DOOMBREAD wrote:Gulliman.

He wrote the Codex Astartes.

Enough said.

Prince_of_Crows wrote:
Guilliman: He is tactical, no doubt about it, no other primarch managed to sustain minimal damage during the heresy, get "distracted" for long enough to not realist something was going on at Terra or turn up to fight far too late in order to help but still arrive in time to wrte a book that you dictate everybody must follow despite the fact it severely weakened the space marines forever. His exploits during the great crusade were pretty basic. They just come across as the biggest, most pompous of the Primarchs, like the smug older brother who has the biggest room that your always told that you should be more like whilst every time he winds you up you get told off for shouting at him. He is tactical simply because he manages to grab fame without putting in a lot of effort.

With the exception of the Luna Wolves, no Legion conquered as many worlds, or conquered worlds as fast, or left conquered worlds in such good state during the Great Crusade, as the Ultramarines. Whenever Guilliman liberated a world, he would not move on until he had set up a self-sufficient defense system, and left advisors behind to create industry, set up trade routes with the rest of the Imperium, and form a government whose first concern would always be the well-being of the people.

Omegus wrote:

Frecklesonfire wrote:

The Ultramarines

why? i dont understand ultramarine fans, they do not seem to have any redeeming qualities that i have read at. what are their top strong points? their primarch apparently steals all of Dorns honor, and is he a good tactician or does he just have large numbers, and a strong economy and planetary setup, from my understanding hes smart at politics and governments and recruitment like hes a good political head, and organizer but in warfare?

During the Crusade, the Ultramarines had the longest record of successes, while also achieving compliance with the least amount of casualties, making them one of the largest legions by far. Their efficiency and efficacy under Guilliman was unmatched. If he had a flaw, it was that he would always take the most efficient and efficacious approach, opening up the door to being predictabile (something that has culminated into a serious problem for 40K-era Ultramarines). Horus could probably match Guilliman, but being a glory hog, he wouldn't always make the "best" decision tactically if a more bombastic approach would still achieve the objective (casualties be damned) while making him look better, so he falls a tad short. The Lion could also probably match Guilliman/Horus on a tactical level, but the Lion's whole paranoia/inability to judge a person's character would likely hamper him in the grand scheme of things.

I guess another way to distinguish them is that Guilliman and Horus are better strategist and big picture guys, while Lion is better at the nitty gritty while missing the big picture (the only real example we have is his skill in void warfare). Alpharius-Omegon may also qualify as great, if unconventional tacticians (which is why Guilliman disliked them and Horus favored them).

Rochronos wrote:Although Guilliman is THE tactician, I would hazard that Russ shows more brilliance. As the Emperors executioner he had refined his Astartes slaying abilities long before Roboute and co were all shocked that some of their members were contemplating killing other Space Marines.

I seriously doubt they had "refined" his Astartes slaying abilities. Russ and his Legion weren't specifically designed to be executioners; a lot of what the Emperor did with the Primarchs seems to have been blind experimentation. Like a quote from Kharn in a later novel states, the Wolves were picked to attack other Astartes because they were loyal hounds, who would follow their orders and go no further, and could always be called back to heel. The World Eaters could just as effectively kill other Space Marines, but there was no recalling them once they were unleashed. In Aurelian, we're told that in an alternate timeline where the Emperor decided to sanction Lorgar rather than give him a second chance, the purge of the Word Bearers is enacted by the Wolves and Night Lords working in tandem (which makes sense, Kurze was another tool of the Emperor's vengeance, and the Wolves by themselves would be far too outnumbered to handle the Bearers solo... hell, they needed a huge detachment of Custodes and Silent Sisters to barely handle the Thousand Sons).

