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Apparently there is some debate on this issue... So as it stands should I still ask for a roll off in regards to the chariot? I personally think RAI I should be able to allocate melee attacks vs it or the rider and I believe RAW supports this.... However if my opponent does not... Should I ask for a roll off? I felt rude even asking for a roll of playing in a tournament yesterday and just allocated all attacks to Anakyr aboard the barge.... (who then passed 8 2+ invuln saves.... anarykr doesn't have an invuln to begin with... I got hosed!) (anakyr ran from that combat and then charged my boys with relic killing them thus leaving the game a draw... but he should of been dead before ever doing that!!! argh!) Should of looked over his list more/called over a TO I guess.. He just mentioned off the cuff like they had houseruled it at our FLGS that the chariot could not be targeted by melee attacks... but that seems and not RAI



so questions

#1. Does CCB make the overlords save 2+/3+ or 2+/2+? (Overlord has 3+ save and a 3+ invuln if it has a phase shifter )


#2. Does it say anywhere in the book that assaulting a chariot is any different than anything else aside "that a rider atop it counts as being in base to base and can attack"? ie. In every other instance if a model is in base to base with 2 different models he has the option to choose the target of his attacks.

It only improves armor saves per the chariot rule. Pg 82, under "Improved Save".

You could just look at the chariot rules for the answer to your second question, it's pretty clear how to assault a chariot and how to fight from one.

 Kevin949 wrote:
It only improves armor saves per the chariot rule. Pg 82, under "Improved Save".

You could just look at the chariot rules for the answer to your second question, it's pretty clear how to assault a chariot and how to fight from one.

I read the entire entry 3 times before leaving the tournament, once more when getting home, before posting this.

The entry doesn't speak on the matter in any which way that I can recall.


I could of sworn that there used to be language saying that when you strike blows against a chariot you could choose to allocate to the rider or chariot, but none such exists... and It doesn't say that you HAVE to allocate hits against the rider, just that you may? (if I remember the entry correctly. at work now)

Assaulting models that are in base/hull contact with the chariot are in base/hull contact with the chariot and the rider. The rider is considered in base contact with all models that are in base/hull contact with the chariot.

1. He gains +1 to his ARMOR save. Invuln is unchanged.

2. You can assault either rider or vehicle. Usually its best if you can to destroy that vehicle first then go for the rider.

Either the guy was innocently ignorant, my FLGS HAS houseruled it that way (which Im unsure of), or I got hustled.


The wording in the book makes it seem that the rider and the hull are both in contact with all and therefor both can be targeted..



well


(I do usually wreck the chariot ASAP... lock lord in combat.. and then kill him next round if first round of attacks didn't do it...) in this instance I should of killed lord, walked away from empty barge and assaulted another squad next turn. blah.

Ok if I recall correctly shooting you hit the ride and assulting you hit the rider.

 White Ninja wrote:
Ok if I recall correctly shooting you hit the ride and assulting you hit the rider.

Well, shooting is against the chariot. Assaulting is against either, attackers choice.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 White Ninja wrote:
Ok if I recall correctly shooting you hit the ride and assulting you hit the rider.

Well, shooting is against the chariot. Assaulting is against either, attackers choice.

What leads people to believe ONLY the rider can be targeted in assault? ( i realize not many here are saying that is the case, but in my scenario at my FLGS.. why do they think that?) Why would my opponent claim my FLGS house ruled it that way? Said something about it being an attack platform and to think of deamon chariots... to which i'm thinking.. aren't the chariot and it's inhabitants one model in that case? while in this case the chariot and the rider are 2 entirely separate units?


I really didn't want to argue... but I guess next time I will ! Was 4 points behind 4th place, so if I got the 5 VPs in the match that I felt got hosed out of, and had got to play more than 2 turns on my other 2 games I may have scored higher overall and landed in the $ but alas... I didn' t have much mech, had to move 40 boys a turn etc. With setups and opponents etc just.. Need to figure a way to speed not only myself but opponents up.

Ok your opponent screwed you over. Period.

A chariot is a vehicle and can be destroyed. The rider can be hit also and killed. The +1 to armor save is just armor not invuln and anykar does not have an invuln save.

Lungpickle wrote:
Ok your opponent screwed you over. Period.

A chariot is a vehicle and can be destroyed. The rider can be hit also and killed. The +1 to armor save is just armor not invuln and anykar does not have an invuln save.

