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Speed.

Space Marines function much faster than imperial armies. For times of material expansion, a space marine army is much more efficient at moving into an area, weakening it sufficiently, and then moving on. They excel at this purpose.

Imagine them more like a mobile delta-force-esque group. The reliability they add (and expertise) makes them worthwhile.

The fact that the astra militarum is so easily trained, unspecialized, and unaugmented makes them less efficient at adapting to certain enemies, or handling situations efficiently. Though the astra militarum can waste 10,000,000 men on taking an entrenched position, it is less efficient than sending half a space marine chapter to do the same (esp. if they are experts in siege warfare).

It is true that speed is another advantage over the navy. The Imperial Navy is tied down by a lot of Administratum paperwork. Astartes can happily ignore the red tape and do the mission instead.

 Hashbeth wrote:
Speed.Space Marines function much faster than imperial armies. For times of material expansion, a space marine army is much more efficient at moving into an area, weakening it sufficiently, and then moving on. They excel at this purpose.

You know what also excels at this purpose? Artillery. If you just want to kill everything in an area and move on then you don't want marines, you want artillery/orbital bombardments/etc.

Though the astra militarum can waste 10,000,000 men on taking an entrenched position, it is less efficient than sending half a space marine chapter to do the same (esp. if they are experts in siege warfare).

Actually it isn't. Space marines are so rare and valuable that it's probably better to sacrifice those 10 million guardsmen than to risk losing even a single marine. And a commander will find it much easier to obtain another 10 million guardsmen to replace them than to get a chapter to send half of its forces.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
It is true that speed is another advantage over the navy. The Imperial Navy is tied down by a lot of Administratum paperwork. Astartes can happily ignore the red tape and do the mission instead.

That's not an argument for making space marines, it's an argument for getting rid of the idiotic red tape.

 Peregrine wrote:


You know what also excels at this purpose? Artillery. If you just want to kill everything in an area and move on then you don't want marines, you want artillery/orbital bombardments/etc.

Don't forget the earlier note about collateral damage to structures and so on. It may not be a common situation but it does exist.

That's not an argument for making space marines, it's an argument for getting rid of the idiotic red tape.

Yes, but the Imperium is not reasonable, so they bypass the red tape with super-soldiers instead.

How grimdark.

 Gogsnik wrote:
If you don't just need to kill something then you need a boots on the ground approach in which case, as you've already pointed out, Marines smash their way in, secure their target and then withdraw.

Except, as I said, space marines suck at "boots on the ground". Because of their ridiculously low numbers they're dependent on smashing something and then running away as fast as possible before they find themselves outnumbered thousands to one. Marines simply can't hold ground because if they try the enemy can arrange a counter-attack that will inflict casualties. Sure, it might come at a high price, but when the enemy has dozens of krak missiles/lascanons/etc for every marine in the target area marines are going to die. And it would be much better to lose an entire regiment of guardsmen attempting to take and hold a position than to lose a single marine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Don't forget the earlier note about collateral damage to structures and so on. It may not be a common situation but it does exist.

If collateral damage is an issue then throw a million guardsmen at the problem instead of an orbital bombardment, and make them use their bare fists instead of lasguns. It's a lot easier to get a million expendable guardsmen than a single tactical squad.

But really, this is only a problem because GW doesn't have any sense of scale. If you assume that marines are about as effective as they are on the tabletop (instead of superman with giant shoulder pads) and increase their numbers by a few orders of magnitude you get useful elite soldiers. Space marines are only stupid when GW keeps insisting that there is less than one space marine for each inhabited planet in the Imperium.

Yes, but the Imperium is not reasonable, so they bypass the red tape with super-soldiers instead.

But the question here is "is it reasonable for the Imperium to have space marines". That was just a concession that space marines aren't reasonable, and your only point of disagreement is that they're unreasonable for different reasons.

So then, if there are too few Space Marines per Imperial World, how many special forces are there per person in the United States if 1% of the population serves in the military and the amount of combat positions are less than that.

Special Forces are not in large numbers, not even in our own reality, that is why they are a small elite force that is fantasized about in our time as we glorify such people. Kind of the way Space Marines are...

Special Forces are to go in, complete the mission and get out. The fluff treats the Space Marines in the same way. They have a specific task, one that can't be solved by throwing tons of bodies at it but you need highly trained specialists who have been battle hardened and rigorously trained to endure those conditions.

As I said before, Robert Heinlein already made the best case for why elite troops in Power Armor would be so useful in sci-fi combat even with highly destructive fire power. Each kind of force has it's place and when not applied in that manner, a strategy fails.

