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Spetulhu wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Bullets make horrible exit holes, if a bullet goes into you and goes through you're a dead man, if a fragment goes into you and goes through you (not that it really would) it'd be a far smaller hole, and you'd have more of a chance of survival.

Modern military small-caliber bullets are meant to wound, not kill outright (though a high spine hit, head hit or huge bleeding is usually exit). Why, you might ask? Because a wounded man needs help (bandages, medicine, a hospital) while a dead man can be used as an extra sandbag. A wounded man afraid to die saps morale far worse with his screaming than a silent dead guy ever can. And it takes two healthy men to get the one wounded man out.

If a guy with a bullet wound (or several) makes it to a proper hospital he's got something like a 90% chance to live. Not life without problems, perhaps, but life anyway. People can be killed by the smallest thing but we're also very resilient if it didn't kill immediately.

That's not how weapons are designed to fit, that's what landmines are for. They're meant to wound an army to the point of retreat, bullets are meant to kill people. Not many people survive gunshot wounds, there's a reason for that.

They aren't even close to equal in lore. The SoB power armor has been retconned to not offer as much protection, and the inquisitor's never has.

Citation needed.

I already asked for it. I guess we are not getting anything.

As far as table top casualties, not because a model was removed from play, I never saw that as actually "killing" the model but simply the target was rendered useless in the battle and removed as a casualty. Do some of them die? Of course but not all, there are fluff examples to support this as well. Looking at models removed in this way is how named characters stick around after the battle for you to use them in the next one.

If Mordrak is taken down in a game I am playing, I don't see that as Mordrak dying but as Mordrak being incapacitated.

The only time this explanation doesn't work is if a unit is completely vaporized or sucked into the warp but just in terms of units getting wounded off the board, not all die and so that they can be healed and fight another day.

 Psienesis wrote:

They aren't even close to equal in lore. The SoB power armor has been retconned to not offer as much protection, and the inquisitor's never has.

Citation needed.

I don't even think it was "retconned". The only place it's ever been "equal" is on the tabletop, but that's because the tabletop uses margins of 16.7%, and there's no way to have a quantifiable difference between a 3+ and a different 3+. Though he's definitely wrong that they "aren't even close". They're definitely comparable, and a deal better than non-powered armor, even if the Sisters version lacks the black carapace, enhanced lifesaving capabilites, and has inferior strength enhancement.

But Inquisitor (the game, a Games Workshop official product and source) had Space Marine power armor being better than just regular power armor by about 30% better protection, as well as all the aditional systems. Neither Inquisitors nor Sororitas were afforded that differential in Inquisitor, so that's pretty much the basic qualifier right there. Technically both systems are inferior to that which the Space Marines wear.

But this whole thread is an exercise in pedantry and one-upsmanship, which is unsurprising given the subject matter and the unsavory posters who tend to come along any time there's a suggestion that Space Marines might be better than Sisters of Battle.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

They aren't even close to equal in lore. The SoB power armor has been retconned to not offer as much protection, and the inquisitor's never has.

Citation needed.

I don't even think it was "retconned". The only place it's ever been "equal" is on the tabletop, but that's because the tabletop uses margins of 16.7%, and there's no way to have a quantifiable difference between a 3+ and a different 3+. Though he's definitely wrong that they "aren't even close". They're definitely comparable, and a deal better than non-powered armor, even if the Sisters version lacks the black carapace, enhanced lifesaving capabilites, and has inferior strength enhancement.

But Inquisitor (the game, a Games Workshop official product and source) had Space Marine power armor being better than just regular power armor by about 30% better protection, as well as all the aditional systems. Neither Inquisitors nor Sororitas were afforded that differential in Inquisitor, so that's pretty much the basic qualifier right there. Technically both systems are inferior to that which the Space Marines wear.

But this whole thread is an exercise in pedantry and one-upsmanship, which is unsurprising given the subject matter and the unsavory posters who tend to come along any time there's a suggestion that Space Marines might be better than Sisters of Battle.

Agreed the Sororitas Power armour is similar but lacks the direct interface, some of the tech and full strength boost.....

Did Inquisitor ever have stats for Sororitas armour - I don't recall it? Must have a look......

