Why do Space Marines even exist?

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**Psienesis**

BrotherOfBone wrote:
I still think Space Marines are useless. Imperial Guard can do anything Space Marines can do better than Space Marines, given an appropriate timescale.

That's the problem and, also, the point of the Space Marines. The IG can take *years* to get where they are needed. The Space Marines can be there *now*.

**Psienesis**

BrotherOfBone wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
BrotherOfBone wrote:
I still think Space Marines are useless. Imperial Guard can do anything Space Marines can do better than Space Marines, given an appropriate timescale.

That's the problem and, also, the point of the Space Marines. The IG can take *years* to get where they are needed. The Space Marines can be there *now*.

So what if the Space Marines can do it now? Time isn't an important thing to the Imperium. Also, aren't most Space Marines constantly engaged in wars? They would also take time to traverse systems to get to where they needed to be.

You have an erroneous concept of how vital time is to the Imperium.

When a Forge World that is supplying needed munitions to a Crusade Fleet comes under another threat, it is *absolutely* vital that said threat is dealt with as quickly as possible, for example.

And while it might take SM weeks to get from one world to the next, weeks are much, much better than the years it can take to assemble an IN fleet to transport 500 Regiments of Guardsmen from whatever hub-world they gather the ground forces at before loading them on starships to ferry them somewhere else. The SM possess their own Fleet resources.

**Psienesis**

And a small contingency of Space Marines will be enough to bring a force capable of assaulting a Forge World to its knees? I think not.

Exhibit A: Space Marine

**Psienesis**

... and if the IN gets blown out of the sky above a world, all those IG already on the ground get to die there, because they have no means of inter-stellar travel.

Space Marines do. That's what I mean by "rapid response force". When a Chapter "gets the call", it has all the resources it needs, on hand, to respond to the threat. It has the troops, the armor, the weapons, the support personnel, the tanks... everything needed to wage war, and wage war *now* is on hand with a Space Marine Chapter.

Not so with the IG. Rare is it that a bunch of Regiments capable of performing an offensive action across a broad range of fronts (infantry, armor, artillery, etc) are sitting in one place with ready Naval transports immediately on hand. It can take the DM *months*, if not years, to get all the pieces in place to initiate the effort.

**Psienesis**

Ogiwan wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Ogiwan wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:

It does not really matter which Astartes unit is nearby - they are normally able respond to any emergency swiftly and in their own vessel.

Yeah, but the problem is if they would be willing to respond. Space Marines fight for their glory, and the glory of the Emperor (Emprah!) They are independent of the chain of command, and choose where they want to fight, not where the Imperium of Man needs them to fight.

Because many Chapters seek glory in the Emperors name by avoiding battle.

I think I'm detecting sarcasm, but I'm not sure.

My point being that a Space Marine chapter if given the choice between defending a strategically unimportant Shrine World, and a Forge World would go defend the Shrine World, for the whole "Glory of the Emprah!" thing, rather than defending the world that, ya know, supplies munitions to the subsector.

Would depend on the Chapter but, also, a Shrine World is never "unimportant". Those are places that, for whatever reasons, are considered sacred and holy to the Ecclesiarchy... you know, the system of faith and belief in the divinity of the God-Emperor that holds Humanity together.

But, no, a Space Marine Chapter would not be tasked to defend a Shrine World that was not in danger over a Forge World that was. That's simply not how that works (and, also, the Sisters of Battle defend Shrine Worlds. It's what they do.)

**Psienesis**

Some do. At last count, some 15 "canon" Chapters are listed as having a belief in the God-Emperor as a divine being.

