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I am thinking of adding some Eldar as allies to my IG mostly for gaks n giggles, and partially for their anti-psyker abilities. So I am wondering what (if any) black library books, or any other forum of fluff out there has Eldar/human relations. Is there and Eldar equivelent to Gue’vesa? Finally why do Eldar like Tau more than Humans, I mean Tau an even younger/less experienced race than humanity, and IIRC they refuse to join the "Greater Good" so shouldn't they be in conflict?

The Eldar equivelent to Gue’vesa is Monkiegh.

Makarov wrote:I am thinking of adding some Eldar as allies to my IG mostly for gaks n giggles, and partially for their anti-psyker abilities. So I am wondering what (if any) black library books, or any other forum of fluff out there has Eldar/human relations. Is there and Eldar equivelent to Gue’vesa? Finally why do Eldar like Tau more than Humans, I mean Tau an even younger/less experienced race than humanity, and IIRC they refuse to join the "Greater Good" so shouldn't they be in conflict?

The Eldar think all of them are inferior. There are rumors pointing towards Eldar for the creation of Ethreals. Additionally, the Eldar see the Humans as a lost race already, they are following the same path if not a worst one that the Eldar already followed. I think the Tau are seen "in limbo", they aren't lost but to the Eldar they are not heading in the right direction either. Due to the fact that they don't feel the Tau are totally lost, I think they give them more initial credit than they would a Human.

As far as I can tell Eldar see more of themselves in the tau as they do humans.
"I have followed the myriad potential futures of the Tau with great interest. Though barely even striplings compared to us, I feel a strange protectiveness towards them. In time I believe they will exceed even our greatest feats and master the darkness within their souls."
This is what Eldrad had to say about tau in the 3rd ed dex.

As for Eldar views on Tau, I imagine it's a mix of:
1.) The same disdain for both. It's like debating which kind of ant you like
2.) They like humans more, because they are more psychically inclined and thus on a higher level/more similar to the Eldar
3.) They like Tau more, because they're not as violent or reckless as humans.

As for books that deal with Eldar-Humans interaction, only one I can think of is Eisenhorn. The Path of the Warrior/Seer books have human-Eldar action, but it's all fighting and mostly you see how little the Eldar think of humanity.


So much so you almost are glad when Eldar get hammered by the Imperium/

Harriticus wrote:

As for books that deal with Eldar-Humans interaction, only one I can think of is Eisenhorn. The Path of the Warrior/Seer books have human-Eldar action, but it's all fighting and mostly you see how little the Eldar think of humanity.

Although that (the Eisenhorn thing) was more due to Gideon Ravenor, his once student (and the much more psychic of them). Ravenor bought the Eldar to that battle (or rather was allowed to accompany them to it. Lesser species do NOT simply command the Eldar to do anything.)

Farseer (novel) also had a couple of eldar interacting with humans (although it was not widely known that they were not humans as they were masked/hooded most of the time).

Eldar see humans as little more than hairless primates playing with matches in gunpowder factory. It was humans who awakened the slumbering necrons. They rush headlong into things without looking at the big picture.

OTOH, the Craftworld Eldar spent way too long contemplating their own navels, and almost didn't get out before the rest of their empire self destructed (they were warned by the Exodites - the first to leave, long before the fall). Perhaps they thought it would just "sort itself out".

Humans and Eldar don't generally get on though. Not with the whole "Fear the Xenos" and "destroy the xenos" attitudes around - and their inability to NOT blather their thoughts around to any who can sense them is considered annoying (imagine being able to HEAR every (EVERY single one of them) twitter post in your head at the same time instead of having to read your phone and filter them. This is what a world of humans must feel like to an Eldar.)

chromedog wrote:
Humans and Eldar don't generally get on though. Not with the whole "Fear the Xenos" and "destroy the xenos" attitudes around - and their inability to NOT blather their thoughts around to any who can sense them is considered annoying (imagine being able to HEAR every (EVERY single one of them) twitter post in your head at the same time instead of having to read your phone and filter them. This is what a world of humans must feel like to an Eldar.)

Strange...neither the Emperor, Magnus, Malcador, Librarians, Daemonhunters, and Inqusitors don't seem to have that problem. Who knew? Eldar lack psychic 'filtering'...and they call themselves a psychic race.

Makarov wrote:I am thinking of adding some Eldar as allies to my IG mostly for gaks n giggles, and partially for their anti-psyker abilities. So I am wondering what (if any) black library books, or any other forum of fluff out there has Eldar/human relations. Is there and Eldar equivelent to Gue’vesa? Finally why do Eldar like Tau more than Humans, I mean Tau an even younger/less experienced race than humanity, and IIRC they refuse to join the "Greater Good" so shouldn't they be in conflict?

