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Okay guys and girls, who is the top tactician, is it the quite stealthy Corax, the siege expert who was famed as the best at taking down fortresses Perturbo, the defensive rogal dorn, the majestic Sanguinius, the grim warfare of Curze, the speartips of Horrus, the thinking outside of the box Ferrus Mannis, the overlapping perfectionist Fulgrim?

Who do you chaps think it the best tactical genius. Not strongest, not best with a sword, the best Tactician, this includes Battle plans, Void warfare, strategic mind, deployment, countering the enemy.

i dont think Ive forgotten anyone

The Ultramarines.

Alpharius, due to poor writing. His theme is 'not an idiot like the rest of the Primarchs.' He's regarded as a genius for extremely basic ideas such as.... attacking the enemy when they don't think you're going to attack.

The Ultramarines

why? i dont understand ultramarine fans, they do not seem to have any redeeming qualities that i have read at. what are their top strong points? their primarch apparently steals all of Dorns honor, and is he a good tactician or does he just have large numbers, and a strong economy and planetary setup, from my understanding hes smart at politics and governments and recruitment like hes a good political head, and organizer but in warfare?

Frecklesonfire wrote:

The Ultramarines

why? i dont understand ultramarine fans, they do not seem to have any redeeming qualities that i have read at. what are their top strong points? their primarch apparently steals all of Dorns honor, and is he a good tactician or does he just have large numbers, and a strong economy and planetary setup, from my understanding hes smart at politics and governments and recruitment like hes a good political head, and organizer but in warfare?

He was a great stratagist and logistical genius...


This goes to Lion, fluff states as much.

amount of wins go to in order
1. Horus
2.Lion
3.Russ
IIRC
So best tactician would be Horus.

Though I hate him (Luther was the true leader of the Dark Angels!) the Lion is the best tactician. He is very versatile with his troops as well as good a thinking of things on the spot. His strategies are not focused in on one field (i.e. Ravenguard stealth).

Ultramarine hate is SOO cool guys. It's not like Robute did anything important. You know, it's perfectly ok to like the Ultramarines without being a fanboy.

The Codex Astartes has had a major impact on the Space Marines and their tactics. Sure, you don't need them, but they've proven to be an effective foundation for those who follow them.

And numbers? Really? The Space Wolves and Black Templars have more than 1,000 marines, so before people start accusing the Ultramarines of having excess numbers they really ought to do their homework.

Additionally, the Ultramar system wasn't some sort of easy thing to establish. It really is a testament to the skill of the Ultramarines that they can maintain those planets while still gaining incredible honors in the field. It doesn't make them better than other chapters, but it is harder to do.

Frecklesonfire wrote:

The Ultramarines

why? i dont understand ultramarine fans, they do not seem to have any redeeming qualities that i have read at. what are their top strong points? their primarch apparently steals all of Dorns honor, and is he a good tactician or does he just have large numbers, and a strong economy and planetary setup, from my understanding hes smart at politics and governments and recruitment like hes a good political head, and organizer but in warfare?

Dorn and Guilliman's honor are separate entities, it's not anyone else's fault that you can't keep them straight. Dorn almost destroyed his own legion and turned into a massive masochist after Terra. Guilliman took charge when the rest of his brothers turned to their own affairs and didn't care for the galaxy at large or disappeared.

You have to remember that every legion tended to have different specialities in how they fought. Russ was the enforcer, he was the original marine on marine combat master. Fulgrim was perfection and he and his legion specialized and mastered their arts, but perfection cannot cope with imperfection that is war. Dorn is a master of defensive warfare. Perterabo is siege warfare. Mortation was foot soldiers. Ferrus Manus was vehicular warfare. Vulkan was tech. Corax was stealth. Curze was terror. Lorgar was fanatisism. Angron was rage. The Lion was very tactical but also very ruthless and paranoid. Horus was charismatic and had the mind for campaigns. Guilliman was intelligent and had the mind for details. Alpharius/Omegadon subterfuge.

In my opinion it comes down to Lion'El, Guilliman or Horus. Lion'El is shown constantly planning and throwing away idea after idea. Horus is warmaster, enough said. Gulliman was basically the Sun Tsu of the lot. He also challenged a lot of ideals that marines held, like making it ok to retreat. His Codex documented the depth of tactical applications of marine's strength and firepower. The other primarchs tend to be too focused towards one thing or another to be called overall best tactician.

Honestly, it's really hard to evaluate since we are rarely ever given examples of brilliant tactical or strategic maneuvers.

Grey elder wrote:amount of wins go to in order
1. Horus
2.Lion
3.Russ
IIRC
So best tactician would be Horus.

The only reason Horus had more victories was because the Emperor found him before Russ and The Lion.

Leman Russ and Lying...err...I mean, Lion el Johnson were the most tactical according to the Codex Astartes.

Ultramarine hate is SOO cool guys. It's not like Robute did anything important. You know, it's perfectly ok to like the Ultramarines without being a fanboy.

It's the new way to be cool.

Formosa wrote:

Frecklesonfire wrote:

The Ultramarines

why? i dont understand ultramarine fans, they do not seem to have any redeeming qualities that i have read at. what are their top strong points? their primarch apparently steals all of Dorns honor, and is he a good tactician or does he just have large numbers, and a strong economy and planetary setup, from my understanding hes smart at politics and governments and recruitment like hes a good political head, and organizer but in warfare?

