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So this feels like a dumb question, but can a unit with the infiltrate special rule choose to deploy normally so that they could begin the game with an IC who doesn't have infiltrate? or by virtue of having the universal special rule are they always considered infiltrators regardless of where they deploy?

Its a choice. You are not forced to Infiltrate if you don't want to.

Infiltrators always infiltrate. The BRB clearly states that they deploy last, it mentions no choice.

So no, they cannot be deployed with an IC that doesn't have Infiltrate.

Borntolose wrote:Infiltrators always infiltrate. The BRB clearly states that they deploy last, it mentions no choice.

apart from on page 121

BRB wrote: both players deploy their forces (apart from units left in reserve or that chose to use their Infiltrate special rule)

Borntolose wrote:So no, they cannot be deployed with an IC that doesn't have Infiltrate.

Correct here. BRB is pretty clear on this on page 38

Borntolose wrote:Infiltrators always infiltrate. The BRB clearly states that they deploy last, it mentions no choice.

So no, they cannot be deployed with an IC that doesn't have Infiltrate.

Sometimes you have to read more than the USR to understand how something works. Page 38 is how infiltrators deploy when they infiltrate. Page 121 says that you deploy all your forces except reserves and those units who have chosen to use their infiltrate rule first. Then you deploy infiltrators as described on page 38. If they choose not to infiltrate, as page 121 says that they can, they may be deployed with an IC who doesn't infiltrate as normal.

Captain Antivas wrote:

Borntolose wrote:Infiltrators always infiltrate. The BRB clearly states that they deploy last, it mentions no choice.

So no, they cannot be deployed with an IC that doesn't have Infiltrate.

Sometimes you have to read more than the USR to understand how something works. Page 38 is how infiltrators deploy when they infiltrate. Page 121 says that you deploy all your forces except reserves and those units who have chosen to use their infiltrate rule first. Then you deploy infiltrators as described on page 38. If they choose not to infiltrate, as page 121 says that they can, they may be deployed with an IC who doesn't infiltrate as normal.

Thats all well and good... But page 121 referencing a choice that is never granted does nothing to remove a very clear rule in infiltrate: page 38, Infiltrate: "Units that contain ay least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units(friend and foe) have been deployed."

Nowhere in that line does it tell you that they only deploy last if you are deploying them through the Infiltrate options. You always deploy using infiltrate(since home DZ is still valid) and if your unit contains 1 model with infiltrate, your unit deploys with all the other infiltrators no matter where you deploy them.

Sometimes you have to read what a rule says to understand how it works; and sometimes(read very often) GW writes statements within rules that seem like they are granting(or assuming) permissions that simply are not there.

If you want another example of 2 instances of the same rule clashing look at Pages 57 and 415, the entries for heavy Stubber: on 57 it is listed as AP-. On 415 it has the correct Stats with AP6.

The situation with the Heavy Stubber is unfortunate, however not relevant. The rules on page 121 say that when deploying Infiltrators you have a choice. If you choose to infiltrate you follow the infiltrate rules on page 38. The rules on Page 38 then say that only one model in the unit needs to have the Infiltrate rule to be deployed as Infiltrators. Could it have been worded better, yes; but it is hardly a contradiction.

As others have stated infiltration is an optional use and ICs are fine to attach. Quotes on applicable rules have already been made so nothing to add there.

No, the rules on page 121 reference you having made a choice.

Nowhere in the rest of the book is that choice ever given; and the Infiltrate rule is very specific about not having a choice just from having the rule within your unit.

You should also read the rules on page 38(or even just my Quote above); it is in a format of "If X, Then Y" with "If the unit has the rule; then the unit deploys last".

Find me the actual option, because I can(and did) cite the command.

Why would you never want to infiltrate? It is a powerful ability to deploy last. As far as attaching an IC, I believe this will take place automatically based on proximity of the IC to the unit... So as an example, you have all of your army concentrated on the left flank but you place an IC on the right flank alone... So now you place your infiltrators and you decide to place them around the IC. Check the rules and verify how an IC attaches to a unit but I believe it is automatic... So the only pain is that you have to place the IC and then your infiltrator.

The limitation you are accepting at that point is your infiltrator will be within your deployment zone due to the IC having to deploy legally.

Kapitan Montag wrote:
apart from on page 121

BRB wrote: both players deploy their forces (apart from units left in reserve or that chose to use their Infiltrate special rule)

Page 121 talks about units that have chosen to deploy using infiltrate. However, the USR never states that the unit can choose whether or not to Infiltrate.

BRB wrote:
Units that contain at least one model with this special rule deploy last...

It might be an oversight and RAI Infiltrators should be allowed to deploy normally, but there seems to be no point where you are given the choice of whether or not to Infiltrate.