 Envihon wrote:
So then, if there are too few Space Marines per Imperial World, how many special forces are there per person in the United States if 1% of the population serves in the military and the amount of combat positions are less than that.

Special Forces are not in large numbers, not even in our own reality, that is why they are a small elite force that is fantasized about in our time as we glorify such people. Kind of the way Space Marines are...

Special Forces are to go in, complete the mission and get out. The fluff treats the Space Marines in the same way. They have a specific task, one that can't be solved by throwing tons of bodies at it but you need highly trained specialists who have been battle hardened and rigorously trained to endure those conditions.

As I said before, Robert Heinlein already made the best case for why elite troops in Power Armor would be so useful in sci-fi combat even with highly destructive fire power. Each kind of force has it's place and when not applied in that manner, a strategy fails.

That kind of special forces is less necessary in 40k. Collateral damage is not a problem. Political concerns (i.e. sending an army would start a war, so send special forces instead) is not a problem. Literally everyone is at eachother's throats constantly, so there's no need for a Seal Team Six-esque operation when you can just crack the continent from orbit, if necessary.

To address your point more directly:
If each force has its place, then what places do Space Marines inhabit? Most of what special forces do nowadays can be taken care of by brute force in 40k, as illustrated above.

Weren't Space Marines developed to stand up one on one with an Ork if I remember correctly. I believe Orks were the initial threat to the Imperium. Plus they are the tip of the spear, they make planet fall, with fewer numbers, kill the enemy, and secure their objectives, which could even be just a secure landing zone for the Imperial Guard. Space Marines can take toxins that would kill normal men, they can go without sleep, they have two hearts, etc. etc.
Why take a company with tanks, titans, and all the support they need to operate when you can complete the same mission with a few Marines, one assault ship to transport them, and few support staff.
Plus, they know no fear. They don't need the threat of being shot by a commissar to fight the enemy. They crave the fight, they were altered for war.
Edge of the knife, tip of the spear.

 Kelly502 wrote:
Why take a company with tanks, titans, and all the support they need to operate when you can complete the same mission with a few Marines, one assault ship to transport them, and few support staff.

Because it's much easier to obtain the company of tanks/infantry/etc than a single tactical squad. This is the problem with GW's completely broken sense of scale, space marines are so absurdly rare and valuable that in virtually every conceivable situation it's easier to just throw a few million guardsmen or other conventional forces at the problem.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kelly502 wrote:
Why take a company with tanks, titans, and all the support they need to operate when you can complete the same mission with a few Marines, one assault ship to transport them, and few support staff.

Because it's much easier to obtain the company of tanks/infantry/etc than a single tactical squad. This is the problem with GW's completely broken sense of scale, space marines are so absurdly rare and valuable that in virtually every conceivable situation it's easier to just throw a few million guardsmen or other conventional forces at the problem.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I still think the Space Marines should use some kind of recon/stealth/sniper unit that consists of experienced soldiers, not recruits (Well... Scouts are pretty badass but they are still recruits in comparison to the others).

Space wolves do.

 Psienesis wrote:
For that kind of operation, there are either specialist Chapters that do that sort of thing, or other Imperial organizations that can perform the role and then provide intel to the Space Marines (Tanith First-And-Only, Vindicare, various DCA, etc.).

Well, DCA would likely suck at recon.
- “Hey, how are the enemy lines”
- “We killed that man by opening his trachea and leaving him to bleed to death and then we killed that women by breaking her neck and then we killed…”
- “I do not care who you killed, I want to know information that will tell us on which front we should rather attack!”
- “… poison made him mad with pain and then we killed…”

 Peregrine wrote:

You know what also excels at this purpose? Artillery.

Those artillery bombardments did just that during the US island hopping in WWII. Practically a stroll on a beach afterwards.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
So then, if there are too few Space Marines per Imperial World, how many special forces are there per person in the United States if 1% of the population serves in the military and the amount of combat positions are less than that.

Special Forces are not in large numbers, not even in our own reality, that is why they are a small elite force that is fantasized about in our time as we glorify such people. Kind of the way Space Marines are...

Special Forces are to go in, complete the mission and get out. The fluff treats the Space Marines in the same way. They have a specific task, one that can't be solved by throwing tons of bodies at it but you need highly trained specialists who have been battle hardened and rigorously trained to endure those conditions.

As I said before, Robert Heinlein already made the best case for why elite troops in Power Armor would be so useful in sci-fi combat even with highly destructive fire power. Each kind of force has it's place and when not applied in that manner, a strategy fails.