DarthMarko wrote:

Omegus wrote:
I seriously doubt they had "refined" his Astartes slaying abilities. Russ and his Legion weren't specifically designed to be executioners; a lot of what the Emperor did with the Primarchs seems to have been blind experimentation. Like a quote from Kharn in a later novel states, the Wolves were picked to attack other Astartes because they were loyal hounds, who would follow their orders and go no further, and could always be called back to heel. The World Eaters could just as effectively kill other Space Marines, but there was no recalling them once they were unleashed. In Aurelian, we're told that in an alternate timeline where the Emperor decided to sanction Lorgar rather than give him a second chance, the purge of the Word Bearers is enacted by the Wolves and Night Lords working in tandem (which makes sense, Kurze was another tool of the Emperor's vengeance, and the Wolves by themselves would be far too outnumbered to handle the Bearers solo... hell, they needed a huge detachment of Custodes and Silent Sisters to barely handle the Thousand Sons).

You sir, know NOTHING of the Wolves, clearly you are traitor TS fanboy who is always pissing on one legion and it's primarch - so please stop,go prey to Tzeench and read some books

Pilau Rice wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:

Omegus wrote:
I seriously doubt they had "refined" his Astartes slaying abilities. Russ and his Legion weren't specifically designed to be executioners; a lot of what the Emperor did with the Primarchs seems to have been blind experimentation. Like a quote from Kharn in a later novel states, the Wolves were picked to attack other Astartes because they were loyal hounds, who would follow their orders and go no further, and could always be called back to heel. The World Eaters could just as effectively kill other Space Marines, but there was no recalling them once they were unleashed. In Aurelian, we're told that in an alternate timeline where the Emperor decided to sanction Lorgar rather than give him a second chance, the purge of the Word Bearers is enacted by the Wolves and Night Lords working in tandem (which makes sense, Kurze was another tool of the Emperor's vengeance, and the Wolves by themselves would be far too outnumbered to handle the Bearers solo... hell, they needed a huge detachment of Custodes and Silent Sisters to barely handle the Thousand Sons).

You sir, know NOTHING of the Wolves, clearly you are traitor TS fanboy who is always pissing on one legion and it's primarch - so please stop,go prey to Tzeench and read some books

Err, what Omegus has posted is pretty bang on the mark, perhaps you need to do some further reading? Without the Custodes and Sister to assist them the mission on Prospero would not have gone well for the Wolves. It didn't go very well for them on Shrike when they fell out with the Sons.

DarthMarko wrote:
Great,another traitor!!! Look bringing S of S was like bringing a bolter ( Russ didn't want to bring them and btw they didn't bring enough ), Costodians were nothing for TS (easy kill ) - and that thing on Shrike would ended with a complete flesh change and Cyclops beheaded by Russ...

Zweischneid wrote:
As for the Heresy, it's been said (Know No Fear?) that Horus knew he needed to keep Guilliman away or he would lose. Horus was prepared and confident that he could
deal with all others at the Siege of Terra. But Guilliman had to be away or he wouldn't even try. Facing Guilliman was the auto-lose in Horus opinion.

Pilau Rice wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:
Great,another traitor!!! Look bringing S of S was like bringing a bolter ( Russ didn't want to bring them and btw they didn't bring enough ), Costodians were nothing for TS (easy kill ) - and that thing on Shrike would ended with a complete flesh change and Cyclops beheaded by Russ...

Sure, that's exactly how it would have gone down

CainTheHunter wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:
As for the Heresy, it's been said (Know No Fear?) that Horus knew he needed to keep Guilliman away or he would lose. Horus was prepared and confident that he could
deal with all others at the Siege of Terra. But Guilliman had to be away or he wouldn't even try. Facing Guilliman was the auto-lose in Horus opinion.

Well, it's was mentioned before that Horus primary concern was to keep both Space Wolves AND Dark Angels away during the Siege of Terra, since combined might of both legions, as well as tactical capabilites of Russ and Lion would have seriously shifted the balance of forces there.

DarthMarko wrote:end how is ol' Cyclops now ? Still in a wheelchair threatening galaxy from his room?

