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Hey Dakka I'm looking to start a discussion on what used to be Eldar king until more recent codices in 5th ed. Speedy eldar was the way to go, sacrificing some fire power for speed and a huge advantage in objectivemissions. However things went down hill as everyone else brought more AT for all the mech spam armies like mechdar and IG parking lots. With the changes to deployment out of wave serpents and falcons mechdar took another hit. Speed however increased with 6th and now there are more objective missions than ever. What kind of list would you field at a tourney if you had to make a speedy Eldar army in this edition ?(allies included if you desire. )I'll leave the point limit up in the air. Jetbikes got a buff, so did fire prism blasts now that the while blast is fill strength and now everything speedy can jink for a cover save. Need I mention Eldars' ability to spam str6 to glance vehicles?

Post a list or just discuss what units Eldar now have that could make part of a competitive mech (or just speedy) list.


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Sorry I meant to post this in Army Lists. Could it be moved?

I haven't played sixth yet but from what I can gather mechdar took a serious hit - mix foot and mech is now the way to go. Glancing to death, hitting moving vehicles on a 3+ and being unable to assault from stationary vehicles more or less takes everything that was good about mechdar away. I would suggest running a mechdar/wraithwall list with rangers kind of like a hammer/anvil and see how it goes.

You need something hard hitting to deflect some fire off those vulnerable vehicles now and an Eldrad Wraithwall would be perfect, throw in some AT wraithlords and they can't be ignored while they crawl up the board either.

Just my thoughts anyway, i'm sure some one else thinks otherwise.

Well, mech Eldar is still viable if you keep the army shooty. Allies could help to mitigate the weaknesses as described by Neilvicks.

First, let me preface by saying that most of the Eldar tanks got hit hard with the changes but, there is a silver lining. While Wave Serpents were reduced in effectiveness to pathetic levels, the Falcon has become the King in the Heavy slot as a general purpose choice. I compare the Falcon to Wraithlords, Fire Prisms, Support Platforms, and Dark Reapers.

This is how I break down the Heavies. NOTE: these are my standard load outs and are by no means the “best” for everyone

Name \ Cost \ Weapons \ Benefits \ Effective Range
Falcon \ 140 \ 2xSTR8, 7xSTR6 \ Jink, Fast \ 36"
Wraithlord \ 155 \ 2xSTR8, 2xSTR4T \ Close Combat \ 36"
Fire Prism \ 125 \ 1xSTR9SB* or 1xSTR5LB* \ Jink, Fast \ 60"
Support Platforms \ 150 \ 3xSTRXSB \ 12 Wounds \ 24"
Dark Reapers \ 217 \ 8xSTR5, 2xSTR4SB \ Low AP, Ignore Cover \ 36"
War Walkers \ 180 \ 24xSTR6 \ High Volume of Fire \ 36"

Now the changes in this Ed gave Hull Points to the Falcon which by coincidence is the same value as the number of wounds that a Wraithlord has. But, they also made glancing hits ineffective for suppression, the bane of Eldar tanks in the past.

So to kill a Falcon you have to glance/pen the same number of times as a Wraithlord but, the falcon gets a jink save at all times (effectively, as all you have to do is shift to get the save) and therefore should survive one extra glance/pen per game making it more durable.

The Fire Prism has the same advantages as the Falcon but is more focused on AT and not general purpose.

I’m not sold on the Platforms yet as they are effectively static defences.

Dark Reapers are anti-infantry, as are War Walkers, though Reapers are more quality, whereas War Walkers are Quantity.

All this is why I think the Falcon will be used often in Eldar lists.

SaganGree wrote:
Falcon \ 140 \ 2xSTR8, 7xSTR6 \ Jink, Fast \ 36"

You're almost never going to get those 7 Str 6 shots. You'd have to move 6" or fewer, and you have to be within 24". That's a good recipe for being drowned in krak grenades next turn.

The Falcon lost an edge in the 5th edition and it became even worse in th 6th since the holofield is next to useless. Moreover, its a mediocre gunship as pointed out by DarknessE.
I'll definitely stay away from Falcons. This may change when the new 'dex will come out.

While the falcon and wave serpent may not be great as they used to be (but still with their uses i argue), the vyper i feel has come into its own. It is very weak and likely to die to a slight breeze but provided you make it cheap but with fire power (2x shuriken) you can make it useful. Two units of vypers going around the flanks out of the way can be a real boost to your army. Just make sure you don't leave them in the open to long or they will die.

Well, we can hope that in the new codex, the Eldar tanks and transports will get a bit cheaper point-wise since they are eventually less resilient these days.
Vypers are still mediocre skimmers. They can be useful in higher pt games to fill gaps in the shooty front line.

DarknessEternal wrote:

SaganGree wrote:
Falcon \ 140 \ 2xSTR8, 7xSTR6 \ Jink, Fast \ 36"

You're almost never going to get those 7 Str 6 shots. You'd have to move 6" or fewer, and you have to be within 24". That's a good recipe for being drowned in krak grenades next turn.