Since there are no average Inquisitors or their equipment its virtually impossible to compare them - one might have a suit of basic armour whilst another may have a relic artifcer armour with so much cool stuff that they can go toe to toe with Genestealer Brood Lords.

I think one can look to modern military problems to understand why SM are potentially very useful:

1. For the IDF, they engage in a policy of assassination against their terrorist opponents. Hamas, knowing this, has most likely put their command post underneath the primary hospital in Gaza, ironically in a bunker built by the Israelis. Israel doesn't have a force to launch a powerful pinpoint strike into the heart of the opposition defenses and Israel doesn't want to level the Hospital to reach the bunker.

Enter IDF Mandatory Service Space Marines (tm). They can be dropped into the middle of Gaza city fight their way into the bunker, kill the Hamas leadership, then leave in a hail of fire on their IDF Mandatory Service Space Marine Thunderbolts (tm)^2. As the IDF Mandatory Service Space Marines are highly trained soldiers, they can be instructed to cause less damage than several one ton bunker-busting bombs.

2. The leader of ISIS is a seriously bad person, both for brutality and his successes. The US would want to kill him, but may not be able to find him or reach his location with enough force.

Enter US Freedom Space Marines (FSM) (tm), with Scouts!. The genetically enhanced FSM Scouts can hide in the desert for weeks/ months tracking the ISIS chief. When he is found, a team of FSM Terminators can drop on his location, kill him, then extract in a hail of gunfire on the Freedom Space Marine Thunderhawk (tm)^3.

The concept of Space Marines, heavily armored shock troops with heavy technological and doctrinal support geared towards pin-point strikes, would be very useful for contemporary militaries facing contemporary problems.

But, it is interesting to note when Space Marines would not work.

Say that it is 1984, and the Soviets decide to invade Western Germany through the North German Plain. If the British Army of the Rhine had Fusilier Space Marines (tm), they're usefulness isn't immediately apparent.

The Soviet Forces are likely designed to survive some level of decapitation strikes, so Fusilier Space Marine attacks against command posts isn't decisive. The BOAR couldn't reasonably field enough Space Marines to have influence over more than one battle zone. However, the scale of the war is so large that localized successes are likely unimportant.

In short, a BAOR Fusilier Space Marine isn't an immediately decisive force in a WW3 situation on the North German Plain.

Applied to WH40k: if the Imperium faces a large number of 'small' opposition, the Space Marine force is useful for applying that decisive force at the key position. The limited number of Space Marines becomes much more restrictive as the scale of the conflict increases.

Which leads to the humorous conclusion:
Space Marines, the ultimate COIN force.

DrRansom wrote:
I think one can look to modern military problems to understand why SM are potentially very useful:1. For the IDF, they engage in a policy of assassination against their terrorist opponents. Hamas, knowing this, has most likely put their command post underneath the primary hospital in Gaza, ironically in a bunker built by the Israelis. Israel doesn't have a force to launch a powerful pinpoint strike into the heart of the opposition defenses and Israel doesn't want to level the Hospital to reach the bunker.

Enter IDF Mandatory Service Space Marines (tm). They can be dropped into the middle of Gaza city fight their way into the bunker, kill the Hamas leadership, then leave in a hail of fire on their IDF Mandatory Service Space Marine Thunderbolts (tm)^2. As the IDF Mandatory Service Space Marines are highly trained soldiers, they can be instructed to cause less damage than several one ton bunker-busting bombs.

This is a bad comparison because the Imperium does not care about "civilian" casualties. The hospital is full of xenos and/or heretics that will have to be exterminated anyway, so blowing it up with the same bomb that destroys the command post would be considered efficient use of valuable ammunition.

2. The leader of ISIS is a seriously bad person, both for brutality and his successes. The US would want to kill him, but may not be able to find him or reach his location with enough force.

Enter US Freedom Space Marines (FSM) (tm), with Scouts!. The genetically enhanced FSM Scouts can hide in the desert for weeks/ months tracking the ISIS chief. When he is found, a team of FSM Terminators can drop on his location, kill him, then extract in a hail of gunfire on the Freedom Space Marine Thunderhawk (tm)^3.

