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I was just reading the Grey Knight codex and was reminded that Grey Knights mind-wipe loyalists who fight alongside them, a piece of fluff I thought had disappeared.
I was wondering though, are Loyalist Space Marines mind-wiped after fighting Daemons in general, or are they allowed to know about Daemons just not Grey Knights?
I can't seem to find an answer on the forums or in any codexes. The only reference I could find was the hunt for Valdorus, where the White Scars go to hunt a Daemon Prince, at least implying that White Scars have knowledge of Daemons existence.
It would seem a little odd to not let Space Marines retain valuable battlefield experience, especially considering around the eye of terror fighting Daemons must be fairly regular, but weirder things happen in the grim future.
Also, are Cadians allowed to know about Daemons? If not then boy do I feel sorry for Cadians at the moment...

Of course loyalist SMs know about daemons.

Marines only tend to get mind wiped if they witnessed something truly horrible that might corrupt them.

Grey Templar wrote:Of course loyalist SMs know about daemons.

Marines only tend to get mind wiped if they witnessed something truly horrible that might corrupt them.

I thought so, just wanted to check though. Writing my chapter fluff atm, want to be thorough about it.

Well, according the ADB's Emperors Gift, you're wrong (not said nastily I'd like to point out!)

They say that the GK's mind wipe Marines that witness daemonic incursions, whereas the more easily replaced guardsmen are simply killed outright. That's kinda the main part of the story

I personally think they only mind wipe Astartes if they fought with Grey Knights so that the Grey Knights remain a secret, because there are many chapters that have demons before and still recount the event.

kitch102 wrote:Well, according the ADB's Emperors Gift, you're wrong (not said nastily I'd like to point out!)

They say that the GK's mind wipe Marines that witness daemonic incursions, whereas the more easily replaced guardsmen are simply killed outright. That's kinda the main part of the story

I haven't read the book yet (I hear it's great though), but I'd assumed that the mind-wipes were because of the Grey Knights presence, not because of the Daemons. Goddamn you GW, making your lore super confusing and stuff.

Im siding with the mind wipe being due to the grey knight presence. Daemons, dont see why they shouldnt know. not like they wouldnt be prepared for every enemy, and they fight their chaos flavoured cousins often enough. Why wouldnt they know?

Unless I misunderstood the reference (and it seemed pretty clear cut to be honest) the Grey knights, and Inquisition as a whole, will not allow anyone to know of the existence of Daemons, full stop, period. Now, I acknowledge that the idea behind this is that the Grey Knights are present at every incursion, though that simply can't be possible as they don't have the numbers. It's strongly implied that mind wipes are given to any marine or other person of significant note, whilst "standard" human populations are simply "cleansed"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think I missed a bit of my explanation, though I can't remember specifically what it was, so my bad if there's a gap in the reasoning

kitch102 wrote:Unless I misunderstood the reference (and it seemed pretty clear cut to be honest) the Grey knights, and Inquisition as a whole, will not allow anyone to know of the existence of Daemons, full stop, period. Now, I acknowledge that the idea behind this is that the Grey Knights are present at every incursion, though that simply can't be possible as they don't have the numbers. It's strongly implied that mind wipes are given to any marine or other person of significant note, whilst "standard" human populations are simply "cleansed"

would imply though, potentialy, regular SM would be going into any battle against chaos forces with no idea whats going on

I'm not 100% sure I understand your meaning... sorry

Some chapters, sure, I can see them being all about landing and getting stuck in straight away, while others would be a little more liberal in their preparation.

There's countless variables to consider when going this route of discussion (whether daemons are already present and accounted for, or if they appear mid occupation / campaign being one)

kitch102 wrote:I'm not 100% sure I understand your meaning... sorry

Some chapters, sure, I can see them being all about landing and getting stuck in straight away, while others would be a little more liberal in their preparation.

