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What I mean by the title is in a three way war between starcraft's zerg, halo's flood and the tyranids (assuming that the flood already has a gravemind, and the zerg has an overmind bent to the destruction of the others as well as they all have equal resources at first)
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD
SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE
MILK FOR THE CORNFLAKES Even though I play necrons
Well i've never played Starcraft so i know exactly dick about the Zerg. I've played Halo a grand time of once and only know a little about The Flood.
So in my knowledgeable and completely unbiased opinion im going to have to say that the Tyranids would wipe the others off the face of what ever planet they meet on. Gribbly death.
Conversely, I've played starcraft but not halo. In this case, I'd also go for tyranid.
The zerg mind is a mind. The tyranid mind is a massive neural network made up of all members of the race. The tyranid system is more robust, like the British air defense system in WWII.
Hivemind. As is, no known physical presence. Cleans planets of biomass leaving only the fresh scent of clean. Better space capabilities than zerg and the flood who have none. Rapid evolution to adapt to the enemy it's facing meaning they could be immune to the flood after one encounter and zerg do not adapt as fast as nids. The Ultralisk would look like a puppy next to some of the nid's larger forms especially the biotitans.
Not many people seem to get this, but Warhammer conducts it's wars far more brutal and depraved than most universes dare to. Fighting the Imperium of Man would be a nightmare scenario for most fictional societies. They have vast brute force tech and a willingness to sacrifice everything to win even for a day. Who else could take on orks on a day to day basis? Simply put, the scope, scale and focus of 40k puts it on a different level than military actions in fictional universes.
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
RAGE
Be sure to use logic! Avoid fallacies whenever possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Ultralisk is nothing special at the zerg forces however, there are much meaner (and unbuildable due to game balance) zerg out there. brutalisk for starter, and there are bigger and meaner who dwarfs even the biggest tyranids (probably not as effective for size tough...)
The flood stand no chance against either one, the main question on who will win from zerg to tyrnids stands on how the collective minds react to each other, after all the zerg might be able to "infect" tyranids and by that convert them to be a part of the zerg-if it can be done, the tyrnid might simply override the zerg overmind though as the remote controller, making the zerg a part of the tyrnids.
Also note that it depends on the state of the zerg, because if they got the queen of blades-they have something on their side on warhammer psyker can ever hope to come close to, she changes the situation by alot.
As far I am aware the two races are similar enough for them to just mess each other up a bit and when they consumed enough of each other the minds of both will be joint and they will become one FAR stronger race, as they will have the both the tyranid ability to quickly shape biomass, and the massive number of genetic paths available to the zerg.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
I always thought that the zerg adapted faster (at least in some ways), have you ever seen a corrupter turn into a broodord, ( I just realized that the zerg broodlord would own the tyranid broodlord)
And the zerg can fly in space (levitations and overlords and stuff)
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD
SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE
MILK FOR THE CORNFLAKES Even though I play necrons
Idk nids largest model (hive ships) can get to be even larger than imperial battleships (9-10km). They dont even compare to the size of the ships that perform the final phase of stripping a planet. But really the nids would probably just overide the hiveminds control, its already been done a half dozen times in starcrafts history.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.
BoomWolf wrote: Also note that it depends on the state of the zerg, because if they got the queen of blades-they have something on their side on warhammer psyker can ever hope to come close to, she changes the situation by alot.
The Swarmlord.
Not only is it a massively powerful psyker, it dramatically alters the tactical abilities all local Tyranid forces by taking direct control of them, and is also massively powerful in close combat and one of its uses is hunting down extremely powerful local military leaders. Surrounded by a brood of Tyrant Guard, it would simply hunt Kerrigan down. With its psychically infused bone sabres, she wouldn't put up much of a fight.
This is a flaw in your postulate. Tyranids have unlimited material advantage as part of their overall state of being. You can't have Tyranids and then say they don't have a resource advantage. That would be like saying Space Marines, but naked and unarmed.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
Having played all the games these are from, I'd have to agree and go with the Tyranid. The sheer diversity of their forces, coupled with their extreme speed in adaptation to new threats, further augmented by their ability to instantly utilize biomass to spawn more soldiers... it all adds up to an extremely unbeatable foe. There is a reason they are (in the fluff at least) the ultimate enemy of every living thing in the 40k universe.
So the Zerg have one psychically gifted individual.... the Tyranid have a Shadow in the Warp that would cut off that psyker. Meanwhile, Zoanthropes, Hive Tyrants, and Tervagons are all able to operate as normal.
I'd like to see how the zerg would handle a few hundred Carnifex being unleashed upon them, accompanying a few Bio Titans.... with the Tyranid getting stronger each kill they make.
Harriticus wrote: In coolness factor however, Overmind by light years....My children.
Serve the Hive...
Feel the Groove....
Anyway, so who says Kerrigan's psychic abilites are warp spawned and even affected by the Shadow in the Warp?
Not that I don't agree the Tyranids will win - they will. 40K has few equals in sheer over-the-topness, and Starcraft ain't one of them, although Protoss are pretty badass.
I think the flood is being a little left out here tho. With the masses of units being thrown against them theyre bound to infect a large portion (assuming that a nid or zurg would meet the "sentient" requirement. It also begs to be asked wither they could infect a sentient ship? They did pretty good in halo without stellar transport, what would they be able to do with access to a splinter fleet?
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.
AndrewChristlieb wrote: I think the flood is being a little left out here tho. With the masses of units being thrown against them theyre bound to infect a large portion (assuming that a nid or zurg would meet the "sentient" requirement. It also begs to be asked wither they could infect a sentient ship? They did pretty good in halo without stellar transport, what would they be able to do with access to a splinter fleet?
The nids would simply evolve the ability to resist the parisitic control of the Flood.
Comparing Zerg and Tyranid is akin to comparing oranges that came from the same tree. Blizzard originally wanted to make a WH40KRTS. When they got a "No.", they decided Imperials = Terran, Eldar = Protoss and Tyranid = Zerg and came up with their own history in rougly the same setting (dystopic future away from earth). Yes, both Zerg and Tyranid have changed over the years but they are still pretty much the same.