I am not sure if the Edlar and Tau have had any direct / official contact - in the codexes the Kroot have eaten Eldar Rangers and the Dark Eldar "harvested" at lest one sept but the exaltd Craftworlds have so far been content to observe the newcomers - perhaps as they did when Humanity first ventured out amongst the stars............give a few thousand years and the Tau may be considered no better than the hairless apes of humanity

The Eldar certainly would have no qualms about manipulating humanity - it is conceievable that they might create a force of humans to fight on their behalf rather than just mainipulating them in the background as is seen in so many novels or simly employing mercenaries.

The Eldar tend to avoid any form of multiple race colonies as much as humniaty and certain Craftworlds exterminate humans on their terrority pretty much on sight.

Again there is a posisbility that a unusual situation could result in a human world ruled by the Eldar and using them as military force- but its highly unlikely I feel.

Tadashi wrote: Eldar lack psychic 'filtering'...and they call themselves a psychic race.

More that they ALWAYS have to have the blocks up in order to function around humans. It's mentioned by them (in Farseer) as "a tiring experience". It's a discipline and training thing that the seers ALL have to do (also covered in Path of the Seer). You have to constantly tune them out.
There is no "quiet space" that Eldar can retreat to when around humans. Imagine you are constantly surrounded by four year olds with tourettes - and you can't shut them up because the voices are ALL INSIDE YOUR HEAD.

chromedog wrote:

Tadashi wrote: Eldar lack psychic 'filtering'...and they call themselves a psychic race.

More that they ALWAYS have to have the blocks up in order to function around humans. It's mentioned by them (in Farseer) as "a tiring experience". It's a discipline and training thing that the seers ALL have to do (also covered in Path of the Seer). You have to constantly tune them out.
There is no "quiet space" that Eldar can retreat to when around humans. Imagine you are constantly surrounded by four year olds with tourettes - and you can't shut them up because the voices are ALL INSIDE YOUR HEAD.

And I once again re-iterate: the Emperor, Magnus, Malcador, Librarians, Grey Knights (debatable), and psychic Inquisitors have no such problem hanging around with normal Humans all the time, and considering the first three are definitely more powerful than any Eldar, with the fourth and the fifth arguably on the same level, well, I'm sure you get the picture. In fact, Sanctioned Psykers seem to be the only ones to have problems filtering out the thoughts of Humans around them. I certainly haven't heard of an Astropath complaining about nearby Humans and their thoughts.

Probably a matter of training and over all psychic potential. If you build a fence out of cotton it's not exactly a good fence is it? The type of psycher who becomes a GK, Inquisitor, or a high level sanctioned pyscher is strong enough that mere human thoughts would bounce off their defenses given time and training.

Now with Eldar we know they have strong psycher potential but that A. doesn't mean they're all psychers and B. if your entire species is telepathic you probably learn to cover your own thoughts and block others innately, like a natural fire wall. But that type of innate defense doesn't adjust well, it's set against a certain pattern on a certain "frequency" so if humans are on a completely different frequency, and you've never practiced filtering because why should you? Where you're from everyone's got that gak locked down before they can walk...

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Probably a matter of training and over all psychic potential. If you build a fence out of cotton it's not exactly a good fence is it? The type of psycher who becomes a GK, Inquisitor, or a high level sanctioned pyscher is strong enough that mere human thoughts would bounce off their defenses given time and training.

Now with Eldar we know they have strong psycher potential but that A. doesn't mean they're all psychers and B. if your entire species is telepathic you probably learn to cover your own thoughts and block others innately, like a natural fire wall. But that type of innate defense doesn't adjust well, it's set against a certain pattern on a certain "frequency" so if humans are on a completely different frequency, and you've never practiced filtering because why should you? Where you're from everyone's got that gak locked down before they can walk...

Whereas Human psykers train to block everything they don't recognize as 'friendly'...that should explain why the more-potent Human psykers don't get troubled by random thoughts, whether Human or Eldar - well, Librarians don't, and I don't recall Ravenor complaining whenever he was hanging around with the Eldar.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:PNow with Eldar we know they have strong psycher potential but that A. doesn't mean they're all psychers and B. if your entire species is telepathic you probably learn to cover your own thoughts and block others innately, like a natural fire wall. But that type of innate defense doesn't adjust well, it's set against a certain pattern on a certain "frequency" so if humans are on a completely different frequency, and you've never practiced filtering because why should you? Where you're from everyone's got that gak locked down before they can walk...

This. Also, while Eldar psychic potential is very much tended towards telepathy and divinatory powers, not all human psykers are either one. Specialisation pays off, I guess.

While I'll give you the Emperor and Magnus as equal psykers on these fields to Eldar, everyone else falls far short of even an average (who is currently exploring that part of his psyche) eldar.