Since when was page 121 not part of the rules? RAW a unit with the Infiltrate rule can choose to deploy as normal.

seems the chosen section reguarding Infiltrators on page121 could reguard deploying them on the board or holding them in reserve for outflank. sadly this portion of the rule is interpretive and would come down to judgement.

under infiltrate special rules is specifically states that ICs without the rule cannot join a unit that does have it during deployment. so even if you deployed the unit within 2" of the IC, it still couldn't join it until the ic moved into the unit during the movement phase. This seems to be the case even If you can chose to not use infiltrate to deploy.

I guess in our attempt to keep ICs from infiltrating without the rule, we messed up normal deployment options to coincide.

Its just like the assault vehicle rules. if you wreck your trukk on your own turn, you can assault, but if your opponent does you cant.

I agree with KKel on this one. I'll spare you all the part where I just retype what he's already said.

Captain Antivas wrote:Since when was page 121 not part of the rules? RAW a unit with the Infiltrate rule can choose to deploy as normal.

Since when does an anecdotal statement supersede a direct command within the rules?


Show me where permission is granted for the choice; not just some anecdotal reference to a choice having already been made.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:Since when was page 121 not part of the rules? RAW a unit with the Infiltrate rule can choose to deploy as normal.

Since when does an anecdotal statement supersede a direct command within the rules?


Show me where permission is granted for the choice; not just some anecdotal reference to a choice having already been made.

A reference to a choice being made says a choice is possible. What proof do you have that the accident is not leaving it out of the USR? The permission is given you don't get to just label it as an accident and ignore it.

The reason that you may want to deploy normally is that Choosers of the slain can be used carefully to deny you any ability to infiltrate in large areas of the board.

Captain Antivas wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:Since when was page 121 not part of the rules? RAW a unit with the Infiltrate rule can choose to deploy as normal.

Since when does an anecdotal statement supersede a direct command within the rules?


Show me where permission is granted for the choice; not just some anecdotal reference to a choice having already been made.

A reference to a choice being made says a choice is possible. What proof do you have that the accident is not leaving it out of the USR? The permission is given you don't get to just label it as an accident and ignore it.

A reference without actual permission is not permission.

The proof that the accident is not that it is left out of the USR is the USRs incredibly specific wording.

Where is this permission given; I want a specific Permission cited because until then you go by the Infiltrates more specific rule:

BRB page 38, Infiltrate: wrote: "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units(friend and foe) have been deployed."

Fine, how about page 424?

"The player deploying first then deploys their entire force within their deployment zone, excluding units using their Infiltrate special rule and any units being kept as reserves."
"Units using the Infiltrate special rule are deployed next."

Using their rule. Not those units who have the rule, but the units who are using it. By choice. Using it is a choice. In context of the rest of the rules it makes more sense that it is a choice. 2 rules that say choice vs 1 that does not. Or are there 2 accidents here?

+1 for Captain Antivas.

By Kel's logic, any unit with the Deep Strike rule MUST arrive by Deep Strike.

Captain Antivas wrote:Fine, how about page 424?

"The player deploying first then deploys their entire force within their deployment zone, excluding units using their Infiltrate special rule and any units being kept as reserves."
"Units using the Infiltrate special rule are deployed next."

Using their rule. Not those units who have the rule, but the units who are using it. By choice. Using it is a choice. In context of the rest of the rules it makes more sense that it is a choice. 2 rules that say choice vs 1 that does not. Or are there 2 accidents here?

Well, now you've started to change my mind (no rulebooks on me today, thanks for quoting). I went down fighting in the challenge thread that summary is rules too, and I stand by that.

However, using can just mean those able to use, not those choosing to use. When I get home I'll have to read up on this.

Captain Antivas wrote:Fine, how about page 424?

"The player deploying first then deploys their entire force within their deployment zone, excluding units using their Infiltrate special rule and any units being kept as reserves."
"Units using the Infiltrate special rule are deployed next."

Using their rule. Not those units who have the rule, but the units who are using it. By choice. Using it is a choice. In context of the rest of the rules it makes more sense that it is a choice. 2 rules that say choice vs 1 that does not. Or are there 2 accidents here?

I definately give you the +1 for that one. good find.

Thats why I like using YMDC when new rules appear. great for finding those tidbits you miss after a dozen mind numbing reads through.

liturgies of blood wrote:The reason that you may want to deploy normally is that Choosers of the slain can be used carefully to deny you any ability to infiltrate in large areas of the board.

There's nothing stopping you from infiltrating into your own deployment zone.

But you could also be on a table that has essentially no cover. Like I was today. It was awesome lemme tell you.