That kind of special forces is less necessary in 40k. Collateral damage is not a problem. Political concerns (i.e. sending an army would start a war, so send special forces instead) is not a problem. Literally everyone is at eachother's throats constantly, so there's no need for a Seal Team Six-esque operation when you can just crack the continent from orbit, if necessary.

To address your point more directly:
If each force has its place, then what places do Space Marines inhabit? Most of what special forces do nowadays can be taken care of by brute force in 40k, as illustrated above.

When the Space Marines were first created, they did have that job because their original purpose was to bring lost human worlds into the embrace of the Imperium. We wanted to break a population but not destroy the planet and I still do think that for the most part, Space Marines still have that role. When you bombard a planet to take it over even from xenos and even though you don't care about collateral damage, you still would destroy the infrastructure or the resources. If you would do this to a Forge World or an Agri-World, what was the point? You now destroyed the very reason why that planet was important to the Imperium and have to spend time and resources rebuilding it which in the time that it is, that might not be something that the Imperium can afford. I am also sure that the Ecclesiarchy would be kind of ticked off if you did that to one of the Shrine Worlds as well.

I mean you can even read to Space Marine entry and the Astra Militarum entry in the 7th Edition Dark Millennium part of the rule book to find why both exist: Space Marines pg 55: "Like Angels of Death, the superhuman Space Marines sweep into battle as if from nowhere, shattering their foes in a blaze of fire and death before leaving as abruptly as they came...Space Marines are the most powerful of the Imperium's warriors and they are expected to accomplish almost impossible battlefield duties, lead vital assaults, confront the most horrendous of foes and hold their positions no matter how hopeless the odds. Though their numbers are not great, they are sufficient for any task. Space Marines are masters of the lightening assault, thought they embrace any role to achieve victory; they were made for war, trained for victory and are armed for battle."

Now the Astra Militarum pg 61: "The Imperial Guard is Mankind's primary and most numerous defense. With soldiers, battle tanks, and artillery beyond number, they are the sledgehammer force that, thought slow to deploy, delivers devastating payload when it cumbersome blows land. Soldiers of the Imperial Guard are men, not genetically enhanced super humans. They fight not with the most finely crafted armaments in the galaxy, but with weapons and armor that can cheaply and easily mass-produced. They are the largest coherent fighting force in the galaxy, able to move massed regiments and armored vehicles across the segmentums to join any fray."

Not to mention, what usually happens when AM confront Chaos? They freak out or get converted into as the Chaos force sweeps in. The Space Marines are needed to fight fire with fire as the battle the CSM, a foe that would break a lot of AM regiments. They need commisars for Emperor's sake to keep their morale and good discipline while a Space Marine needs none of these things since they shall know no fear.

 Envihon wrote:
I am also sure that the Ecclesiarchy would be kind of ticked off if you did that to one of the Shrine Worlds as well.

The Ecclesiarchy has its own army that is fully capable of defending or retaking Shrine Worlds and that has the obvious advantage of not being made of inhuman heretics. Do you have any idea how much effort it would take to reconsecrate a shrine world if it had been liberated by marines ?

 Envihon wrote:
Not to mention, what usually happens when AM confront Chaos? They freak out or get converted into as the Chaos force sweeps in. The Space Marines are needed to fight fire with fire as the battle the CSM, a foe that would break a lot of AM regiments. They need commisars for Emperor's sake to keep their morale and good discipline while a Space Marine needs none of these things since they shall know no fear.

Do you know the difference between a commissar and a chaplain? With a commissar, your chances of joining Chaos go down to “very unlikely”. With a chaplain, they stay up to “happens all the bloody time”!

RivenSkull wrote:
Those artillery bombardments did just that during the US island hopping in WWII. Practically a stroll on a beach afterwards.

You're forgetting that this is the setting where an IG army shelled a rebel hive city for multiple years, long after all signs of life had ended. And it's also the setting where starship weapons make real-world nukes look like a pretty fireworks display. If you want something dead in 40k it will be dead, and your troops will move in to occupy the empty wasteland.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kelly502 wrote:
Why take a company with tanks, titans, and all the support they need to operate when you can complete the same mission with a few Marines, one assault ship to transport them, and few support staff.

Because it's much easier to obtain the company of tanks/infantry/etc than a single tactical squad. This is the problem with GW's completely broken sense of scale, space marines are so absurdly rare and valuable that in virtually every conceivable situation it's easier to just throw a few million guardsmen or other conventional forces at the problem.

Yes well the Catachan's say hi. A death world and they should be rarer than a marine but they're everywhere. pffft.
Well you can blame Guilliman for them being so rare. I think Guilliman wanted them to be flags. A bit like nobs really. Fight dispersed amongst the guard. Doing the commissar job, with deeds not a bullet in the head.