DarthMarko wrote:You don't have to bother, there will always be TS fanboys (kids),who will consider Russ mere brute - but that's ok, Wolves like it that way

Pilau Rice wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:end how is ol' Cyclops now ? Still in a wheelchair threatening galaxy from his room?

Doing a lot better than Russ it would seem

DarthMarko wrote:You don't have to bother, there will always be TS fanboys (kids),who will consider Russ mere brute - but that's ok, Wolves like it that way

I'm not either a fan of the Wolves or the Thousand Sons, each Legion had their merits and flaws. But I can also read the fluff ,remain impartial, and express my opinion going by what we have in front off us and not putting forth my own biased opinion on one because they are the bestest bestest Legion because they are super dooper marines.

DarthMarko wrote:
But you are not impartial, not in a mile I never said SW were uber marines.

Pilau Rice wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:
But you are not impartial, not in a mile I never said SW were uber marines.

How have I not remained impartial, I haven't criticized the Wolves, I have just backed up Omegus, which you stated as being entirely false. You might not have said that the Wolves are the best directly but your opinion that they are is clear.

Collected Visions goes into how the Sisters of Battle were sent with the Wolves as the Emperor recognised how their talents would assist in the battle, it also goes into details as to how well the Custodes performed. If the Space Wolves had not had their assistance things would not have gone so well for them.

You gave a possibility of what might have happened on Shrike, sure, that could have happened. Alternatively the Thousand Sons could have gone all out on the Space Wolves, obliterate them and then deal with Russ with the help of Magnus. The Wolves of Fenris were in a much worse state than the Thousand Sons before the intervention of Russ and the Flesh Change.

DarthMarko wrote: and even in that book TS are wondering why did the Emperor let something so terrible to exsist - ofc they had a role,their was sniffing and cutting traitors....

Zweischneid wrote:

DarthMarko wrote: and even in that book TS are wondering why did the Emperor let something so terrible to exsist - ofc they had a role,their was sniffing and cutting traitors....

Unlikely.

A). Traitor-Marines were something unthinkable up until the Heresy.. otherwise Horus Heresy wouldn't have blindsided the galaxy as it did.

B). Space Wolves seem particularly ill-suited to this task (e.g. fighting Huron on the Wolf of Fenris).


If anything, remember that this quote from TS is from a "direct" speech of one of the characters in TS, not a statement by the "narrator".

DarthMarko wrote:

and how was Soul Hunter ?Mean to read it these days...

Zweischneid wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:

and how was Soul Hunter ?Mean to read it these days...

Soul Hunter is pretty good. Does a fantastic job of tying the Heresy Era to present-day Chaos Marines and vice versa. ADB's "layered" style writing of scenes-within-scenes works really well there (culminating in a final "battle/duel-across-the-ages", which I really liked).

The book uses a few human protagonists for perspective (similar to Abnett), but it works exceedingly well here I think (mainly to convey of all Night & Darkness theme).

Also some great "side-characters" that make up "First Claw". Arguably more interesting bunch of guys compared to the main-guy.

You can "test-read" ADB's "Night Lord writing" in the pretty awesome ]Savage Weapon short story if you like (if from a Dark Angel Main-Perspective).

Surtur wrote:Buttons, what are you asking?

Buttons wrote:

Surtur wrote:Buttons, what are you asking?

I have heard a lot of people state that Lion is the best, or at least one of the best tacticians amongst the primarchs and I am asking for a source.

Buttons wrote:
I have heard a lot of people state that Lion is the best, or at least one of the best tacticians amongst the primarchs and I am asking for a source.

LordofHats wrote:

Buttons wrote:
I have heard a lot of people state that Lion is the best, or at least one of the best tacticians amongst the primarchs and I am asking for a source.

It's in the current Dark Angel's Codex.