That said, I don't think the Flood would be a major player in this. They/it can indeed infect other life forms and spread fairly quickly but I've never heard of anything being infected by the flood which was smaller than human and non-sentient. AKA, The impressive tactical genius's of the Tyranid Hive-mind and Zerg Overmind/Cerabrates would quickly realize this and begin sending waves of Rippers/Broodlings. To my knowledge, the Flood also lacks flying capabilities. This would make dealing with them an easy task for Gargoyles and Mutalisks.
I'm not even sure if the Flood could infect the bulk of either Tyranid or Zerg. Both have completely mindless drones on the bottom with sentience slowly building at you move up the ranks. I'm sure it could infect Overminds/Cerabrates and possibly Overlords/Queens along with Hive Tyrants, Trygon Primes, some Genestealers and other such "ranks" but the flood would first have to work its way through zerglings, broodlings, rippers and hormagaunts; all of these are completely feral when separated from their controlling body and thus aren't really sentient.
As for the Zerg vs. Tyranid, it would be one hell of a good crump and I have no idea who would come out on top. I lean towards Tyranid due to them being Extra-Galactic and their numbers (as of yet) being unknown. Just the fact that they are drifting in from outside our galaxy means either they ate everything in theirs and left or some even more bad ass race (Space El-Tau-Cron?) evicted them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/20 22:04:16
BoomWolf wrote: Ultralisk is nothing special at the zerg forces however, there are much meaner (and unbuildable due to game balance) zerg out there. brutalisk for starter, and there are bigger and meaner who dwarfs even the biggest tyranids (probably not as effective for size tough...)
The flood stand no chance against either one, the main question on who will win from zerg to tyrnids stands on how the collective minds react to each other, after all the zerg might be able to "infect" tyranids and by that convert them to be a part of the zerg-if it can be done, the tyrnid might simply override the zerg overmind though as the remote controller, making the zerg a part of the tyrnids.
Also note that it depends on the state of the zerg, because if they got the queen of blades-they have something on their side on warhammer psyker can ever hope to come close to, she changes the situation by alot.
As far I am aware the two races are similar enough for them to just mess each other up a bit and when they consumed enough of each other the minds of both will be joint and they will become one FAR stronger race, as they will have the both the tyranid ability to quickly shape biomass, and the massive number of genetic paths available to the zerg.
The Tyranids vastly, vastly out number the zerg. The Tyranids have the biomass of dozens of galaxies to bloat their numbers, the Zerg don't even control one. Additionally, The Zerg's space warfare capacity is laughable at best, they're going to get wiped out in that theatre and the Tyranids are going to own the stars, and once one faction establishes space supremacy, it's typically only a matter of time before the other crumbles. Additionally, the Tyranids will have the upperhand in the air, even scourges will be outnumbered a thousand to one by skyslashers and gargoyles. Harridans are also much bigger and tougher than any of the atmospheric flight capable Zerg.
Zerglings and Hormagaunts are evenly matched, but Hormagaunts can have flesh melting poison and come in larger numbers, additionally they come in ranged varieties and can be crapped out by enormous, ridiculously hard to kill beasts like Tervigons, and Hormagaunts can reproduce on their own; win for the Tyranids.
Warriors are far more durable and far more versatile than Hydralisks and would butcher them at either range or melee. One more point for the Tyranids.
The Ultralisk has no weapon save for it's Kaiser blade, a Carnifex can come in decked with massive scything talons, enormous adamantium crushing pincers, Tusks bigger than your arm, a tooth filled maw attatched to a jaw with more biting power than a Tyrannosaurus rex, the ability to spit out green bio-plasma ladened death, can shoot spine bombs or machine gun like barrages of lethal spines, can carry a huge variety of ranged weapons, is capable of immensely fast regeneration, can be poisonous, and is generally just a billion times more versatile and is better built for fighting other creatures of it's size, win for the Tyranids.
Banelings are more capable of direction than Spore mines, but the Tyranids seem to be able to make Spore mines more easily, draw.
Nydus worms can't really attack, they are no competition for Trygons and mawlocs, win for the Tyranids.
Roaches don't really have a direct counterpart in the Tyranid hive, but I'm betting Genestealers would cut them open as easily as they cut open Terminators. Win for the Tyranids.
The Zerg queen is much, much smaller than the Tyranid Dominatrix and far, far less powerful. A dominatrix is in fact, big enough to probably just swallow a Queen whole and is so big that it's spawn broodling power is definitely not killing it or even penetrating it's carapace or warp shield, and a Dominatrix can probably level an entire zerg attack force with a single barrage of bio-plasma and warp blasts. While Queens are more common that Dominatrixes, you'd need far more queens than the Zerg Swarm commits to any battlefield to deal with a Dominatrix. Win for the Tyranids. As for Queens vs Hive Tyrants, if the queen tries to shoot the hive tyrant with it's spawn broodling power a Tyrant Guard is going to block the shot, and a Hive Tyrant can one shot a queen with it's bonesword or an implant attack, additionally it can carry a huge number of weapons and can, like carnifexes; regenerate at obscene speeds or develop extremely thick armour. The fact that Hive Tyrants can also use mind bulletry only further swings the arguement in their favour.
Defilers/Infestors cannot hope to match Zoanthropes for sheer firepower, but Zoanthropes are considerably less support oriented than Defilers/Infestors, that being said, the Hive Mind has many breeds of Zoanthropes who focus on specific psychic powers. Draw.
Overlords are primarily control creatures with transportation abilities, they're also big and slow; they're going to be fodder. That being said, the Tyranids don't really use transports outside of a few seen in the collectible card game and chapter approved material. But of course, given that most Tyranids are dropped onto a battlefield from space directly in your face, that doesn't really matter.
The closest equivalent to rippers, skyslashers, and sea-rippers I could find are Broodlings and Locusts, none of which are ever mentioned as forming carpets so thick you can't see the ground or blotting out the sun when they're in the water or in the air. Tyranids win here.