There's countless variables to consider when going this route of discussion (whether daemons are already present and accounted for, or if they appear mid occupation / campaign being one)

Haha sorry about that, i ment more of a "daemons appearing route". If the inquisition guard a secret, they guard it close. Just because a marine force knows their up against chaos, if the big =][= sees fit to keep daemons a secret, stands to reason theyl keep it that way till the last possible minute. Plus chaos isnt exactly disconnected from the whole daemon thing, if i remember theres a few cults and traitor legions that are big on them.


Oh and as to none marines, it does state that any IG force that shows particular valor, honour, and distinction is spared cleansing and mind wiped too. only alot faster and more painfully than marines.

I agree on the variables btw. It will depend on the chapter as well, firstly on how close the chapters ties are with the inquisition if they DO keep the existence of daemons a secret. Plus think its safe to say chapters like the exorcists will know of them already

Edit: hit quote again instead of edit ><

First of all, we need to understand just how big, and just how fractured the Imperium really is.

It's big. Really, really, really big.

Things get done differently in different places. Where an Inquisitor in one segmentum might mindwipe an entire Astartes chapter, in another segmentum another Inquisitor might let them keep their memories, and give them medals to boot.

With that out of the way...

Generally the Inquisition will eradicate knowledge of Chaos. Anyone who is exposed to Chaos is also exposed to their temptations, and if even one of those warriors succumbs to those temptations in later weeks, months or years the results can be catastrophic. However, it is not possible for the Inquisition to be aware of, nor respond to, every Chaos incursion. As a result, there will be many forces of the Imperium that have fought Chaos and 'gotten away with it'.

Kaldor wrote:First of all, we need to understand just how big, and just how fractured the fluff really is.
It's a matter of interpretation. Many, many, many different interpretations.
Things get done differently by different authors.

Fixed that for you.

Lynata wrote:

Kaldor wrote:First of all, we need to understand just how big, and just how fractured the fluff really is.
It's a matter of interpretation. Many, many, many different interpretations.
Things get done differently by different authors.

Fixed that for you.

lol, true.

But even so, we can't even decide on universal measurements here on earth, a single planet. Let alone planets and groups of planets on opposite sides of the galaxy. One only needs to take a look at the various ways we do things here: in some countries you can be put to death for having the wrong religion, what's viewed as proper and just behaviour in one place is backwards and barbaric in another. Heck, we even have different meanings for the same word: 'Mile' and 'Gallon' spring to mind.

I'd be surprised (and disappointed) if GW and the BL tried to insist on galaxy wide standards!

The oldest references to Grey Knights - back in Realms of Chaos had that the very existance of Daemons was secret and that those that fought them were either killed (non Astartes) or mind scrubbed (Astartes)

This was changed as the universe was expanded on and more information created.

There are however many problems with the whole Kill/mind scrub everyone

How does Cadia still exisist as described,
Half the fluff (in Codexes and novels) have Astartes and others fighting Daemons - inlcuding it being part of noted planets history - Tallarn for one.
Chapters hunt specfic Daemons or have them as enemies.

I would treat as its probably Grey Knight / Ordo Malleus doctrine to do so but sometimes (often) it is just not possible or desirable or they are just not there. It may well be a leftover from the Great Crusade when originally the very existance of Daemons was cocnealed from all.

Mr Morden wrote:The oldest references to Grey Knights - back in Realms of Chaos had that the very existance of Daemons was secret and that those that fought them were either killed (non Astartes) or mind scrubbed (Astartes)

This was changed as the universe was expanded on and more information created.

There are however many problems with the whole Kill/mind scrub everyone

How does Cadia still exisist as described,
Half the fluff (in Codexes and novels) have Astartes and others fighting Daemons - inlcuding it being part of noted planets history - Tallarn for one.
Chapters hunt specfic Daemons or have them as enemies.

I would treat as its probably Grey Knight / Ordo Malleus doctrine to do so but sometimes (often) it is just not possible or desirable or they are just not there. It may well be a leftover from the Great Crusade when originally the very existance of Daemons was cocnealed from all.

See i like that theory, rather than just retconning fluff, its just fluff from before history point X. Good point on Cadia, if it is a big secret kinda makes the planet redundant.