The Fire Hawks are one, prior to becoming the LotD, having been one of the first to the fight during the Age of Apostasy, in support of Sebastian Thor (and did, in fact, get awarded a Heresy-era Battle Barge by him, iirc, as Vandire had destroyed their homeworld). (IA v9, C:UM 2E, WH40K Comp, WD 99, C:Assassins 3E)

The Adulators were mentioned in a Chapter Approved article, of which it is said (according to Lexicanum) "The chapter is steeped in the ways of the Ecclesiarchy and are on close terms with their holy orders". (Chapter Approved 2001, Blood of Asaheim(BL) )

The Angels Revenant were said to be "stern supporters of the Imperial Creed". (Chapter Approved 2001, IA v12)

The White Consuls also worship the Emperor as a god, which is noted for being unusual for the Astartes. (WH40K BRB 5E, C:UM, C: EoT, DW: Rites of Battle, C: SM 6E ebook)

The Doom Eagles are "notoriously pious". (DW: Honour the Chapter, Legends of the Space Marines anthology, several BL novels/stories)

The Fire Angels (a UM Successor) are zealously dedicated to the Creed. Of them, it is said, "they do not revere their ancestral primarch (Roboute Guilliman) as most chapters do, believing this to be a form of idolatry". (IA v9)

The Red Scorpions, who developed the Helios-pattern Land Raider, are seriously in the Emp-worshipping camp. (IA v4, v6, v7, v9, WD 101, WD 105)

And then there are the Storm Wardens, from FFG's Deathwatch RPG. Not a GW Chapter, obviously, but one more for the pile.

One can make arguments for the Angels Resplendent/Angels Penitent, the Brazen Skulls, the Celebrants, the Crimson Fists, the Templars of Blood, and the Novamarines, though these Chapters are not outright said to worship the God-Emperor (but elements to what lore there is about them suggests such an arrangement)

**Psienesis**

Shields should not be able to stop bullets. I have never had a satisfactory reason why they should.

A power-generated barrier of hard light deflects solid projectiles and directed-energy weapons equally well.

*Or* a power-generated barrier, commonly referred to as a "Void Shield", instantly teleports incoming matter and energy directly into the Warp.

**Psienesis**

Teleporting the object makes more sense than "energy barrier". Space Magic is not a good reason. Its a lazy reason. Thats all.

Welcome to Warhammer 40K, it's all Space Magic and lazy reasons.

**Psienesis**

Bullets penetrate a lot of things. They also bounce around a lot. Contrary to video game physics a bullet can bounce around multiple people and fragment doing damage to those around the target. Depends on many things.

Not really. Most bullets tend to shatter when striking a solid object like a brick wall. They might abrade someone standing very close to the point of impact, but this is not a serious injury. Now, if the surface struck is very thin, like drywall, then the bullet will (in most cases) penetrate right through it and then hit anyone standing in the line of fire on the other side, and can then cause serious injury or kill, but that's a pretty specific set of circumstances. Also depends on the round itself. A pistol round, and most rifle rounds, are too small to have enough mass to shatter into lethal shards when they hit something solid. The 20mm round fired by an autocannon is a different story entirely.

Bullet-deflection and injuries caused by said deflections, especially to a victim who was not the intended target, are exceptionally rare. Also depends on the caliber and type of round being fired, and what they are fired by.

Also, bullets don't penetrate much that is designed to be resistant to bullets. An aluminum or fibre-glass car door is not such an object and, so, yes, bullets tend to punch right through them (they are used as cover in the hope that the shot will strike obliquely, thus deflecting or losing velocity passing through the door, to reduce lethality). Against a few millimeters of steel, brick, stone, packed earth (18" will stop all known small arms rounds forever), and other armoring materials, bullets don't do so hot. In fact, a bullet-proof jacket may stop the bullet itself from entering your body completely... but it might not stop the transfer of kinetic energy to your body, which can cause serious injury or death.

**Psienesis**

Swastakowey wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Bullets penetrate a lot of things. They also bounce around a lot. Contrary to video game physics a bullet can bounce around multiple people and fragment doing damage to those around the target. Depends on many things.

Not really. Most bullets tend to shatter when striking a solid object like a brick wall. They might abrade someone standing very close to the point of impact, but this is not a serious injury. Now, if the surface struck is very thin, like drywall, then the bullet will (in most cases) penetrate right through it and then hit anyone standing in the line of fire on the other side, and can then cause serious injury or kill, but that's a pretty specific set of circumstances. Also depends on the round itself. A pistol round, and most rifle rounds, are too small to have enough mass to shatter into lethal shards when they hit something solid. The 20mm round fired by an autocannon is a different story entirely.

Bullet-deflection and injuries caused by said deflections, especially to a victim who was not the intended target, are exceptionally rare. Also depends on the caliber and type of round being fired, and what they are fired by.