Actually, I get all 7 shots all the time... with the ability to pre measure I line up shots within 24" all the time. And even if I can't get within 24" with 6" of movement I can get there with 12" and then have 3 STR6 snap shots.

Don't get me wrong... there are MUCH better options out there for OTHER armies... but for Eldar, the Falcon is the most consistent mid/long ranged AT/AI in the dex. (IMO)

Well, I played this Falcon-loadout in the 4th edition. Its not very killy.
A Serpent with tl slatterlaser and underslung shuricannon has also 7 shots and it has a better protection thanks to the energy field.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, I played this Falcon-loadout in the 4th edition. Its not very killy.
A Serpent with tl slatterlaser and underslung shuricannon has also 7 shots and it has a better protection thanks to the energy field.

Very true... but it doesn't have the 2 shot pulse laser... that's the deciding factor for me.

Well comparing the WS and Falcon

WS: 125points - 9* str 6 shots - Extra survivorbility - slightly higher transport count - doesn't take up a Heavy slot

Falcon 140points - 2 str 8 and 7 str 6 shots

So for 15 points and a Heavy slot; you replace 2 str 6 shots with 2 str 8 ap 2 shots. and lose suvivorbilty.

Personnaly I find that to be a very high price considering that my Heavy slots are always full and there's always one more thing I'd like to bring.


*(counting an average 2 extra from TL)

Why do i keep seeing people say holo fields suck in this 6th? holo fields allow your opponent to roll two dice on my vehicle damage table and pick the lowest result, how does his get worse or better, it doesn't its always amazing... Ive played two games with my eldar 3 wave serpents, 2 falcons... everything is normal and fine, the falcons are frigin tanks man, holo fields save my ass pretty much every turn... lol??? so how are they bad please explain? and i used two vypers last game they were pretty helpful on making termies and dreadknights roll there 2+ save rolls, caused some wounds that ultimately led to my victory!

Warwalkers w/ scatter lasers have the dakka you need when compared with anything else in the Eldar codex.
Warwalkers are my favorite pick in the Eldar HS section. Next come Fire Prisms thanks to the new template rule. Falcons are at the bottom line. I'd prefer ally units to fill gaps in the shooty front line.

Frecklesonfire wrote:Why do i keep seeing people say holo fields suck in this 6th? holo fields allow your opponent to roll two dice on my vehicle damage table and pick the lowest result, how does his get worse or better, it doesn't its always amazing... Ive played two games with my eldar 3 wave serpents, 2 falcons... everything is normal and fine, the falcons are frigin tanks man, holo fields save my ass pretty much every turn... lol??? so how are they bad please explain? and i used two vypers last game they were pretty helpful on making termies and dreadknights roll there 2+ save rolls, caused some wounds that ultimately led to my victory!

One word, Hull points. In 5th you'd need 9 glances on average to get a weapon destroyed or immoblzied result. Now it's 3 and your dead and holo fields have no effect at all. For penetrating hits in 5th you'd need the same 9 hits to get a wreck/explode, and around 2,5 pens for a weapon destroyed or better. Now 3 pens and your dead, even if none of the pens acctaully did anything. So Holo-fields in 5th increased your suviverbility from an average of 3 hits to an average of 9 hits (more if some of them are glances). In 6th holo-fields increase your suviverbility from 2,X to 3.

My numbers are only roughly correct, and varies with things like ap 1/ap -

Weird well i'm still using them, they have won me a game alone! so Bleh!

My only problem with Fire Prisms is that I basically have to take 2, as always. But I'd much rather take another 3 WW or even a Nightspinner(dunno why I never tried it before, but it's actually suprisingly effective) and a Falcon to fill in the gap of long range high S firepower.

Fire Prisms suddenly seem too confiding, considering they lost their indestructible status.

Araenion wrote:My only problem with Fire Prisms is that I basically have to take 2, as always. But I'd much rather take another 3 WW or even a Nightspinner(dunno why I never tried it before, but it's actually suprisingly effective) and a Falcon to fill in the gap of long range high S firepower.

Fire Prisms suddenly seem too confiding, considering they lost their indestructible status.

Well, I'd think about allies in larger point games, like IG, Tau, SM or even DE. They have decent units that complement well the mech theme.

Yeah, I thought about it, but I don't own those models, so it's going to be a hefty investment if I want to have worthwhile allies.

Thanks for all the replies. So with these nerfs what units would you use to replace the weaknesses of your 5th edition speedy list? Mechdar used to play "turn 5, I win." Is this still a viable strategy?

Sphe wrote:Thanks for all the replies. So with these nerfs what units would you use to replace the weaknesses of your 5th edition speedy list? Mechdar used to play "turn 5, I win." Is this still a viable strategy?

No longer is ''turn 5 contesting'' a viable tactics, but "turn 5 tank shocking" still is.
I think mech Eldar should seek synergy with an appropriate ally.

I don't plan on running any serpents or falcons. Maybe fire prisms. But I was wondering how would a larger jetbike squad with an embolden warlock do for the turn 5 objective grab. Could it do it as effectively as a davu spent or falcon could in 5th? A unit of 6 with the warlock would be of similar cost to a bright lance davu serpent.