(although I just outflanked with the stealers instead of infiltrating where all his guns would own me.

rigeld2 wrote:

liturgies of blood wrote:The reason that you may want to deploy normally is that Choosers of the slain can be used carefully to deny you any ability to infiltrate in large areas of the board.

There's nothing stopping you from infiltrating into your own deployment zone.

But you could also be on a table that has essentially no cover. Like I was today. It was awesome lemme tell you.

(although I just outflanked with the stealers instead of infiltrating where all his guns would own me.

In general you are correct but I also covered that in my last game with the chooser's area of effect. It forced the infiltrators to be put in a very awkward position on the board or in the middle of a bare patch of board.

In the same Infiltrate special rule it says that units with infiltrate may use the outflank rules. Since the outflank rules require you to be in reserves that sets up an intrinsic conflict within the infiltrate rules. How can a unit that must be deployed as infiltrators also have the option of being put in reserves?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:In the same Infiltrate special rule it says that units with infiltrate may use the outflank rules. Since the outflank rules require you to be in reserves that sets up an intrinsic conflict within the infiltrate rules. How can a unit that must be deployed as infiltrators also have the option of being put in reserves?

Because Reserves is the only other option.

You can deploy last via Infiltrate, or you can go in reserves(with possibility of Outflank); and there Antivas is your referred to Choice.

If you are deploying your infiltrators during the pregame deployment; they deploy last and via infiltrate.

If you keep them in reserve(including outflank or, if they have the Deep strike rule, by deep striking); then they are not one of the units you have chose to use the infiltrate special rule.

The Choosing/Chosen Anecdote is applied, all rules are applied; no rules are required to be made up.

What happened to not having a choice and having to be deployed last? If they have the choice to be placed in reserves they have the choice to be deployed normally. They gain the ability to Outflank how? Oh, the Infiltrate special rule. So what happens if they don't use their Infiltrate special rule? They can't Outflank and can still be deployed as normal. And amazingly no rules have been made up.

I'm not seeing too much of a conflict here. That specific line from page 38...
"Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units(friend and foe) have been deployed."
...ONLY covers WHEN your infiltrators deploy. You'll have to correct me if I'm wrong - no book here with me - but I believe the rest of the rule covers things that the Infiltrators *CAN* do. So there's nothing saying that they have to deploy outside their deployment zone.

While at the moment this means that an IC has to be deployed beforehand, there's nothing stopping you from deploying the IC right next to them, within coherency. Now... I'm afraid I'll need one of you to look something up for me. What's the ruling on when an IC is considered joined to a unit? Must they "move" within coherency, or simply "be" within coherency and have it declared?

Captain Antivas wrote:What happened to not having a choice and having to be deployed last? If they have the choice to be placed in reserves they have the choice to be deployed normally. They gain the ability to Outflank how? Oh, the Infiltrate special rule. So what happens if they don't use their Infiltrate special rule? They can't Outflank and can still be deployed as normal. And amazingly no rules have been made up.

Still retained: they have no choice to deploy normally.

They have a choice to dep\ly via the reserves rule granted by...

wait for it...

the reserve rules.

They can deploy "Normally"; which defaults to the Infiltrate rules, because those rules dictate their deployment; or they can go into reserve to deploy via the reserve rules, outflank, or deep strike(deep strike requiring them to have that rule)

Deploying during normal deployment, within their deployment zone while you are deploying the rest of your forces, is never possible as you have no permission to do so.

I expanded my statements to include the 1 time you have a choice on whether you deploy them via infiltrate or not; you still are claiming that you can deploy them normally, where is your permission?

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:What happened to not having a choice and having to be deployed last? If they have the choice to be placed in reserves they have the choice to be deployed normally. They gain the ability to Outflank how? Oh, the Infiltrate special rule. So what happens if they don't use their Infiltrate special rule? They can't Outflank and can still be deployed as normal. And amazingly no rules have been made up.

Still retained: they have no choice to deploy normally.

They have a choice to dep\ly via the reserves rule granted by...

wait for it...

the reserve rules.

They can deploy "Normally"; which defaults to the Infiltrate rules, because those rules dictate their deployment; or they can go into reserve to deploy via the reserve rules, outflank, or deep strike(deep strike requiring them to have that rule)

Deploying during normal deployment, within their deployment zone while you are deploying the rest of your forces, is never possible as you have no permission to do so.

I expanded my statements to include the 1 time you have a choice on whether you deploy them via infiltrate or not; you still are claiming that you can deploy them normally, where is your permission?

Objection, asked an answered. Ignoring the points that are inconvenient is not a valid argument. You choose to use infiltrate or not. If you do you infiltrate or outflank. If you don't you deploy as normal or in reserves. If you have the choice to be in reserves you have made a choice to not use your infiltrate rule which you say is not possible. The rule has been posted, you just refuse to see it.