Yeah....I have come to the conclusion I was robbed that game.. ended 1-1 instead of 6-1 (relic worth 5 VPS in FLGS tourney for whatev reason)... sigh.. I feel like it was an honest mistake on my opponents part at least.. Which to mean teaches a leasson... Even if you are trying to be a nice guy etc, make sure the other guy shows you something questionable is correct (esp if they new)... because even though they have 1.5k of beautifully painted models etc, they may not have the most experience with their army etc... and that could lead to a situation like what I encountered...


Very frustrating situation for a first tourney

Give him the benefit of the doubt.

The first tourney I went to I brought nids and had both genestealers and lictors. During my second game, against a Daemon player, I got confused between the WS6, S6, I6 of the lictor and the WS6, S4, I6 of the genestealers and won a combat I had no right winning. A couple turns later, the TO was walking around and he commented that he thought that combat would have gone differently. We told him how it went and I learned of my mistake. I ended up with a major victory as the rest of the game went really poorly for him but we both agreed to record it as a draw.

I still feel bad about that game. I spent the rest of the tourney feeling like a douche, and he spent the rest of it annoyed as hell.

Filthy Sanchez wrote:
Give him the benefit of the doubt.

The first tourney I went to I brought nids and had both genestealers and lictors. During my second game, against a Daemon player, I got confused between the WS6, S6, I6 of the lictor and the WS6, S4, I6 of the genestealers and won a combat I had no right winning. A couple turns later, the TO was walking around and he commented that he thought that combat would have gone differently. We told him how it went and I learned of my mistake. I ended up with a major victory as the rest of the game went really poorly for him but we both agreed to record it as a draw.

I still feel bad about that game. I spent the rest of the tourney feeling like a douche, and he spent the rest of it annoyed as hell.

Yeah I did give him the benefit of the doubt as he mentioned he hadn't got to play but 3-4 games with his necrons. I felt like the TO in your example... Watching my megaboss and 3 meganobs and a nob from a boys squad put 8 wounds on him.. then him fly off into the sunset and cost me the game... >.< more or less frustrating to a degree

I really hope the guy didn't feel like a d-bag after realizing his mistake (if he did) but I confess I was a bit annoyed, albeit trying not to be.

So since any models that are in base contact with the chariot are also in base contact with the rider.... Does that make it a multi-assault if a unit charges it? Does that mean the charging unit gets no bonus attack for multi-assaulting?

 BarBoBot wrote:
So since any models that are in base contact with the chariot are also in base contact with the rider.... Does that make it a multi-assault if a unit charges it? Does that mean the charging unit gets no bonus attack for multi-assaulting?

I think that by being embarked upon it, the lord has "joined the unit" in the way a librarian joins a unit of marines, and if they are charged, it would not be considered a multi-assault. However I don't know for sure, and don't think it would be that way as you can't choose 1 of the 2 models to charge as one is aboard the other. I could see where someone would make the argument that you lose charging bonuses, if you chose to allocate attacks to both the barge and lord from a singular unit... but I don't really have a good answer.

 BarBoBot wrote:
So since any models that are in base contact with the chariot are also in base contact with the rider.... Does that make it a multi-assault if a unit charges it? Does that mean the charging unit gets no bonus attack for multi-assaulting?

Technically the rider is embarked on a transport and cannot be charged. The vehicle is being charged but has rules where you can strike at the rider and vice versa, so no. You charge 1 target.

Note that same way it is always the Chariot that charges, never the rider. So rider never gets +1 attack for charging while embarked.

@Luide - I don't see why you would lose the extra attack for charging. Why would this be any different to riding a bike or jetbike into an assault?

Bikes and Jetbikes are not embarked on tranports. The bikes are charging, whereas the rider of the chariot isnt.

That and it states it in the FAQ...

Otherwise you'd benefit from furious charge and other such things.

bginer wrote:
@Luide - I don't see why you would lose the extra attack for charging. Why would this be any different to riding a bike or jetbike into an assault?

Now ask yourself why a bike and Jetbike get +1 Attack on the charge vs why an Embarked IC in a Chariot does not.

Biker Charges
Jet Biker Charges
Chariot Charges (IC) gos for a ride

@jd, Kevin989, and fragile

The only thing I found in the faq was on page 4 of the Necron faq not allowing FC on sweep attacks, and that was version 1. Nothing I could see in the BRB faq except for a bit about chariots not being able to sweep attack a zooming flyer. Can you give me a reference please? Not saying I don't trust you, but I would like to read it myself as this just doesn't seem reasonable to me.

I understand that the chariot is doing the charging, but I don't see why the OL should lose the benefit of that charge as he is on the chariot. It says in the fighting from a chariot section that he counts as being in b2b with anybody who's in b2b with the chariot when in combat, but doesn't mention the assault move in that section.