He was a great stratagist and logistical genius...


This goes to Lion, fluff states as much.

Where? I have heard it a lot, but I would like to see some proof. I mean he is my favourite primarch, but still...

Buttons, what are you asking?

What. I voted first for Perturabo, but Alpharius/ Omegon was a close second. I don't understand how Lion was a great tactician. Granted, the primarchs were all awesome at everything (except emotion/behavior) but I thought the Lion was a CC type of guy. Ya know, killing monsters and being noble.

Being a close combat guy doesn't mean a person isn't a great tactician. Sun Tzu and Miyamoto Musashi, both some of the greatest tacticians of their time were also all close combat oriented fighters.

The Lion still understood how to position his troops so they would be used best. He still understood logistics and everything else it takes to be a great tactician.

I agree with Buttons, the Lion is often said to be a tactical genius. There must be some examples. With Guilliman, we have a whole book showing how he took an extremely gakky situation and came out on top. Just based on their reputations, I'd say that there's a three-way tie between Horus, Guilliman, and the Lion. I'm not sure that Horus and Jonson have been adequately portrayed as geniuses, however.

Manchu wrote:I agree with Buttons, the Lion is often said to be a tactical genius. There must be some examples. With Guilliman, we have a whole book showing how he took an extremely gakky situation and came out on top. Just based on their reputations, I'd say that there's a three-way tie between Horus, Guilliman, and the Lion. I'm not sure that Horus and Jonson have been adequately portrayed as geniuses, however.

Yeah, the Black Library broke the 'show don't tell' rule. Horus is described as some sort of diabolical genius, but he just seems like a temperamental 15 year old in a demigod's body.

^ That. But to a certain extent, every single primarch was a great tactician. It was bred in them on purpose, and also due to the worlds they were scattered to they gained a specific area of genius, Are we talking about open warfare or sieges or what?
Even Lion might need specialists. (assumed tactician in general) From what Roadkill said, Guilliman and Lion have very close tactical mindsets, but I still prefer Alpharius/ Omegon.

Dorn. Even Horus said he was the most brilliant and best tactician he had ever seen.

I would think asking who is best in overall tactics automatically isolates the primarchs with specialities from being the answer. They are geared more or less toward certain tactics for certain situations and fall short. having anything mentioned on their tactical geniues in other areas or rather in general sacrificed to further drive the point that they are brilliant at their preferred methods.

Wolfsblood wrote:Dorn. Even Horus said he was the most brilliant and best tactician he had ever seen.

Just because he mentioned he was the best he had observed doesn't mean he said he was better than him.
Unless I'm missing a direct quote where Horus states he was outmatched or on even terms.

I think you've rolled to ma things together,

Guilliman was a master strategist, ie take this city and this one let them keep that and oh look the planets ours, and if not I'll try plans b through z

Lion was a master tactician, as in right we'll draw them in then you guys hidden over ther can sneak be hind them and detonate their armour support and we'll get the rest in a cross fire

Sorry simplistic examples I know

But Horus was almost as good as the two masters at both things

Goundry has it right. There is a solid difference between tactics and strategy. Strategy is the big picture- how to win a war- and tactics are based around the more immediate battle- how to win a firefight.

Guilliman's greatest strength has always been his logistical genius- logistics is a fancy word for strategy. His tactical prowess on the other hand has never been shown to really be anything beyond average for a Primarch, though.

I'd say Horus, personally. Hearsay states that the Lion is the best tactician, but he has zero feats to back it up. The one fight I ever saw him in ended with him fighting like an autistic tiger with Kurze.

THEN Alpharius !!! funny Angron got two votes , well rush & kill 'em all is some sort of tactic

DarthMarko wrote:THEN Alpharius !!! funny Angron got two votes , well rush & kill 'em all is some sort of tactic

Sometimes the simplest solution is the best solution.

Although Guilliman is THE tactician, I would hazard that Russ shows more brilliance. As the Emperors executioner he had refined his Astartes slaying abilities long before Roboute and co were all shocked that some of their members were contemplating killing other Space Marines.

Ronin wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:THEN Alpharius !!! funny Angron got two votes , well rush & kill 'em all is some sort of tactic

Sometimes the simplest solution is the best solution.

Sometimes - yes , not in war....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rochronos wrote:Although Guilliman is THE tactician, I would hazard that Russ shows more brilliance. As the Emperors executioner he had refined his Astartes slaying abilities long before Roboute and co were all shocked that some of their members were contemplating killing other Space Marines.

Agree

BlaxicanX wrote:Goundry has it right. There is a solid difference between tactics and strategy. Strategy is the big picture- how to win a war- and tactics are based around the more immediate battle- how to win a firefight.

Guilliman's greatest strength has always been his logistical genius- logistics is a fancy word for strategy. His tactical prowess on the other hand has never been shown to really be anything beyond average for a Primarch, though.

I'd say Horus, personally. Hearsay states that the Lion is the best tactician, but he has zero feats to back it up. The one fight I ever saw him in ended with him fighting like an autistic tiger with Kurze.

Dont forget he fought a numerically superior Sons of Horus force and won

Who's "he"?

edit- Ah. Did a google search on a hunch. I haven't read either of the Dark Angels HH novels yet.