 Peregrine wrote:

You know what also excels at this purpose? Artillery.

On the open battlefield, yeah sure. That artillery also doesn't mean much in a hive, or leave many resource's to claim. Sm are the artillery when your up close, they try and cut the head off, collect the relic or what not and leave the guard (that's why there called that) to guard the joint.

Why did they exist? To take down things puny human's couldn't, and repeatedly do it. Mainly Ork's, Humans weren't to hard to bring back into the fold. SM were a strike force to go for the throat. How effective would germany have been if all the heads of state were taken out at once. Leaving all the bases unable to organize any effective resistance. That's a guard problem.

Why do they still exist? To take down the thing's puny humans can't. They're a rapid mobile response unit. While the administratum is still filing paperwork, marines have boots on the ground.

The artillery also has to get to the battlefield in the first place before it can be deployed to shell those trenches.

It can take the IG *years* to respond to a threat, where the Space Marines can respond within hours or days.

One thing the fluff has been very consistent on is that Space Marines deploy and get around much more rapidly than the guard (when a reason it's mentioned, red tape comes up the most)

The few times in the fluff that the guard managed to deploy in a fast fashion was mainly because they happened to already be there at the time (as in, on that planet just as it got invaded). Often times, this was purely by accident (I think I recall at least two major fluff cases where a major guard force was there because red tape left them stranded there).

Even the guard's codex makes it explicit that they're slow to deploy. Space Marines' primary purpose has always been their fast reaction times. The fluff's clear on that.

The scale could probably still use some work but eh. It shows that as a force, the Space Marines definitely have their place in the Imperium (fast response when no one else can do it). It's just whether or not there's enough marines that's the question.

TiamatRoar wrote:

The scale could probably still use some work but eh. It shows that as a force, the Space Marines definitely have their place in the Imperium (fast response when no one else can do it). It's just whether or not there's enough marines that's the question.

Indeed, and that is a question that will never reach consensus.

With sufficient armour (Artificer) a Marine can, in the fluff, downright shrug off direct hits from Battle Cannons and anti-tank missiles. (Source is C:GK, page 63)

If you are into psychics, you know that you must be pretty tough to shrug off a direct hit from a weapon of the Battle Cannon's size, armour or no.

Handwavium gives Marines the strength they need to work.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
I am also sure that the Ecclesiarchy would be kind of ticked off if you did that to one of the Shrine Worlds as well.

The Ecclesiarchy has its own army that is fully capable of defending or retaking Shrine Worlds and that has the obvious advantage of not being made of inhuman heretics. Do you have any idea how much effort it would take to reconsecrate a shrine world if it had been liberated by marines ?

 Envihon wrote:
Not to mention, what usually happens when AM confront Chaos? They freak out or get converted into as the Chaos force sweeps in. The Space Marines are needed to fight fire with fire as the battle the CSM, a foe that would break a lot of AM regiments. They need commisars for Emperor's sake to keep their morale and good discipline while a Space Marine needs none of these things since they shall know no fear.

Do you know the difference between a commissar and a chaplain? With a commissar, your chances of joining Chaos go down to “very unlikely”. With a chaplain, they stay up to “happens all the bloody time”!

Because a Commisar makes all the difference when a Chaos-fueled superhuman is going through his lines like a hot knife through butter. The AM are usually not equipped to deal with power armor unless it is artillery. Should the CSM get beyond their lines using, you know, warp based powers, the AM are done, stick a fork in them done. It is pointed out several times that those flashlights they like to call guns against a CSM is like throwing a pebble at them. Against foes like that, the SM are needed. The only normal humans that could take them are the SoB because they happen to have Power Armor as well and have conditioning to withstand such treatment but the SoB are raised to be that and imo, suffer from the same problem that the SM do, they can't replenish their numbers quick enough since they are literally raised from children to be a SoB. And I would stand to argue, that the SM could replenish their numbers faster since they modify existing human adults. The AM is the only one who can afford to do that but you can't use that strategy every time.

To me, every single cog in the Imperium's military machine has their place. Psienesis pointed something out that I quoted above from the Rulebook itself, SM are good are precise, quick targeting to eliminate an enemy while it takes time for the AM to set up their main advantages. SoB are the best at burning heretics because kill it with fire.

Space marines OP. Period.

SoB have far more problems than is apparent with them.

Even if we go with their armour providing equal protection (Which is far from unambigious) then they are themselves still far more fragile. Blunt hits will still turn their organs to mush.