Scourges and Gargoyles play different roles, one's a large flier killer, the other is essentially the cannon fodder infantry on wings. That being said, Gargoyles are deployed in far greater numbers and are an actual threat to ground based enemies. I'd give this to the Tyranids.
Harpies are distinctly more versatile than Guardians and Brood lords and seem to be a good deal faster. Addittionally, a Harpy is more than capable of cutting other fliers to ribbons, their Zerg counterparts can't do much but stare at airbounre opponents. Tyranids win out here.
Shrikes are smaller than mutalisks, but tend to carry more weapons and come in greater numbers, I'd say they're more fragile though, I'd call this a draw.
A leviathan isn't anywhere near as big or as well armed as a hive ship, and the Zerg are chumps in space battles. Tyranids in a curb stomp.
Devourers vs Harridans? Are you joking? A Harridan could bite a Devourer in half.
Swarm hosts have a very different mechanism of providing artillery than bio-vores and Dactilys' do. One that is distinctly more able to be shot down en route. Tyranids win out here.
Infested Terrans do generally carry better equipment (so long as they're made from Marines) than genestealer hybrids and many can blow themselves up. But given the differences in population between Warhammer and Starcraft, Genestealer cults tend to come in much greater numbers. But of course, the "blow up" ability of Terrans is meant to counter being swarmed. But that doesn't exactly stop them from being shot to pieces. The weirder versions of infested terrans don't possess the purestrain Genestealer's pound for pound killing power or numbers. Draw.
Changelings are completely worthless against the Tyranids who would detect their presence in an instant as they wouldn't be linked to the Hive Mind. Lictors on the other hand are decidedly more useful against the Zerg, though overlords/seers are a problem, I don't see the gas bags surviving getting punctured by flesh hooks.
Parasites are similarly worthelss against the Tyranids, the hive mind would detect any such infected units and purge them immediately. The Tyranids don't have a counterpart to this because they don't need it. A Lictor can give the Hive Mind all it needs to know about the enemy position by eating a few brains. There are the cortex leeches, but they outright mind control their targets rather than just hop along for a mind ride.
Zerg Creep and their static defenses are going to end up being floor food. Tyranids don't really need static bases, and when they do they seem to prefer simply making the area around these bases (typically digestion pools, on planet spawning chambers, capillary towers, and other things the Tyranids use to prepare a planet for consumption) too poisonous for non Tyranids to survive in and using things like Spore mine launchers, spore mine patrols, Hive Guard, and their ability to drop any reinforcements they need on site from space to defend their points, which seems to work better for the Tyranids. I'd say the Tyranids win out here.
Brutalisk you say? I wouldn't say a Brutalisk is any bigger than a heirodule, much less a Heirophant. And of course, there is a bigger breed of Tyranid. We call it the Hydraphant.
Yeah, no way in hell a Brutalisk is anywhere near as big as that. And the thing is, Tyranid bio-titans simply have so many more options. They can carry enormous guns while still being able to tear things apart in melee, they can vomit out torrents of bioplasma, the bigger ones have paralyzing lash whips, they can regenerate at obscene speeds, the larger ones can have nearly impenetrable warp shields and exude extremely toxic gas. The Tyranids win here by a landslide.
The Zerg have no counterpart to the Hive Guard and need to get close to break open more heavily armoured vehicles. Tyranids win here.
The Zerg don't have a counterpart for Raveners, Hydralisks may look similar but they are mainly moderately fast ranged units, Raveners are blindingly fast in your face short ranged killers. Tyranids win by default.
The Zerg have no direct counterpart for Tyrannofexes, which can carry huge amounts of firepower on an extremely tough body. Again, the Tyranids win here by default.
The closest thing the Zerg have to the Venomthrope is the Defiler/Infestor, but unlike Venomthropes, Defilers/Infestors are helpless in melee. Tyranids win out here.
The Zerg have nothing to match the huge varieties of Bio-titans the Tyranids have, the Tyranids once again hold the upper hand.
The Zerg generally have problems with being set on fire, the Pyrovore is much better at setting things on fire in the fluff than it is on the tabletop. Tyranids again win here.
The Zerg lack a direct counterpart to the Tyrant guard, the closest thing I'd say would be the roach, but a bonesword equipped Tyrant guard is going to make mincemeat out of a Roach.
The Zerg have no answer to Tyranid Krakens, further contributing to the fact that the Tyranids will slaughter the Zerg in space.
The Flood are non-factors for reasons already stated, the Zerg are going to be a minor speed bump.
This fight is not close at all, it is a curbstomp. For every zerg there are likely a billion Tyranids, the Zerg's style of war and spreading is precisely the kind of thing that the Tyranids are very good at crushing. For each world the Zerg lose, they'll lose a major reproduction centre and the Tyranid's numbers will bloat that much more, and the Zerg are in no way going to even challenge the Tyranid's space supremacy. The Zerg don't have any traits the Tyranids don't already possess or particularly need, not even the reincarnation ability, the Tyranids can already do that with their Hive Tyrants, depending on how fast their organic warpspace drive is, that may be the only thing the Zerg have that the Tyranids would find of any use at all. The Zerg generally fight poorly when outnumbered and they're pretty much always going to be massively outnumbered by the Tyranids.
The overmind's/kerrigan's ability to continually reincarnate themselves will avail them nothing after the Tyranids completely destroy the Zerg swarm by stripping every world they have to the bone. And if Kerrigan proves to be a problem, they'll do what they did with Skarfang, draw her out; cut her off from support, then butcher and eat her. Maybe she can take on a hive tyrant or two, but how about five? Twelve? A hundred? I don't think so. Additionally, it's been demonstrated in starcraft canon that disrupting the Zerg's hive mind is quite easy, the disruptors worked if I remember, by drowning out the Cerebrate's signals with their own. Assuming compatability between Starcraft Psionics and Warhammer Psykery, the shadow in the warp is going to seriously muck up that link the zerg share.