The ballistic skill 3 of said "Main Battle Tank" is really what kills it for me. This makes the pulse laser really only have 1 shot, if you put on a missile launcher then it only hits every other turn, scatter laser is only 2 shots.... and so on. It just makes a very unreliable shooting platform. From trying to run them in 6th, they haven't really stacked up much of a kill count.

I would rather put my money on the scatter dice of a focus blast from a prism. And even then, thats not great.

I would also rather strap on 6 EML's to my 3 walkers to get more S8 shots.

A bright lance wave serpent seems to hit with more of a punch then a falcon. I just dont get why it is BS3 for the falcon and BS4 for the serpent who already gets twin linked.




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Sphe wrote:I don't plan on running any serpents or falcons. Maybe fire prisms. But I was wondering how would a larger jetbike squad with an embolden warlock do for the turn 5 objective grab. Could it do it as effectively as a davu spent or falcon could in 5th? A unit of 6 with the warlock would be of similar cost to a bright lance davu serpent.

That isnt a bad choice at all. Give the warlock a spear and he can threaten or finish off vehicles in the mean time.

Sphe wrote:I don't plan on running any serpents or falcons. Maybe fire prisms. But I was wondering how would a larger jetbike squad with an embolden warlock do for the turn 5 objective grab. Could it do it as effectively as a davu spent or falcon could in 5th? A unit of 6 with the warlock would be of similar cost to a bright lance davu serpent.

Well, GJB's provide a mediocre unit. Hands down! A unit of 6 plus a Warlock has a large foot print and so is not easy to hide.

Serpents are still viable, though a bit overprized these days.

Things I've been considering to help mechdar in the new era:

Aegis defense lines and guardians with scatter lasers, war walkers or weapon platforms. Far seers work fine back here too.

Leaning heavily on fire dragons and similar units as your backbone. You can have guardian squads with fusions and melta characters or dark eldar blaster boats too. Just fast units where the container has reliable torrenting ability and the contents can put a hurt on the scariest of targets. If you can make that happen a lot, and you can sneak in some healthy scoring and psychic tricks to shore up the glass dagger-ness you'll have a pretty efficient base to build a list around.

I really like the idea of having 2 units of wychs for countercharge or bubble wrap or just running to tie up something nasty. Doom and other tricks suit them and poisoned weapons very well. Can you imagine how cost effective it will be wiping out doomed squads with venoms and warriors?

Using a more resilient race to bubble wrap or score for your fast eldar elements.

Utilizing bigger jet bike squads.

Waiting for a new codex.

Playing DE and splashing in eldrad and like 2-4 tanks worth of eldar.

Oh I also really like falcons with a bright lance. That's a lot of terminator and medium armor bane, if inaccurate.

Im also going to urge my pal to test out blade storm big dire avengers units especially since overwatch seems to be unaffected by the turn of missed shooting.

I don't think I'll be dusting off my eldar myself, but I'll be super excited whenever my pals bring theirs. I'm perplexed but not all that hopeful.

Razgriz22 wrote:
A bright lance wave serpent seems to hit with more of a punch then a falcon. I just dont get why it is BS3 for the falcon and BS4 for the serpent who already gets twin linked.

The wave serpent is only bs 3, (unless this has been faq/errated somewhere). Your probarly mixing it up with the Fire prisme.

Lilrys wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:
A bright lance wave serpent seems to hit with more of a punch then a falcon. I just dont get why it is BS3 for the falcon and BS4 for the serpent who already gets twin linked.

The wave serpent is only bs 3, (unless this has been faq/errated somewhere). Your probarly mixing it up with the Fire prisme.

Sorry, I must be an idiot. I honestly have no idea what made me think that. Wow. I feel quite stupid now lol.

Falcons make fine gunships as long as you support them with guide. And they're better in pairs too. They put out plenty of dakka. And some much needed S8 for my army which has too few guns that can harm Necron vehicles from long range.

Really though, I never found Prisms to hit much harder. WLs are slow and don't mix well with the speed I want to play with. I already have Walkers and don't want to spam 9 of them. Support Batteries don't move and fire. If you want to play to the excellent speed of Mechdar, I think Guided Falcons are an awesome choice.

You're on to something, Dnanoodle. In my last game I used 1 Falcon with a Farseer in it, so that's one guided Falcon, but my Eldrad(it's a 1750-2000 games we play) stayed in the Serpent with the Dire Avengers, giving my enemy a clear target priority over other vehicles.

I'm considering dropping the Guideseer and taking Eldrad with codex powers instead of the new rulebook ones so he can Guide both Falcons and Doom/Fortune something if need be. The range is shorter, but at least I don't have to have LoS to the target.

Falcons are total garbage now because of hull points.

Holofields used to make the falcon almost immortal. It was usually shaken all the time, but it took immense firepower to actually kill it. Now it takes three glancing hits...

Leave that falcon on the shelf if you want to play competitively.