Why bother with the terminators? Pinpoint the target's location, drop an orbital bombardment on them. Same end result, except without the need to tie up priceless space marines for weeks just in case the enemy leader is found.

Because the Imperium is wasteful and stupid. A pinpoint Terminator strike that broke the back of the enemy war machine would bring glory to the chapter.

In fact, that's the answer to this thread. Space Marines exist because the Imperium is wasteful and stupid.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Space Marines exist because the Imperium is wasteful and stupid.

At first glance it wasn't an answer, but at a second you are right. The marines seem wasteful and stupid too, but on the occasion where they end a war before the enemy general has made his "fight to the last man" speech they bring in that coin many times over.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The only place it's ever been "equal" is on the tabletop

No. In the Witch Hunter codex, it is explicitly stated as providing the same level of protection.
Note that jakejackjake was speaking specifically about protection.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The only place it's ever been "equal" is on the tabletop

No. In the Witch Hunter codex, it is explicitly stated as providing the same level of protection.
Note that jakejackjake was speaking specifically about protection.

It is also a perfect example of why PA and imperial tech defies the laws of physics in general. Logic does not apply.

Despite being thinner and nothing indicating that the armour is of better quality or material, it still provides equivalent protection. Rationalise that, good sirs.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The only place it's ever been "equal" is on the tabletop

No. In the Witch Hunter codex, it is explicitly stated as providing the same level of protection.
Note that jakejackjake was speaking specifically about protection.

And why is that? Because it's in the tabletop rules, lol. And the specific wording in that codex is "degree of protection" which is an approximate measurement, not a specific one.

Again, in both Inquisitor, and the less authoritative Dark Heresy/Deathwatch, the armor is lighter. But again, this argument is pedantic, and the SoB fan "selective canonicity" argument comes into play, lol.

The Space Marines codex says, in a very definite manner, that the Astartes are humanity's foremost defense.

Are we to take this at face value, too?

Just tossing this question out here.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Because the Imperium is wasteful and stupid. A pinpoint Terminator strike that broke the back of the enemy war machine would bring glory to the chapter.

In fact, that's the answer to this thread. Space Marines exist because the Imperium is wasteful and stupid.

Orbital bombardments are more complicated than you think and it would be a waste of resources using an orbital bomb to take out one man. Terminators can accurately get the job done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
The Space Marines codex says, in a very definite manner, that the Astartes are humanity's foremost defense.

Are we to take this at face value, too?

Just tossing this question out here.

Depends on who you're asking...

 Ashiraya wrote:

It is also a perfect example of why PA and imperial tech defies the laws of physics in general. Logic does not apply.

I don't know about the laws of physics but it does show the rules don't really portray the background.

Despite being thinner and nothing indicating that the armour is of better quality or material, it still provides equivalent protection. Rationalise that, good sirs.

A good point and one that you can also apply to the various Marks of Space Marine Power Armour. Iron Armour, made with extra thick frontal armour, basically turns the Marine into a walking tank; save 3+. Heresy Armour made with inferior materials and techniques, held together with rivets; save 3+.


Using the rules isn't helpful which ever game system is used but Astartes is armour is described as the pinnacle of Power Armour technology which seems a pretty emphatic statement to me.

Sherlock Obiwan Clouseau wore a power-armored bodyglove under his coat in RT.

Remember: Let the Inquisitor win.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
And why is that? Because it's in the tabletop rules, lol.

No. It is on a fluff page that contains nothing but fluff. I can scan it, but I have the French version.
Looks like that:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
And the specific wording in that codex is "degree of protection" which is an approximate measurement, not a specific one.

So, what would be a specific one?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Again, in both Inquisitor, and the less authoritative Dark Heresy/Deathwatch, the armor is lighter.

I just looked through my Inquisitor rulebook, there is no mention of any Sister of Battle. Was that from a supplement?
I do not have Dark Heresy or Deathwatch.

 Ashiraya wrote:
It is also a perfect example of why PA and imperial tech defies the laws of physics in general. Logic does not apply.

Despite being thinner and nothing indicating that the armour is of better quality or material, it still provides equivalent protection. Rationalise that, good sirs.

Well, that is one among the many, many things that make no sense about 40k. Especially if we take your “space marines are extra-über strong” views.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
And why is that? Because it's in the tabletop rules, lol.