The Zerg are going to lose every battle they fight and lose them hard, their universe simply isn't on the playing field Warhammer is. They're formadible opponents to factions that even the Tau empire would stand head over shoulders above them in size, indsutrial capacity, and military might. Put the Zerg in the Warhammer universe and they'd be a moderately annoying nuisance to the main factions at best, or a pest that would be crushed within the cosmic blink of an eye at worst. Put the Tyranids in the Starcraft Galaxy and quite simply all of the major players would be dead within the century. The only limiting factor is going to be the speed of the Tyranid advance, and if the Zerg's FTL capacity is in any way better, they'll take that into their genepool after the very first battle and soon all of their hive fleets will be as fast if not faster than the Zerg were.
The Overmind/Kerrigan would have no time to concoct daring and imaginative schemes in the face of the wave of annihiliation that would be sweeping over their forces, not that anything they could think up would stop the vastly superior numbers and capacity for battle that the Tyranids have. In the face of the entire Tyranid species, the Zerg are going to give about as much resistance as a wall made of match sticks would give a tidal wave. They'll put up a fight, but the Tyranids aren't going to know that as they simply drown them in flesh and chitin. There just isn't any way for the faction that is generally regarded as the ultimate threat to the warhammer galaxy and the most likely cause for the cessation of all life in the Warhammer milky way to be even inconvenienced by a species that plays in a universe with a far lower general power level.
The Imperium of Man, which has far greater numbers than all the factions in Starcraft combined, believes that the only way for it to even have the slimmest chance of escaping destruction by the Tyranids is to effectively mobilize every last person capable of fighting, converting every manufacturing facility solely for military needs, and then directing their entire military just to fight the Tyranids. Conversely, the forces the Imperium had in the various conflicts throughout Dawn of War 1 through to Retribution, including the Exterminatus fleet, would likely be able to purge the entire Korpulu sector of life. No one would be able to even come close to mustering up enough ships to prevent the Imperial fleets from blasting every planet in the sector into a molten wasteland. Protoss orbital glassing and Terran nuclear bombardment is nothing compared to even basic forms of Imperial exterminatus, where even single shots from a Battleship's lance weapons can sear entire continents and reduce them into lava and ash. There isn't even anything in Starcraft that would compare to a Virus bomb or a Cyclonic torpedo. And guess what? Some forms of Tyranids have survived Exterminatus. I don't think any of the Zerg would be able to survive something like the Exterminatus of Typhon primaris.
For example, Korhal IV is still marginally habitable after the Terrans pounded it with one thousand nuclear missiles and large portions of it have even been transformed into vast cities. Cyrene remains molten and lifeless (save for Kyras' forces which set up shop) after at least a century past the day Exterminatus was brought to it, I don't think you could set up any large human populations that aren't powered by warp magic on Cyrene. The fact that bombardments on the scale of Korhal IV are still enough to fry a Zerg presence while many Tyranids can survive outright Exterminatus further points to the disparity in power between the two universes.
Tell me, could any Zerg realistically survive that? Certain Tyranid life forms have withstood that sort of event, though notably most of them decidedly did not. And really, short of Death watch style tricks like the Blood Ravens and Uriel ventris pulled (and the Tyranid codex notes that uriel's trick no longer works as the Tyranids have adapted to it), there is no way to defeat the Tyranids on the ground if you have not dealt with their space fleet first. And as I said before, the Zerg don't have any chance of defeating the Tyranids in space. All the zerg will be doing by fighting back will be giving the Tyranids a better picture of how they fight
In the words of the Daleks "This is not war, this is pest control."
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
The Tyranids have the biomass of dozens of galaxies to bloat their numbers, the Zerg don't even control one.
Though the Tyranid do have numbers over the zerg, to claim they have already devoured dozens of galaxies is merely speculation as there is no fluff to support this.
Additionally, The Zerg's space warfare capacity is laughable at best,
Actually, zerg space warfare capacity is ample as all zerg strains can survive in the vacuum of space and all of their fliers are capable of space flight. That said you can expect for serious boarding actions.
Additionally, the Tyranids will have the upperhand in the air. . . Harridans are also much bigger and tougher than any of the atmospheric flight capable Zerg.
Again, no. Refer to this picture of the actual unit sizes as stated in fluff. Please note for proper size comparison (based on fluff) that Terran Battlecruisers are roughly the size of Tau Mantas which have a 3' wingspan on the board.
Please not that by comparing sizes, the Harridan (which is properly reperented by its model) would then be about the size of a Broodlord, maybe smaller. This makes Guardians, Infectors and Queens quite large compared to the Tyranid "Monstrous" flier. Gargoyles, being much smaller than Harridans, would be flies compared to most of the air-born Zerg. In videos, even Mutalisks are depicted as being larger than Siege Tanks (Comparable to Russes) and thus on par with Harridans.
Zerglings and Hormagaunts are evenly matched, but Hormagaunts can have flesh melting poison and come in larger numbers, additionally they come in ranged varieties and can be crapped out by enormous, ridiculously hard to kill beasts like Tervigons, and Hormagaunts can reproduce on their own; win for the Tyranids.
All Zerg strains are extremely resistant to toxin and chemicals making this acid largely moot. Zerg also come in devastating numbers. Every video about zerglings resembles the Klendathu invasion in Starship Troopers. The ranged variant of zerg, hydralisk is a bit more potent than the chemical spraying Termigaunts. "The hydralisk has 4,000 muscles, compared to a terran's 629, and a portion of these may be used to launch the spines with enough force to penetrate 2 cm. of neosteel at a range of over 300 meters" . . . "volleys of armor-piercing spines 30mm in length in 2503; by 2504 they were significantly larger." (taken from the Starcraft wiki.)
Warriors are far more durable and far more versatile than Hydralisks and would butcher them at either range or melee. One more point for the Tyranids.
To my knowledge, Warriors lack the burrowing ability of the Hydralisk which allows it to "swim" through rock. Hyralisk need not engage in melee as they can simply burrow. As Warrior ranged weapons utilize corrosives to do damage, the Zerg, again, are resistant.