I just don't see a distinction between the bikes and chariot as everybody on the vehicles are still riding. The chariot is a new type of vehicle true, but I don't see anywhere in the assaulting with a chariot rules that prevents the OL from getting the extra attack for charging. I would have thought that GW would have specifically prohibited it if that was the case.

If I'm missing something please show me where it is. I'm really struggling to understand this.

Thanks

You can't compare a chariot to a bike. They're not even remotely similar.

bginer wrote:

@jd, Kevin989, and fragile

The only thing I found in the faq was on page 4 of the Necron faq not allowing FC on sweep attacks, and that was version 1. Nothing I could see in the BRB faq except for a bit about chariots not being able to sweep attack a zooming flyer. Can you give me a reference please? Not saying I don't trust you, but I would like to read it myself as this just doesn't seem reasonable to me.

I understand that the chariot is doing the charging, but I don't see why the OL should lose the benefit of that charge as he is on the chariot. It says in the fighting from a chariot section that he counts as being in b2b with anybody who's in b2b with the chariot when in combat, but doesn't mention the assault move in that section.

I just don't see a distinction between the bikes and chariot as everybody on the vehicles are still riding. The chariot is a new type of vehicle true, but I don't see anywhere in the assaulting with a chariot rules that prevents the OL from getting the extra attack for charging. I would have thought that GW would have specifically prohibited it if that was the case.

If I'm missing something please show me where it is. I'm really struggling to understand this.

Thanks

So first off, the difference between bikes and chariots is that bikes are infantry models and chariots are vehicles.

Secondly, the reason you don't benefit from any of the special rules of the character that take effect on charging is because the entire section on chariots is referencing the chariot assaulting, not the rider. They can't be locked in combat (unlike bikes) and follow almost all the same rules for assault as the vehicle rules, with the one exception that the rider is allowed to strike in close combat.

If you look at the "Assaulting with Chariots" rule, the very first line says "A chariot is allowed to declare a charge in the assault phase". It does not say "A chariot and it's rider". This means that a chariot without a rider could declare a charge.

bginer wrote:

@jd, Kevin989, and fragile

The only thing I found in the faq was on page 4 of the Necron faq not allowing FC on sweep attacks, and that was version 1. Nothing I could see in the BRB faq except for a bit about chariots not being able to sweep attack a zooming flyer. Can you give me a reference please? Not saying I don't trust you, but I would like to read it myself as this just doesn't seem reasonable to me.

I understand that the chariot is doing the charging, but I don't see why the OL should lose the benefit of that charge as he is on the chariot. It says in the fighting from a chariot section that he counts as being in b2b with anybody who's in b2b with the chariot when in combat, but doesn't mention the assault move in that section.

I just don't see a distinction between the bikes and chariot as everybody on the vehicles are still riding. The chariot is a new type of vehicle true, but I don't see anywhere in the assaulting with a chariot rules that prevents the OL from getting the extra attack for charging. I would have thought that GW would have specifically prohibited it if that was the case.

If I'm missing something please show me where it is. I'm really struggling to understand this.

Thanks

If I had to compare a chariot to something out of C:SM I would say it's kinda like an awesome Rhino.

Pg 82 of the BRB covers Chariots and (Assaulting with Chariots), than to (Fighting from a chariot)

Bikes are listed on pg 45 of the BRB, also describes the assault.

The main problem you're having is that you're not realizing the CCB is a Transport Vehicle. The OL sits inside of it, and whacks people.

rigeld2 wrote:
You can't compare a chariot to a bike. They're not even remotely similar.

Please tell me why in the instance of what I'm asking? (I.E. why doesn't the OL on a CCB get the benifit of the extra attack when assaulting)

I understand the difference between bikes and transport vehicles, but where does it say I can't get the extra assault attack for the OL on the chariot? There is no instance that I can find in the transport, or chariot section rules respectively that govern this instance.

Thanks.

You get the bonus attack for charging. A rider in a Chariot is not actually charging, the Chariot is.

 Kevin949 wrote:

bginer wrote:

@jd, Kevin989, and fragile

The only thing I found in the faq was on page 4 of the Necron faq not allowing FC on sweep attacks, and that was version 1. Nothing I could see in the BRB faq except for a bit about chariots not being able to sweep attack a zooming flyer. Can you give me a reference please? Not saying I don't trust you, but I would like to read it myself as this just doesn't seem reasonable to me.

I understand that the chariot is doing the charging, but I don't see why the OL should lose the benefit of that charge as he is on the chariot. It says in the fighting from a chariot section that he counts as being in b2b with anybody who's in b2b with the chariot when in combat, but doesn't mention the assault move in that section.