Phantom wrote:I personally think they only mind wipe Astartes if they fought with Grey Knights so that the Grey Knights remain a secret, because there are many chapters that have demons before and still recount the event.

I basically second this; AFAIK its The Grey Knights that are a secret (except for Chapter Masters), rather than Daemons.

Again, like someone mentioned above we come to fractured fluff.

The Space Wolves fought a whole daemonic horde and Chaos Marines on Armageddon. And as the story goes, I believe Logan himself -knew- when to call in the Grey Knights.

Edit for a sentence that makes sense.

FireWolf698 wrote:Again, like someone we mention above we come to fractured fluff.

The Space Wolves fought a whole daemonic horde and Chaos Marines on Armageddon. And as the story goes, I believe Logan himself -knew- when to call in the Grey Knights.

Supposedly, only the Chapter Masters know of the Grey Knights.

Daemons? Well that's the whole point of this discussion, but I'm under the belief they're not a secret, but the Grey Knights are.

I think I'd agree with you on that subject. But then I go on to wonder...what's the point of keeping the knowledge of the Grey Knights from loyalist marines? Yes, yes..knowledge is power, guard it etc. But I'm talking logically here, not Imperium logic!

Gaunt's Ghosts fight deamons all the time and get away with it. I'd have thought Space Marines would also.

FireWolf698 wrote:I think I'd agree with you on that subject. But then I go on to wonder...what's the point of keeping the knowledge of the Grey Knights from loyalist marines? Yes, yes..knowledge is power, guard it etc. But I'm talking logically here, not Imperium logic!

Now that at least, I don't know. I guess it could help keep the Grey Knights safe and/or incorruptible and help with an element of surprise, but that's me clutching at straws really...

Just Dave wrote:

FireWolf698 wrote:I think I'd agree with you on that subject. But then I go on to wonder...what's the point of keeping the knowledge of the Grey Knights from loyalist marines? Yes, yes..knowledge is power, guard it etc. But I'm talking logically here, not Imperium logic!

Now that at least, I don't know. I guess it could help keep the Grey Knights safe and/or incorruptible and help with an element of surprise, but that's me clutching at straws really...

It's possible that they don't want untrained people (Guardmen OR Marines) picking up on the rites, spells, or equipment of the Grey Knights to prevent any possibility of somebody else trying to use it, and do so incorrectly. Mispronouncing words within a spell (or using the wrong materials) could have disastrous consequences.

nobody wrote:

Just Dave wrote:

FireWolf698 wrote:I think I'd agree with you on that subject. But then I go on to wonder...what's the point of keeping the knowledge of the Grey Knights from loyalist marines? Yes, yes..knowledge is power, guard it etc. But I'm talking logically here, not Imperium logic!

Now that at least, I don't know. I guess it could help keep the Grey Knights safe and/or incorruptible and help with an element of surprise, but that's me clutching at straws really...

It's possible that they don't want untrained people (Guardmen OR Marines) picking up on the rites, spells, or equipment of the Grey Knights to prevent any possibility of somebody else trying to use it, and do so incorrectly. Mispronouncing words within a spell (or using the wrong materials) could have disastrous consequences.

Makes you wonder why they don't nick a load of those eldritch tomes, change a few key words and then get them back into circulation via various shady people or the odd unwitting traitor...
Counter-insurgency has never been so much fun...

purplefood wrote:

nobody wrote:

Just Dave wrote:

FireWolf698 wrote:I think I'd agree with you on that subject. But then I go on to wonder...what's the point of keeping the knowledge of the Grey Knights from loyalist marines? Yes, yes..knowledge is power, guard it etc. But I'm talking logically here, not Imperium logic!

Now that at least, I don't know. I guess it could help keep the Grey Knights safe and/or incorruptible and help with an element of surprise, but that's me clutching at straws really...

It's possible that they don't want untrained people (Guardmen OR Marines) picking up on the rites, spells, or equipment of the Grey Knights to prevent any possibility of somebody else trying to use it, and do so incorrectly. Mispronouncing words within a spell (or using the wrong materials) could have disastrous consequences.