The Ultralisk has no weapon save for it's Kaiser blade, a Carnifex can come in decked with massive scything talons, enormous adamantium crushing pincers, Tusks bigger than your arm, a tooth filled maw attatched to a jaw with more biting power than a Tyrannosaurus rex, the ability to spit out green bio-plasma ladened death, can shoot spine bombs or machine gun like barrages of lethal spines, can carry a huge variety of ranged weapons, is capable of immensely fast regeneration, can be poisonous, and is generally just a billion times more versatile and is better built for fighting other creatures of it's size, win for the Tyranids.
Actually, While the Carnifex does have ranged weapons that actually pose a threat (barbed stranglers and bio-plasma) they are simply never present in the same numbers as Ultralisks (which are on par with melee oriented Carnifex). Also their Kaiser Blades are sharpened down to monomolecular edges making them extremely lethal. As Carnifex seem to never be present in numbers greater than 12 they would be hard pressed to cope when 24-36 Ultralisks stomping their way over.
Nydus worms can't really attack, they are no competition for Trygons and mawlocs, win for the Tyranids.
Correct on the nydus worm. Ultralisks can burrow, however. With this, and the Ultralisks being in greater numbers, they would be able to tear these down albeit with some losses.
Roaches don't really have a direct counterpart in the Tyranid hive, but I'm betting Genestealers would cut them open as easily as they cut open Terminators. Win for the Tyranids.
Infestors also lack a counterpart with the Tyranid. Their ability to regurgitate infested Marines and temporarily mind control units via a parasite all from the cover of being underground would prove fatal.
The Zerg queen is much, much smaller than the Tyranid Dominatrix and far, far less powerful. . .
Indeed. However, with the zerg having more monstrous fliers than Tyranid, they would simply mop up the foot slogger.
Zerg also don't suffer from psychic backlash when something a minor as a hydralisk dies.
Meh, bored of building walls.
>TLDR (or finish ) : Zerg Fliers are much larger than you think. Zerg can compete in space battles. Ultralisks come in mass numbers unlike Tyranid monstrous creatures. Zerg can open warp rifts. Zerg also assimilate other species into their brood (Ultralisks used to be barnacles). Comparing two species from two different universes on a unit-by-unit basis is a practice in futility as the "next" person in line can simply list ways to defeat the others tactics.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/09/22 14:16:48
Though the Tyranid do have numbers over the zerg, to claim they have already devoured dozens of galaxies is merely speculation as there is no fluff to support this.
they already ate one galaxy . beside the post retcone necron , they are the only race in whole w40k that actualy won .
the zerg didnt win in their galaxy . all the fleets imperials saw to this day[and struggle to deal with] are just scout fleets.
nid arrival made the necron high king come back and he would be back only to fight a race that rivals the old ones and old ones did rule the galaxy once , even if they did lose to necron in the end .
the only thing that comes close to the nid problem is mass enslavers invasion .
Oh this is rich, someone who thinks that Starcraft is even remotely on Warhammer's playing field. Starcraft is a very weak sci-fi setting, 40k sits near the top of the "One galaxy only" settings.
Ultralisks aren't more common than Carnifexes. The Hive Mind simply spawns what it needs the most at the moment. If it needs a lot of big bugs, it spawns a lot of big bugs, but in most occasions drowning the others in bodies is the most efficient usage of resources. And the mass of giant bugs is typically at the back to be thrown at you once you expend all your ammunition killing some of the small ones.
As for Zerg "air" superiority. That's not going to happen, Tyranid Fliers come in numbers large enough to block out the sun over country sized areas, even in the Zerg invasion of Auir they didn't come close to those numbers, the Mutalisks will run out of glaive wurms long before the Tyranids run out of gargoyles, who will proceed to rip apart and eat the mutalisks. The zerg will run into the problem the imperials frequently do, there are simply more Tyranids than you have bullets.
As for Carnifex vs Ultralisk, A carnifex has the advantage of arms, it can simply grab at the Ultralisk's blades to stop them from moving before obliterating it's face with bioplasma. Ultralisks are built to attack smaller things, their bodies are very badly designed for tackling foes of similar sizes, while a Carnifex's body structure would make it a champ in this area. Additionally, the Carnifex could simply blast the Ultralisk's brains out with a heavy venom cannon. Or they could you know, use their wolverine like regeneration which is significantly faster than the painfully slow regeneration Zerg units have?
On zerglings vs hormagaunts. I can still see the ground in most Zergling assaults, most of the time when a tyranid assault is described, it notes that you can't see the ground at all due to the sheer mass of bodies. Hormies outnumber Zerglings, period.
As for space warfare, those fliers aren't going to be doing squat to a Hive Ship or a Kraken. They're made of far sturdier stuff than the flimsy "capital" ships of Starcraft which can be blown away by basic fighter weapons. They're also far more well armed than the ridiculously undergunned ships in starcraft. I wouldn't be wrong in saying an Imperial ship has more weaponry on it than a terran Battlecruiser of the same size by an order of magnitude. And these weapons are far more powerful. A terran ship needs to use nuclear warheads to engage in serious orbital bombardment, an Imperial ship can sear away entire cities and continents with it's normal batteries. Tyranid Ships can duke it out with said Imperial ships, so no the zerg are not going to even annoy the Tyranids in space. They're undergunned, flimsy, and don't have the capitol ships to compete.
If a zerg fleet tried to attack an Imperial fleet, the Imperial fleet would fire one Nova cannon exactly once and wipe out the entire zerg fleet in a single shot as an area of space the size of a small planet gets consumed in a colossal explosion, The Tyranids have ships that can tank Nova cannon shots, there is nothing to suggest that Zerg leviathans can, especially not when the capital ships of Starcraft are such tiny little things. The zerg will flat out lose in space, there is no question about that. From your picture, a Leviathan is maybe two kilometers at best. Your average hive ship is over fifteen kilometers and there are billions of them.