Finally, there is the narrative imperative. While it's cool to mention in a story/novel that the Eldar are such incredibly sensitive telepathic psykers that they pick up stray thoughts from everyone on the planet, when you have to mention this all the time for your main character it begins to detract from the story, its actual points and themes. Hence, when a novel is written from a human psyker's POV, while they may also pick up this stuff, it's left out of the story, because it doesn't add anything, and detracts from the overall plot. Less is more.

Actually this might work if we continue in the "band" theory of thought. That is to say all thought is on frequencies. So a high power psycher, say a Primaris psycher or a Librarian of Inquisitor, has some serious juice for his "jamming signal" a lower power psycher, say a standard sanctioned psycher doesn't have the same level of power to put behind his shields, so it's more of a "modulating" jamming signal where it focuses on the bands where he's getting the most interference, or the higher bands where threats are going to come in. Meanwhile human thought is on the low band, and our sanctioned psycher doesn't really have the power to spare to block them out and remain combat/defense ready if something should try to burn through his jamming.

Kinda reminds me of Star Trek Online, you have X amount of power available and have to devote it to certain subsystems. If you as a psycher have to put all your strength behind a basic jamming for it to be functional you're pretty much Golden Throne bait because you're useless. You can't even really defend yourself or reinforce your own defenses, where a sanctioned psycher or an astropath can maintain his or her defenses, have some extra to juice to toss at them if needed WHILE doing their jobs. Whether that's tossing powers at the bad guys or transmitting/receiving stellar communications. So while a sanctioned psycher has the ability, it's more that he has better things to do with the power and focus required then make himself a dram more comfortable.

Dawn of War: Winter Assault had Eldar and Imperial Guardsmen working together temporarily.

Codex: Space Marines have Crimson Fists and Eldar working together to fight off a Horde of Orks.

Ultramarines, the Imperial Fleet, and a Craftworld worked together to fight off Hive Fleet: Behemoth.

There's plenty of examples of Eldar and Humans working together, if their goals align. I imagine some Eldar Corsairs hire themselves out as mercenaries to more tolerant Imperial Governers.

Ravenor reads people's minds quite easily. He does, in fact, "work" to block it out, though for a psyker of his power, it's nearly a reflexive action.



..as to the Tau? They haven't destroyed any Craftworlds yet. Probably a big plus for them in the eyes of the Eldar, as opposed to the humans. Also, yes,mon keigh is pronounced "monkey".

Bran Dawri wrote:

While I'll give you the Emperor and Magnus as equal psykers on these fields to Eldar, everyone else falls far short of even an average (who is currently exploring that part of his psyche) eldar.

Excuse me? I just choked on a sandwich...equal, you say? Friend, you need to check up on their power levels.

1) The Emperor - he made all four Powers get their act together, something no Eldar has ever done.
2) Magnus - hello? The old man intended for him to take control of the Webway from the Eldar through the Golden Throne.

[Mod Edit - No need to go there - please be mindful of the rules of this site. Thanks - Alpharius]

I've always pronounced it Mon Kai personally

Irreverent and irrelevant side note, re: pointy ears

Vulcans vs. Eldar space elves vs. pointy eared hob goblins. Who'd win in a fight to the death?

KalashnikovMarine wrote:I've always pronounced it Mon Kai personally

So did I...I've also considered them as space elves...must have been watching too much anime/reading too much manga...for some reason, I'm caught up in the stereotype that all elves are blonde, pointy-eared, young women. BTW, do Eldar even look old?

Aren't they space elves? I mean that's how their fluff comes off, high elves. Just with a side order of "Whoops sorry guys, accidentally created a god who thirsts for our souls" which follows the rather standard elf "Damocles" experimenting with forbidden magics and now dying out as a race while humans start running around ruining everything, trope from pretty much all fantasy involving elves.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Aren't they space elves? I mean that's how their fluff comes off, high elves. Just with a side order of "Whoops sorry guys, accidentally created a god who thirsts for our souls" which follows the rather standard elf "Damocles" experimenting with forbidden magics and now dying out as a race while humans start running around ruining everything, trope from pretty much all fantasy involving elves.

Do they have to be SO arrogant? High Elves in LOTR are were allies of Humans, and even non-LOTR depictions don't show them as far up their fundaments as the Eldar are.

Probably not, but look at what this universe did to Dark Elves, makes sense they'd take everything else up to 11 too.

Tadashi wrote:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Aren't they space elves? I mean that's how their fluff comes off, high elves. Just with a side order of "Whoops sorry guys, accidentally created a god who thirsts for our souls" which follows the rather standard elf "Damocles" experimenting with forbidden magics and now dying out as a race while humans start running around ruining everything, trope from pretty much all fantasy involving elves.

Do they have to be SO arrogant? High Elves in LOTR are were allies of Humans, and even non-LOTR depictions don't show them as far up their fundaments as the Eldar are.

Because they aren't elves. Simple as.