No. It is on a fluff page that contains nothing but fluff. I can scan it, but I have the French version.
Looks like that:

Spoiler:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
And the specific wording in that codex is "degree of protection" which is an approximate measurement, not a specific one.

So, what would be a specific one?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Again, in both Inquisitor, and the less authoritative Dark Heresy/Deathwatch, the armor is lighter.

I just looked through my Inquisitor rulebook, there is no mention of any Sister of Battle. Was that from a supplement?
I do not have Dark Heresy or Deathwatch.

 Ashiraya wrote:
It is also a perfect example of why PA and imperial tech defies the laws of physics in general. Logic does not apply.

Despite being thinner and nothing indicating that the armour is of better quality or material, it still provides equivalent protection. Rationalise that, good sirs.

Well, that is one among the many, many things that make no sense about 40k. Especially if we take your “space marines are extra-über strong” views.

While I do believe the protection of non-astartes PA is sufficient, it doesn't necessarily reach the protection offered by astartes power armour (though it may come close).

FFG's publications treat Sisters fairly badly and make them Space-Witches, so should be largely discounted from any discussion of the faction.

Also, just for fun, every character in Inquisitor is way underpowered compared to the space marine. But take the same characters in 40k, and… it is just the opposite! Suddenly arcoflagellants, death cultists and inquisitors will eat tacticals for breakfast! Which makes no sense, I agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
While I do believe the protection of non-astartes PA is sufficient, it doesn't necessarily reach the protection offered by astartes power armour (though it may come close).

Well, my book says it offer the same level of protection, but lacks the survival mechanics and strength enhancement offered by Astartes PA. Also that might help Ashiraya rationalize stuff: this mechanism that apparently turn space marine urine into new nutriments will surely take some room in the armor while providing next to no additional protection, same for the additional servos.

 Psienesis wrote:
FFG's publications treat Sisters fairly badly and make them Space-Witches, so should be largely discounted from any discussion of the faction.

Everybody treats sisters terribly to be fair.

Not true. Relic, for instance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waEqHEebqbo

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Also, just for fun, every character in Inquisitor is way underpowered compared to the space marine. But take the same characters in 40k, and… it is just the opposite! Suddenly arcoflagellants, death cultists and inquisitors will eat tacticals for breakfast! Which makes no sense, I agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
While I do believe the protection of non-astartes PA is sufficient, it doesn't necessarily reach the protection offered by astartes power armour (though it may come close).

Well, my book says it offer the same level of protection, but lacks the survival mechanics and strength enhancement offered by Astartes PA. Also that might help Ashiraya rationalize stuff: this mechanism that apparently turn space marine urine into new nutriments will surely take some room in the armor while providing next to no additional protection, same for the additional servos.

"Whilst power armour is most commonly associated with the Adeptus Astartes, the Sisters of Battle and many Inquisitors also use powered armour of one sort or another. Typically however these armours may not contain the same strength-enhancing properties or life-support functions of Space Marine power armour, nor do they provide the same amount of protection." -Lexicanum

Lexicanum here seems to disagree though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Not true. Relic, for instance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waEqHEebqbo

But keep in mind relic is the same company that created Spacemarine, which is about a SM captain and two command squad members steamrolling an entire ork waagh and destroying a Chaos invasion. The game was fun and the beginning was believable but it lost sense at the end.

I can provide you several Codex quotes that indicate Lexicanum is wrong.

 Psienesis wrote:
I can provide you several Codex quotes that indicate Lexicanum is wrong.

Please do then.

I will when I get home and can provide you with the page numbers, I don't walk around with my Codices in hand.

 Psienesis wrote:
I will when I get home and can provide you with the page numbers, I don't walk around with my Codices in hand.

Very well. And just to add, Lexicanum sources its info.

Not always, and not always accurately. There's been more than a couple articles where the sourced pages don't state what the article claims they do.

Lexi is, at least, far, far better than the 40K Wiki is in this regard.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Also that might help Ashiraya rationalize stuff: this mechanism that apparently turn space marine urine into new nutriments will surely take some room in the armor while providing next to no additional protection, same for the additional servos.

There are no real sources for this, though.