It is flat out stated in the 5th ed rule book that the Tyranids have left behind the dead husks of a dozen galaxies behind them. By the simple numbers game the Tyranids win any day every day. Not to mention that the Tyranids can simply shut down the Zerg's incredulously easily disrupted excuse for a synaptic web by showing up as their psychic chatter drowns out the Zerg Overmind. Every time the Tyranids show up, the Zerg overmind and his cerebrates will lose control as the Shadow in the Warp cuts them off, turning them into simple animals that the Tyranids promptly slaughter.
Ultralisks are smaller, cannot move while they burrow, and are nowhere near as tough as a Trygon. An Ultralisk does not even have the reach to get to a Trygon before it impales it through it's skull with a scything talon or it's scythed tail. And if the Hive Mind wanted to duke it out monster to monster, they'd use their pools of biomass to spawn more Trygons than the Zerg can hope to handle, they just don't do this because it's not as efficient as their typical strategy of drowning an enemy in hormagaunts and gargoyles an mopping up the survivors with bigger beasts.
Anyone anyone who seriously claims that Infestors can mind control a Tyranid under the synaptic web is being silly. The Overmind is not overpowering the Hive mind ever. It was outpowered by Tassadar for cripes sakes, that's incredibly weak compared to a psychic presence that drives even the most powerful psykers crazy by just being in the same solar system. Additionally, there aren't even a trillion humans in the Korpulu sector, the Zerg will run out of infested Terrans long before the Tyranids run out of bodies to throw. Additionally, the Tyranids could just you know, go and devour all the human worlds in the Korpulu sector because the Terran military is laughable compared to the Imperial one?
Ask yourself this, what would happen if the Zerg tried to take on the Imperium? The answer would be "They wouldn't ever get to touch down on a planet because Imperial escort ships are bigger and better armed than Terran Battlecruisers, not to mention the small country sized battleships that are bigger than anything in starcraft by an order of magnitude." Then ask "what would happen if the Tyranids attacked the Terrans?" The answer would be "The Terran dominion would be destroyed within a year as they don't have the manpower or firepower or technology to handle the Tyranids."
On the subject of Bio-titans, there is really no answer the zerg have for this. A brutalisk could be stepped on by a Hydraphant, which posseses enough secondary weapons on it to send any pitiful flier the Zerg can throw at it that haven't already been slaughtered packing and is covered in a nigh impervious warp shield and ridiculously thick armour, that regenerates at an obscene speed. It's biocannons could lay waste to entire armies of Zerg it one salvo. Anything that tried to get close would simply get paralyzed by a lash whip and straight out die, or get stepped on. And if it wanted to, it could kill thousands of the puny zerg by just walking through them, as they can't spawn anything that would stop it's momentum, resulting in every little beastie the overmind tries to put in it's path being sent flying like bowling pins.
Imperial titans are noted as having firepower measured in the kilotons to the megatons. Ultralisks are destroyed by low end kiloton level nukes instantly. Bio-titans are very much capable of tanking large numbers of hits from these weapons, which as said before; are considered to be enormously powerful in starcraft. If you dropped a starcraft Nuke on a Mutalisk, it would splatter, conversely, if you dropped one on a Harridan, which is every bit as tough as the Heirodule it's based on, it would emerge from the fireball quite pissed off. If a mutalisk attacked a baneblade, it's weapons, which take time to go through a siege tank (which does not have the firepower or armour to match a leman russ), it would take an eternity to get through if it wasn't already blown away by the Baneblade's weapons. When Harridans attack Baneblades, the Banebaldes are either blasted open by Bio-cannons which can compete with said Kiloton level Imperial Titan guns or be ripped open in melee.
If a brutalisk tried to charge a Warhound titan, it would last long enough for the Turbo-laser destructor to fire at it and turn it into a black stain on the ground as starcraft nukes do massive damage to it. When a heirophant charges a Warhound, they tend to rip open the Warhound after tanking their hits and trading shots with them on more than even terms. The zerg can't claim that. The best they could do is throw some guardians at it which would vaguely annoy the titan's shielding before they get blown away by the vulcan mega-bolter. Ultralisks? The Turbo-laser incinerates them with extreme prejudice, in one shot. Zerglings? turbo-laser and megabolter. Queen? Boom turbo-laser shot. Kerrigan? Gets stepped on and squashed into a paste.
In Conclusion, Starcraft is weak compared to Warhammer. It's ships are tiny and undergunned. It doesn't have a fraction of the manpower. It's biggest ship guns would be less powerful than an Imperator Titan's weapons. Starcraft has no answer to Titan equivalents period (who could destroy vast columns of zerg by simply moving through them and sending them flying like bowling pins.) .
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
This is a flaw in your postulate. Tyranids have unlimited material advantage as part of their overall state of being. You can't have Tyranids and then say they don't have a resource advantage. That would be like saying Space Marines, but naked and unarmed.
I meant they started off with equal reserves of biomass
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD
SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE
MILK FOR THE CORNFLAKES Even though I play necrons
The Tyranids have the biomass of dozens of galaxies to bloat their numbers, the Zerg don't even control one.
Though the Tyranid do have numbers over the zerg, to claim they have already devoured dozens of galaxies is merely speculation as there is no fluff to support this.
Dozens is wrong. A dozen is correct. The 5th edition rulebook fluff section flat out stated it, and with the usual rules of 40k fluff, it hasn't been refuted, so still stands. They Tyranids have destroyed 12 galaxies before ours.
This is a flaw in your postulate. Tyranids have unlimited material advantage as part of their overall state of being. You can't have Tyranids and then say they don't have a resource advantage. That would be like saying Space Marines, but naked and unarmed.
I meant they started off with equal reserves of biomass
Which is a flawed part of the comparison still. You're basically taking the key advantage of the Tyranids and handing it to the Zerg for free.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/23 11:40:52
This is a flaw in your postulate. Tyranids have unlimited material advantage as part of their overall state of being. You can't have Tyranids and then say they don't have a resource advantage. That would be like saying Space Marines, but naked and unarmed.
I meant they started off with equal reserves of biomass
Which is a flawed part of the comparison still. You're basically taking the key advantage of the Tyranids and handing it to the Zerg for free.