Makes you wonder why they don't nick a load of those eldritch tomes, change a few key words and then get them back into circulation via various shady people or the odd unwitting traitor...
Counter-insurgency has never been so much fun...

Actually that could work, a would be cultist getting the spell wrong...and then they could just blame bluefeathers, is the sort of thing he would do anyway...

doc1234 wrote:

purplefood wrote:

nobody wrote:

Just Dave wrote:

FireWolf698 wrote:I think I'd agree with you on that subject. But then I go on to wonder...what's the point of keeping the knowledge of the Grey Knights from loyalist marines? Yes, yes..knowledge is power, guard it etc. But I'm talking logically here, not Imperium logic!

Now that at least, I don't know. I guess it could help keep the Grey Knights safe and/or incorruptible and help with an element of surprise, but that's me clutching at straws really...

It's possible that they don't want untrained people (Guardmen OR Marines) picking up on the rites, spells, or equipment of the Grey Knights to prevent any possibility of somebody else trying to use it, and do so incorrectly. Mispronouncing words within a spell (or using the wrong materials) could have disastrous consequences.

Makes you wonder why they don't nick a load of those eldritch tomes, change a few key words and then get them back into circulation via various shady people or the odd unwitting traitor...
Counter-insurgency has never been so much fun...

Actually that could work, a would be cultist getting the spell wrong...and then they could just blame bluefeathers, is the sort of thing he would do anyway...

Of course it would work.
It's a genius idea.
The best bit about it is that Chaos sorcerors are so egotistical and power grabbing they are just gonna think the previous bunch did it wrong...
Also it's basically a no maintenance operation. Every 50 or so years just grab a load more tomes and alter them slightly before letting them back into circulation again...

purplefood wrote:

doc1234 wrote:

purplefood wrote:

nobody wrote:

Just Dave wrote:

FireWolf698 wrote:I think I'd agree with you on that subject. But then I go on to wonder...what's the point of keeping the knowledge of the Grey Knights from loyalist marines? Yes, yes..knowledge is power, guard it etc. But I'm talking logically here, not Imperium logic!

Now that at least, I don't know. I guess it could help keep the Grey Knights safe and/or incorruptible and help with an element of surprise, but that's me clutching at straws really...

It's possible that they don't want untrained people (Guardmen OR Marines) picking up on the rites, spells, or equipment of the Grey Knights to prevent any possibility of somebody else trying to use it, and do so incorrectly. Mispronouncing words within a spell (or using the wrong materials) could have disastrous consequences.

Makes you wonder why they don't nick a load of those eldritch tomes, change a few key words and then get them back into circulation via various shady people or the odd unwitting traitor...
Counter-insurgency has never been so much fun...

Actually that could work, a would be cultist getting the spell wrong...and then they could just blame bluefeathers, is the sort of thing he would do anyway...

Of course it would work.
It's a genius idea.
The best bit about it is that Chaos sorcerors are so egotistical and power grabbing they are just gonna think the previous bunch did it wrong...
Also it's basically a no maintenance operation. Every 50 or so years just grab a load more tomes and alter them slightly before letting them back into circulation again...

AANNDDDD im stealing this for RP device...

it would solve the sorcerer problem on its own once enough books get altered, but leave some "whole" as bait. "hmm this spell seems to work, and i could do that. But i heard no ones done that one before. the gods will surely favour me if i can pull it off". you my good sir are a tactical genius. No creed jokes.

Obviously leave a few functional, albeit low damage, rites in there but make sure the major ones are set to go spectacularly wrong for those trying to cast them...
You're welcome to it

It actually wouldn't surprise me at all if radical inquisitors do just that, leaving a "hub" open in a cultist network that they disseminate incorrect information through using patsies and informants.

I'm not sure about radicals...
They seem more into using the enemy's power against them rather than sabotaging the power itself...
That said it's hardly something a puritan would do so something between the two sides but leaning towards radical I guess.