Also, bullets don't penetrate much that is designed to be resistant to bullets. An aluminum or fibre-glass car door is not such an object and, so, yes, bullets tend to punch right through them (they are used as cover in the hope that the shot will strike obliquely, thus deflecting or losing velocity passing through the door, to reduce lethality). Against a few millimeters of steel, brick, stone, packed earth (18" will stop all known small arms rounds forever), and other armoring materials, bullets don't do so hot. In fact, a bullet-proof jacket may stop the bullet itself from entering your body completely... but it might not stop the transfer of kinetic energy to your body, which can cause serious injury or death.

Really, have you read the report of the shooting in tasmania. Its a good example of how deadly bullets are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_(Australia)

As I said it depends on a lot of things.

I heard the housing in middle eastern countries and walls over there are great at stopping bullets because of the materials. But it depends on many things.

Some bullets shatter on impact, but yes I fired a 22 at a car door to show someone how bullets work and it went right through. Hiding behind it would be worse as the bullet would change direction and enter awkwardly. It would also bring fragments causing more damage.

Bullets are crazy.

Ehm that article isn't proving what you're suggesting it does...

Almost all of the shooting victims were killed by close-range fire from an assault-class rifle, while some victims were shot multiple times.

Those who were struck by bullet fragments survived their injuries. These fragments were from the bullets exiting the bodies of those who had been the intended targets (who were slain). Most of the people he killed were victims of close-range head shots from an AR-15 semi-automatic assault rifle. Most of the victims were killed with a single shot, while some were killed due to the round passing through the first target and exiting cleanly, then killing the second victim. This is a known issue with the early models of the AR-15 and M-16 both, which is why later models would include the "tumble" effect, which greatly increased lethality while reducing bullet pass-through.

All this article really proves is that a person armed with military hardware, sufficient ammunition, and both the desire and the will to kill a large number of unarmed civilians is extremely capable of doing so when they are trapped in a building with him. Of course bullets are very lethal, they're *designed* to be! An assault rifle isn't designed to wing you, it's intended to kill you freakin' stone dead quickly and efficiently.

**Psienesis**

Bullets make horrible exit holes, if a bullet goes into you and goes through you're a dead man, if a fragment goes into you and goes through you (not that it really would) it'd be a far smaller hole, and you'd have more of a chance of survival.

Not always. In fact, in the early days of the M16, the round would frequently enter-and-exit so quickly that it wouldn't deform (part of the problem with a copper-jacketed slug). This would lead to US servicemen reporting that Viet Cong and NVA soldiers shot by the M16 did not realize they'd been shot, sometimes for several minutes, due to combat stress and adrenaline.

This lead to the "tumble effect" being incorporated into the ballistic profile of later M16s, which greatly increased the lethality of the weapon.

**Psienesis**

... getting OT here, but it's actually a violation of the Geneva Conventions to design a weapon that is simply crippling, or that would, by design, leave crippling injuries (one reason they ban incendiary weapons).

The tactical application of wounding shots is correct, as you described...

... but that's not how the weapons are designed.

**Psienesis**

Ehm... as much as our history books paint the American Revolution being won by the "guerrilla tactics" of the colonists, the truth is it was an exceedingly unpopular war, and we were getting our asses kicked until Lafeyette showed up to give us a hand, and French pressure on England in Europe forced a recall of British troops from the colonies to defend the homefront.

**Psienesis**

The worlds of the Imperium do not pay a tax to the Administratum... they pay a tithe.

What's the difference? Taxes are paid with the expectation of something in return. Tithes? Tithes are paid with no reasonable expectation of getting something back.

You pay taxes to your government, you tithe to your church.

**Psienesis**

They aren't even close to equal in lore. The SoB power armor has been retconned to not offer as much protection, and the inquisitor's never has.

Citation needed.

**Psienesis**

Sherlock Obiwan Clouseau wore a power-armored bodyglove under his coat in RT.

Remember: Let the Inquisitor win.

**Psienesis**

FFG's publications treat Sisters fairly badly and make them Space-Witches, so should be largely discounted from any discussion of the faction.

**Psienesis**

I can provide you several Codex quotes that indicate Lexicanum is wrong.