By the way, why ally with a regime which makes the fundamentalists in northern Mali seem like progressive thinkers?

Mahtamori wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Aren't they space elves? I mean that's how their fluff comes off, high elves. Just with a side order of "Whoops sorry guys, accidentally created a god who thirsts for our souls" which follows the rather standard elf "Damocles" experimenting with forbidden magics and now dying out as a race while humans start running around ruining everything, trope from pretty much all fantasy involving elves.

Do they have to be SO arrogant? High Elves in LOTR are were allies of Humans, and even non-LOTR depictions don't show them as far up their fundaments as the Eldar are.

Because they aren't elves. Simple as.

Yes, they are...
1) Pointy-ears...check!
2) Virtual immortality...check!
3) Knowledge, beauty, and wisdom (debatable) beyond mortals/Humans...check!

They're just "High Elves from Warhammer Fantasy in SPAAACE!!!"

By the way, why ally with a regime which makes the fundamentalists in northern Mali seem like progressive thinkers?

We weren't that way always...Eldrad going medieval in the middle of what was supposed to be a peace conference effectively affirmed Human preconceptions regarding the Eldar.

Eldrad always was a bit of an arse wasn't he?

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Eldrad always was a bit of an arse wasn't he?

For a 'superior being' he sure acted like a paranoid and gun-happy Human Inquisitor...why am I even expecting better? Eldar didn't naturally evolve like Humans, they were designed to be what they are millions of years ago by the Old Ones - it stands to logic that since they didn't evolve/develop naturally to their current level of achievement, they're not all that mature/superior at all, physical and mental abilities otherwise. Humans, on the other hand, are evolving - our (and even the Tau) potential is greater than theirs. We can, and we will, surpass them.

Chromedog has frankly said all that's important on the subject, but I'll add the suggestion that you also look to GW's source material: Michael Moorcock. The elf/Eldar-equivalents of his stories (the Eldren in the Erekose stories, the Vadagh in the Corum ones, and of course the Melniboneans in Elric) do a better job of explaining the Eldar's contempt for humanity, and in vastly better prose, than GW ever will.

Eldar and humans have worked together out of desperation, against common enemies like Orks, Chaos, and Tyranids.

Also, the reason Tau and Eldar get along so well is that Tau are slightly less likely to kill the Eldar.

Also, the Eldar see the Tau as being more advanced and culturally developed, whereas to them, the humans are barbaric primitives.

I just picked up a book called "Atlas Infernal". I have just started reading it so I still don't know much. But, so far the main characters is an ordano Xenos Inquisitor who was invited to an Eldar craft world, and is fascinated by them. Trying to learn as much about their culture/tech as possible. That said I'm less than 20 pages in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chromedog wrote:

Harriticus wrote:

As for books that deal with Eldar-Humans interaction, only one I can think of is Eisenhorn. The Path of the Warrior/Seer books have human-Eldar action, but it's all fighting and mostly you see how little the Eldar think of humanity.

Although that (the Eisenhorn thing) was more due to Gideon Ravenor, his once student (and the much more psychic of them). Ravenor bought the Eldar to that battle (or rather was allowed to accompany them to it. Lesser species do NOT simply command the Eldar to do anything.)

Farseer (novel) also had a couple of eldar interacting with humans (although it was not widely known that they were not humans as they were masked/hooded most of the time).

Eldar see humans as little more than hairless primates playing with matches in gunpowder factory. It was humans who awakened the slumbering necrons. They rush headlong into things without looking at the big picture.

OTOH, the Craftworld Eldar spent way too long contemplating their own navels, and almost didn't get out before the rest of their empire self destructed (they were warned by the Exodites - the first to leave, long before the fall). Perhaps they thought it would just "sort itself out".

Humans and Eldar don't generally get on though. Not with the whole "Fear the Xenos" and "destroy the xenos" attitudes around - and their inability to NOT blather their thoughts around to any who can sense them is considered annoying (imagine being able to HEAR every (EVERY single one of them) twitter post in your head at the same time instead of having to read your phone and filter them. This is what a world of humans must feel like to an Eldar.)

I realize that is the general general handling of the the Human/Eldar fluff. I am just wondering if there are any novels out there any pieces of fluff out there that stray from that.

Deathwatch and Eldar work together in Warrior Coven. **edit** Figured I should add, this was because the Ordo Xenos had made a bargain with the Eldar for something, alas I can't remember exactly what and the book is sitting with its other novel at my Ex's.

Eldar and Inquisition worked together on the Ordo Hydra thing, with a human being a somewhat part of the Harlequins. That is however undoubtedly no longer part of 40k though since it had a squat (which I think was removed in later printings), involved the "star child" thing and the Emperor having sons and bringing about the Sensei Emperor thing.

On the above though, the things with Eldrad going ape, is that the one from Fulgrim?