I just don't see a distinction between the bikes and chariot as everybody on the vehicles are still riding. The chariot is a new type of vehicle true, but I don't see anywhere in the assaulting with a chariot rules that prevents the OL from getting the extra attack for charging. I would have thought that GW would have specifically prohibited it if that was the case.

If I'm missing something please show me where it is. I'm really struggling to understand this.

Thanks

So first off, the difference between bikes and chariots is that bikes are infantry models and chariots are vehicles.

Secondly, the reason you don't benefit from any of the special rules of the character that take effect on charging is because the entire section on chariots is referencing the chariot assaulting, not the rider. They can't be locked in combat (unlike bikes) and follow almost all the same rules for assault as the vehicle rules, with the one exception that the rider is allowed to strike in close combat.

If you look at the "Assaulting with Chariots" rule, the very first line says "A chariot is allowed to declare a charge in the assault phase". It does not say "A chariot and it's rider". This means that a chariot without a rider could declare a charge.

Thank you. That clarifies some of the issues, but still leaves some things open to interpretation in my opinion.

I've been drinking so I'm going to think on this and get back to you when I'm sober.

Thank you again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

bginer wrote:

@jd, Kevin989, and fragile

The only thing I found in the faq was on page 4 of the Necron faq not allowing FC on sweep attacks, and that was version 1. Nothing I could see in the BRB faq except for a bit about chariots not being able to sweep attack a zooming flyer. Can you give me a reference please? Not saying I don't trust you, but I would like to read it myself as this just doesn't seem reasonable to me.

I understand that the chariot is doing the charging, but I don't see why the OL should lose the benefit of that charge as he is on the chariot. It says in the fighting from a chariot section that he counts as being in b2b with anybody who's in b2b with the chariot when in combat, but doesn't mention the assault move in that section.

I just don't see a distinction between the bikes and chariot as everybody on the vehicles are still riding. The chariot is a new type of vehicle true, but I don't see anywhere in the assaulting with a chariot rules that prevents the OL from getting the extra attack for charging. I would have thought that GW would have specifically prohibited it if that was the case.

If I'm missing something please show me where it is. I'm really struggling to understand this.

Thanks

If I had to compare a chariot to something out of C:SM I would say it's kinda like an awesome Rhino.

Pg 82 of the BRB covers Chariots and (Assaulting with Chariots), than to (Fighting from a chariot)

Bikes are listed on pg 45 of the BRB, also describes the assault.

The main problem you're having is that you're not realizing the CCB is a Transport Vehicle. The OL sits inside of it, and whacks people.

I realize completely that the CCB is a transport vehicle. What I'm not seeing is a reason to prohibit the OL from hitting out from it when assaulting. There is nothing I can see that stops the extra attack.

I will think on this more. Had a few.

Thank you for the reply though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:
You get the bonus attack for charging. A rider in a Chariot is not actually charging, the Chariot is.

I agree, but he is within the device that is making the charge, so why shouldn't he benefit from the charge?

As I posted before, the section on combat posits that the OL is in b2b when fighting. Why not in the charge move? Nothing I can see prohibits it.

Your thoughts?

Going to bed. Drunk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OK, as God is my witness, I have no idea how I managed to link the previous replies together as one post.

They were supposed to be separate. Sorry.

If you are the next to reply after a post of yours it will amend to the prior post.

He's inside of a charging vehicle, he is not charging hence no bonus. Pros and Cons

No Overwatch against him
No charge bonus

bginer wrote:
@Luide - I don't see why you would lose the extra attack for charging. Why would this be any different to riding a bike or jetbike into an assault?

As pretty much everyone else has pointed out already, Chariot is a vehicle, Bikes and Jetbikes are not vehicles but unit types, exactly as Infantry and Jump Infantry are. So reason why it is different is because they follow competely different rules. Exactly same way I could ask "Why can't I shoot the rider of the Chariot when I can shoot model riding a bike or jetbike?"

And like I said, reason why passenger of the Chariot never gets any bonuses for Charging is because passenger is never charging. To charge, unit needs to declare a charge. You only get +1 Attack if you charged this turn (page 24) and passenger of Chariot has not declared a charge, therefore passenger has not charged. This means no +1 Attacks.
It is exactly same reason why unit being charged by a Chariot cannot fire Overwatch against the passenger, which it could do if the passenger had declared a charge.

And the reasons why your opponent can choose whether to target Chariot or its passenger are found on page 28, "Directing Attacks" paragraph.