Dont the zerg need minerals and vespane gas? So just giving them biomass will result in one hatchery and a few larva with an overloard or two
Oh this is rich, someone who thinks that Starcraft is even remotely on Warhammer's playing field. Starcraft is a very weak sci-fi setting, 40k sits near the top of the "One galaxy only" settings.
Ultralisks aren't more common than Carnifexes. The Hive Mind simply spawns what it needs the most at the moment. If it needs a lot of big bugs, it spawns a lot of big bugs, but in most occasions drowning the others in bodies is the most efficient usage of resources. And the mass of giant bugs is typically at the back to be thrown at you once you expend all your ammunition killing some of the small ones.
As for Zerg "air" superiority. That's not going to happen, Tyranid Fliers come in numbers large enough to block out the sun over country sized areas, even in the Zerg invasion of Auir they didn't come close to those numbers, the Mutalisks will run out of glaive wurms long before the Tyranids run out of gargoyles, who will proceed to rip apart and eat the mutalisks. The zerg will run into the problem the imperials frequently do, there are simply more Tyranids than you have bullets.
As for Carnifex vs Ultralisk, A carnifex has the advantage of arms, it can simply grab at the Ultralisk's blades to stop them from moving before obliterating it's face with bioplasma. Ultralisks are built to attack smaller things, their bodies are very badly designed for tackling foes of similar sizes, while a Carnifex's body structure would make it a champ in this area. Additionally, the Carnifex could simply blast the Ultralisk's brains out with a heavy venom cannon. Or they could you know, use their wolverine like regeneration which is significantly faster than the painfully slow regeneration Zerg units have?
On zerglings vs hormagaunts. I can still see the ground in most Zergling assaults, most of the time when a tyranid assault is described, it notes that you can't see the ground at all due to the sheer mass of bodies. Hormies outnumber Zerglings, period.
As for space warfare, those fliers aren't going to be doing squat to a Hive Ship or a Kraken. They're made of far sturdier stuff than the flimsy "capital" ships of Starcraft which can be blown away by basic fighter weapons. They're also far more well armed than the ridiculously undergunned ships in starcraft. I wouldn't be wrong in saying an Imperial ship has more weaponry on it than a terran Battlecruiser of the same size by an order of magnitude. And these weapons are far more powerful. A terran ship needs to use nuclear warheads to engage in serious orbital bombardment, an Imperial ship can sear away entire cities and continents with it's normal batteries. Tyranid Ships can duke it out with said Imperial ships, so no the zerg are not going to even annoy the Tyranids in space. They're undergunned, flimsy, and don't have the capitol ships to compete.
If a zerg fleet tried to attack an Imperial fleet, the Imperial fleet would fire one Nova cannon exactly once and wipe out the entire zerg fleet in a single shot as an area of space the size of a small planet gets consumed in a colossal explosion, The Tyranids have ships that can tank Nova cannon shots, there is nothing to suggest that Zerg leviathans can, especially not when the capital ships of Starcraft are such tiny little things. The zerg will flat out lose in space, there is no question about that. From your picture, a Leviathan is maybe two kilometers at best. Your average hive ship is over fifteen kilometers and there are billions of them.
It is flat out stated in the 5th ed rule book that the Tyranids have left behind the dead husks of a dozen galaxies behind them. By the simple numbers game the Tyranids win any day every day. Not to mention that the Tyranids can simply shut down the Zerg's incredulously easily disrupted excuse for a synaptic web by showing up as their psychic chatter drowns out the Zerg Overmind. Every time the Tyranids show up, the Zerg overmind and his cerebrates will lose control as the Shadow in the Warp cuts them off, turning them into simple animals that the Tyranids promptly slaughter.
Ultralisks are smaller, cannot move while they burrow, and are nowhere near as tough as a Trygon. An Ultralisk does not even have the reach to get to a Trygon before it impales it through it's skull with a scything talon or it's scythed tail. And if the Hive Mind wanted to duke it out monster to monster, they'd use their pools of biomass to spawn more Trygons than the Zerg can hope to handle, they just don't do this because it's not as efficient as their typical strategy of drowning an enemy in hormagaunts and gargoyles an mopping up the survivors with bigger beasts.
Anyone anyone who seriously claims that Infestors can mind control a Tyranid under the synaptic web is being silly. The Overmind is not overpowering the Hive mind ever. It was outpowered by Tassadar for cripes sakes, that's incredibly weak compared to a psychic presence that drives even the most powerful psykers crazy by just being in the same solar system. Additionally, there aren't even a trillion humans in the Korpulu sector, the Zerg will run out of infested Terrans long before the Tyranids run out of bodies to throw. Additionally, the Tyranids could just you know, go and devour all the human worlds in the Korpulu sector because the Terran military is laughable compared to the Imperial one?
Ask yourself this, what would happen if the Zerg tried to take on the Imperium? The answer would be "They wouldn't ever get to touch down on a planet because Imperial escort ships are bigger and better armed than Terran Battlecruisers, not to mention the small country sized battleships that are bigger than anything in starcraft by an order of magnitude." Then ask "what would happen if the Tyranids attacked the Terrans?" The answer would be "The Terran dominion would be destroyed within a year as they don't have the manpower or firepower or technology to handle the Tyranids."
On the subject of Bio-titans, there is really no answer the zerg have for this. A brutalisk could be stepped on by a Hydraphant, which posseses enough secondary weapons on it to send any pitiful flier the Zerg can throw at it that haven't already been slaughtered packing and is covered in a nigh impervious warp shield and ridiculously thick armour, that regenerates at an obscene speed. It's biocannons could lay waste to entire armies of Zerg it one salvo. Anything that tried to get close would simply get paralyzed by a lash whip and straight out die, or get stepped on. And if it wanted to, it could kill thousands of the puny zerg by just walking through them, as they can't spawn anything that would stop it's momentum, resulting in every little beastie the overmind tries to put in it's path being sent flying like bowling pins.
