1st edition was even wackier since you could have truly robotic systems and personal shielding on any vehicle, and starshisp could precision bombard planets from the edge of the star system (instead of having to get right up onto the edge of the atmosphere, and still risk missing your target unless it was virtually stationary.)

Lynata wrote:

Bludbaff wrote:Some of you seem to be forgetting that Marine chapters answer to no one.

Usually. Except the Inquisition.
Just a few hours ago I stumbled over the Armageddon 3 article about the Celestial Lions. Man, someone was a huge dick to them. A whole Chapter wiped out over a simple disagreement, and it wasn't even an official purge but a ton of backstabbing.
They pretty much told them "go here" and watched as they died.

But I agree about the Hammer/Scalpel comparison. Sums it up pretty nicely, really. I think some studio source even called it like that, too.

Simple Disagreement = Lions fight to save a planet, inquistion then decides to blow it up.
Watch as they died = had snipers kill all their apocaries

It's the Inquisition that answers to no one... well, no one but itself.