**Psienesis**

I will when I get home and can provide you with the page numbers, I don't walk around with my Codices in hand.

**Psienesis**

Not always, and not always accurately. There's been more than a couple articles where the sourced pages don't state what the article claims they do.

Lexi is, at least, far, far better than the 40K Wiki is in this regard.

**Psienesis**

It should be noted that the above-mentioned Lexicanum quote is not attributed to a source, it's just a statement in the article. This is where the "citation needed" tag would best apply.

Also, from that very same Lexicanum article:

Lexicanum wrote:Though Sororitas Power Armour provides the same level of protection as suits worn by the Space Marines, the lack of a Black Carapace means the Battle Sister cannot fully interface with the armour and so lacks the same strength enhancement and other advanced life-support features found in Astartes power armour.[3] Still, Sororitas Power Armour does improve the user's strength and allows them to better handle heavy weapons more easily.[5]

Emphasis mine, and that is a quote from Codex: Witch-Hunters. I believe it is repeated in Codex: Daemon-Hunters as a side comment, but can't recall exactly.

**Psienesis**

Well, he does wear Terminator Armor, so that may account for some of it.

**Psienesis**

He's also a Minotaur. That Chapter might be specifically bred/genegineered for above-average size.

**Psienesis**

jakejackjake wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The only place it's ever been "equal" is on the tabletop

No. In the Witch Hunter codex, it is explicitly stated as providing the same level of protection.
Note that jakejackjake was speaking specifically about protection.

1.) The life support systems offer protection as well. So while a SoB may be able to take an equal amount of shells to her unexposed areas or armored areas, which as a side note they tend to have less of their body armored so again protected less, they are protected less against every single thing besides blunt force.

2.) this is the background section where we discuss fluff and not armor saves.

A marine is worth more than any other imperial soldier besides custodes which are just better versions of the same thing.

Sisters' PA is equally protective as a Space Marine's PA, in GW's own words, as presented in Codex: Witch-Hunters and other publications. What it lacks is the full neural interaction between the human body and the armor that the Black Carapace provides, which also offers further strength-enhancing bonuses. The Sisters lack these and some of the specialized sub-systems of the armor... but it stops bullets just as well, it offers full environmental sealing as well, and allows them to operate in a vacuum.

**Psienesis**

The ultimate point being, I think, is that the argument against the Space Marines suggests that there are too few of them, and at too great a cost, to be effective in defending something the size of the Imperium.

In reality or, rather, if we were to apply real-world logistics to the question, this is undeniably true. There are too few Space Marines spread far too thinly across the galaxy to accomplish anything of overall worth or note. Nothing the Space Marines do in this scenario cannot be accomplished by the Imperial Guard and/or the Imperial Navy, and those two organizations can accomplish more than the Space Marines can.

However, 40K doesn't run on real-world logistics. The Space Marines are effective because we are told they are effective by the studio, and that is where it ends.

**Psienesis**

You do know that FFG turns Sisters into Space Witches and Space Marines into "Movie Marines", where any 5 Space Marines, armed with the standard bolter, can shoot a tank, or any Monstrous Creature, or horde of enemies, apart inside of five rounds without losing a Wound, right?

**Psienesis**

The protective qualities in FFG's games change between one game and the next, and the specific pattern of PA in question. Black Crusade PA is the same AP as Deathwatch PA, but has different options, and most of its sub-systems don't work (because all CSM PA is broken somehow, and CSM don't have any means to fix it, of course...).

Bolters do various damage from one game to the next, too, and gain or lose various Weapon Qualities, depending on which book you're reading.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

A human assassin does not do a better job than a Space Marine Scout. Lol.

The Vindicare Temple would like a word.

**Psienesis**

Scouts are likely to be more-experienced in combat than the vast majority of Guardsmen, to be fair.

**Psienesis**

For that kind of operation, there are either specialist Chapters that do that sort of thing, or other Imperial organizations that can perform the role and then provide intel to the Space Marines (Tanith First-And-Only, Vindicare, various DCA, etc.).

**Psienesis**

The artillery also has to get to the battlefield in the first place before it can be deployed to shell those trenches.

It can take the IG *years* to respond to a threat, where the Space Marines can respond within hours or days.