Imperial titans are noted as having firepower measured in the kilotons to the megatons. Ultralisks are destroyed by low end kiloton level nukes instantly. Bio-titans are very much capable of tanking large numbers of hits from these weapons, which as said before; are considered to be enormously powerful in starcraft. If you dropped a starcraft Nuke on a Mutalisk, it would splatter, conversely, if you dropped one on a Harridan, which is every bit as tough as the Heirodule it's based on, it would emerge from the fireball quite pissed off. If a mutalisk attacked a baneblade, it's weapons, which take time to go through a siege tank (which does not have the firepower or armour to match a leman russ), it would take an eternity to get through if it wasn't already blown away by the Baneblade's weapons. When Harridans attack Baneblades, the Banebaldes are either blasted open by Bio-cannons which can compete with said Kiloton level Imperial Titan guns or be ripped open in melee.
If a brutalisk tried to charge a Warhound titan, it would last long enough for the Turbo-laser destructor to fire at it and turn it into a black stain on the ground as starcraft nukes do massive damage to it. When a heirophant charges a Warhound, they tend to rip open the Warhound after tanking their hits and trading shots with them on more than even terms. The zerg can't claim that. The best they could do is throw some guardians at it which would vaguely annoy the titan's shielding before they get blown away by the vulcan mega-bolter. Ultralisks? The Turbo-laser incinerates them with extreme prejudice, in one shot. Zerglings? turbo-laser and megabolter. Queen? Boom turbo-laser shot. Kerrigan? Gets stepped on and squashed into a paste.
In Conclusion, Starcraft is weak compared to Warhammer. It's ships are tiny and undergunned. It doesn't have a fraction of the manpower. It's biggest ship guns would be less powerful than an Imperator Titan's weapons. Starcraft has no answer to Titan equivalents period (who could destroy vast columns of zerg by simply moving through them and sending them flying like bowling pins.) .
Have you ever played Starcraft 2?
Because really some of those points you made are really flimsy.
Zerg don't have answer to bio-titans, meet the Omegalisk, Kraken and Hive ships, corrupters, and a Ultralisk is much bigger and stronger than a carnifex. Additionally did you read the top post when I said equal resources? Its like saying oh its one guardsmen fighting one thousand, no this is one thousand to one thousand. Its quit obvious that Tyranids would win if they had thousands more units. As for Tassadar killing the Overmind, even though I am a huge Protoss fan, picture this, your an unarmed general. Suddenly someone points a sword at you and all your troops are fighting someone else. The Hive mind would do no better, and one more thing you forgot about balance. Meaning that obviously a Battlecriuser wouldn't get taken down by marine fire but Blizzard had to make that possible so that the unit wasn't super-powered as that would wreck the game. On another note whats this about the Overmind overpowering the Hive mind? Thats probably not how neural parasite works, it would most likely work by bypassing the targets neurological system and transmitting its own signals as then the creature would be powerless.
For random fun even though the Zerg don't have it, the Tyranids would be doomed if the brought in a Fractalisk. ( a creature with six Ultralisks on its back, that throw Jim Raynors that explode to release multiple Novas with detonate into nuclear explosions, I saw it on a video on YouTube and was most likely created by that guy who made the video).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/24 07:21:43
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD
SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE
MILK FOR THE CORNFLAKES Even though I play necrons
Coolyo294 wrote: The nids would simply evolve the ability to resist the parisitic control of the Flood.
I don't think so. That's too much handwavium and is just the same as saying "Oh, well nids will just evolve to be bullet-proof and plasma-proof and melta-proof and be immune to everything and instantly win".
Personally, I think the fact that the flood simply infects things rather than trying to fight them means the zerg and nids are boned. It'd be like pitting the US Marines against a smallpox outbreak.
"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?"
now someone go youtube the end of DoW2... where you can see the size of a hive ship. Here, I'll help ya out... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsHHeZk275s I'll wait for your return, specifically watch the video from the :35 second mark...
...Back? Okay, that thing is MASSIVE. Note, the hive ship is in the background. Also note it's still longer than the Imperial vessels firing at it. This includes a Battle Barge and several battleships.
The zerg, and really nothing in starcraft, has shown anything remotely close to 40k's scale of war. Now I'm willing to concede that the average troops are about on even footing: zerglings and hydralisks are a pretty even match for gaunts and warriors, carnifexes and ultralisks would be on par... etc. But the Tyranids have the advantage simply because everything they kill can be turned into more nids, while the zerg do not nearly have that kind of recycling ability.
On a final note: this really is the case of an orange vs... a slightly different orange!
Coolyo294 wrote: The nids would simply evolve the ability to resist the parisitic control of the Flood.
I don't think so. That's too much handwavium and is just the same as saying "Oh, well nids will just evolve to be bullet-proof and plasma-proof and melta-proof and be immune to everything and instantly win".
Personally, I think the fact that the flood simply infects things rather than trying to fight them means the zerg and nids are boned. It'd be like pitting the US Marines against a smallpox outbreak.
You're right that it's a bit handwavey. But there is fluff evidence of them doing something when they didn't want to reabsorb biomass - Ymgarl Genestealers.
The Flood would infect some Tyranids, and the Tyranids would avoid them. At the end, they'd consume the planet, then move on without them, just like they do with Ymgarls.
If a sufficient portion of the ground forces were infected, they'd just leave the planet. No sense risking contamination.
That said, biological infections don't work repeatedly on Tyranids. Whenever a biological agent is developed to fight them, it works once, they they evolve a resistance.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/24 09:53:44
They're basically the same core race but at different scales with one having a bunch of grimdark added. Comparing the two is going to result in exactly what we see here, that is a whole lot of fanboyism.
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
~1660
4000+
Thousand Sons 4000+
) : Zerg Fliers are much larger than you think. Zerg can compete in space battles. Ultralisks come in mass numbers unlike Tyranid monstrous creatures. Zerg can open warp rifts. Zerg also assimilate other species into their brood (Ultralisks used to be barnacles). Comparing two species from two different universes on a unit-by-unit basis is a practice in futility as the "next" person in line can simply list ways to defeat the others tactics.
5000