Durza wrote:It kind of depends on how the question is interpreted. Guilliman was a great tactician when it came to the battles, but alienating another commander just because you don't like how he chooses to fight is not a tactically sound decision. Similarly, the Lion sent some of his most loyal allies back to Caliban because one of them got kind of jealous because the Lion outshone him in almost every way. Fulgrim won a war that was meant to have taken years in less than a month, but wasn't smart enough to not listen to a creepy voice in his head telling him to do drugs and rape things.

Frecklesonfire wrote:they do not seem to have any redeeming qualities that i have read at.

Justicar_Thunderflanks wrote:People will give me funny looks for saying this, But my vote goes to Space Batman, Konrad Curze.

As far as tactics, he is too specialized to compete with Papa Smurf or Horus, and Alpharius is similar in his tactics. However, the OP's question includes overall strategy, not just tactics (kinda confused me at first, but I'm working off of the description and not the title which is tactics specific.)

Sun Tzu says on Offensive Strategy that "Generally in the best policy is to take a state intact; to ruin it is inferior to this." As Space Marines are designed as an offensive spearhead primarily (no offense Dorn, you're still awesome), their mandate is to defeat the enemy while doing as little harm to potential resources as possible. As such, he goes on to say that, "Thus, those skilled in war subdue the enemy's army without battle. They capture his cities without assaulting them and overthrow his state without protracted operations." The key word that Sun Tzu uses here is subdue; Curze and the night lords were the masters of subjugation.

Curze was possibly the only Primarch who used warfare as an option rather than a necessity (the reason I cringed when I saw Russ as one of the highest rated Primarchs). He used terror tactics to avoid open warfare and resource draining, time consuming sieges. Grand Strategy is all about acheiving your goal with as few losses as possible. Few can say they've taken a planet without firing a single shot (and I don't count World Eaters using only chainswords either ). In this respect, he was a radically advanced strategist in comparison to all the other primarchs. Even in warfare, the Night Lords would kill the enemy leadership and conduct stealth raids on vulnerable targets, keeping the fights protracted with minimal use of resources.

In short, he used minimal resources, concise attacks at important targets, and mental warfare to acheive the desired results with little to no loss of valuable ammo, fuel, captured enemy tech and infrastructure, and Astartes lives. That is what makes him the best.

. . . Borderline rant done now

Justicar_Thunderflanks wrote:People will give me funny looks for saying this, But my vote goes to Space Batman, Konrad Curze.

As far as tactics, he is too specialized to compete with Papa Smurf or Horus, and Alpharius is similar in his tactics. However, the OP's question includes overall strategy, not just tactics (kinda confused me at first, but I'm working off of the description and not the title which is tactics specific.)

Sun Tzu says on Offensive Strategy that "Generally in the best policy is to take a state intact; to ruin it is inferior to this." As Space Marines are designed as an offensive spearhead primarily (no offense Dorn, you're still awesome), their mandate is to defeat the enemy while doing as little harm to potential resources as possible. As such, he goes on to say that, "Thus, those skilled in war subdue the enemy's army without battle. They capture his cities without assaulting them and overthrow his state without protracted operations." The key word that Sun Tzu uses here is subdue; Curze and the night lords were the masters of subjugation.

Curze was possibly the only Primarch who used warfare as an option rather than a necessity (the reason I cringed when I saw Russ as one of the highest rated Primarchs). He used terror tactics to avoid open warfare and resource draining, time consuming sieges. Grand Strategy is all about acheiving your goal with as few losses as possible. Few can say they've taken a planet without firing a single shot (and I don't count World Eaters using only chainswords either ). In this respect, he was a radically advanced strategist in comparison to all the other primarchs. Even in warfare, the Night Lords would kill the enemy leadership and conduct stealth raids on vulnerable targets, keeping the fights protracted with minimal use of resources.

In short, he used minimal resources, concise attacks at important targets, and mental warfare to acheive the desired results with little to no loss of valuable ammo, fuel, captured enemy tech and infrastructure, and Astartes lives. That is what makes him the best.

. . . Borderline rant done now