And I would stand to argue, that the SM could replenish their numbers faster since they modify existing human adults.

Maybe during the GC and the Heresy, but not any more. Those inducted into the Chapters as Aspirants are generally pre-pubescent boys to very young teens.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
If I recall correctly, someone in this section mentioned how PC astartes power armor and NPC astartes power armor have different stats in one RPG from FFG. If that is confirmed, I would rather focus on fluff than on FFG crunch.

The section I quoted comes from GW's Inquisitor, not FFG.

However, the questiion FFG crunch is fairly irrelevant. FFG's game systems have different stats because they weren't designed to be interchangeable. Really it's only important to compare the stats within the systems. The only system which features Sisters statted out is Dark Heresy, which only has Space Marines as NPCs. Deathwatch is a rather cartoonish dice rolling exercise. However, in both systems, the Space Marines suits are heavier than the Sisters ones, and the Sisters is equivalent to the Dark Heresy game's "Light Power Armor" (albeit with a slight increase to its body armor rating), and the Space Marine armor is more powerful than the game's "regular" Power Armor. Really, in the end, all the FFG crunch does is disagree (slightly) on just how much more power Space Marine armor is, not on whether or not it was heavier in the first place.

 Envihon wrote:
Against foes like that, the SM are needed.

No, melta and plasma are needed. Remember, there are a few billion guardsmen with melta or plasma guns for every space marine in the Imperium.

"Why do Space Marines even exist?"

SOMEONE had to wake the C'tan / Necrons up. They volunteered. Kinda.

TiamatRoar wrote:
One thing the fluff has been very consistent on is that Space Marines deploy and get around much more rapidly than the guard (when a reason it's mentioned, red tape comes up the most)

But the solution to red tape is to remove the red tape, not to build an entire new branch of the military that doesn't have any red tape.

Space Marines' primary purpose has always been their fast reaction times. The fluff's clear on that.

Except the absurdly tiny number of space marines means that while they may be able to get to your war fairly quickly if they decide to come the chances of getting any meaningful help from them are on the level of the chances of winning the lottery. A fast reaction force makes sense, but only if you can actually deploy it where it is needed.

Astartes do things that normal imperial guard can't.

A Marine can go on fighting in a siege etc for days without rest while a normal guardsmen will need to sleep. If a grenade was thrown at 10 guardsmen, you'd get 10 dead guardsmen more than likely. throw it at a space marine, he's probably just going to be going more slowly.

In the face of a daemon of chaos, guard could falter or even turn to chaos. whereas marines would be leading the vanguard to fight the daemon.

Marines also boost morale of guardsmen, allowing them to achieve things they may not otherwise.

 optometris wrote:
A Marine can go on fighting in a siege etc for days without rest while a normal guardsmen will need to sleep.

Yes, and for the cost of that one space marine you can get a few thousand more guardsmen to take over while the first one sleeps. And, unlike the space marine, the guardsmen aren't likely to run out of ammunition after the first few minutes of combat and be reduced to fighting with their chainsword for most of that multi-day siege.

If a grenade was thrown at 10 guardsmen, you'd get 10 dead guardsmen more than likely. throw it at a space marine, he's probably just going to be going more slowly.

Except the problem here is that having ten dead guardsmen is much less of a loss than having one slightly wounded space marine. There are a few million more guardsmen where those ten came from, the space marine is almost priceless. In fact, it would probably be better to throw a million guardsmen at the problem than to risk having that space marine be anywhere near a grenade.

In the face of a daemon of chaos, guard could falter or even turn to chaos. whereas marines would be leading the vanguard to fight the daemon.

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-40-000?N=102352+4294967254&Nu=product.repositoryId&qty=12&sorting=phl

Marines also boost morale of guardsmen, allowing them to achieve things they may not otherwise.

Yes, and I've said before this is pretty much the entire purpose of space marines. They're great for propaganda and religious value, they're a terrible weapon from a practical perspective.

 Ashiraya wrote:
If you are into psychics, you know that you must be pretty tough to shrug off a direct hit from a weapon of the Battle Cannon's size, armour or no.

You mean physics, right?
Though psychics could be interesting here .

 Envihon wrote:
Because a Commisar makes all the difference when a Chaos-fueled superhuman is going through his lines like a hot knife through butter.

Yes. Yes it does. Also melta does. Ask Ciaphas Cain and Ferik Jurgen.

 Envihon wrote:
The AM are usually not equipped to deal with power armor unless it is artillery.

Or anti-tank weapons. They have tons of them.

 Envihon wrote:
Against foes like that, the SM are needed.

What about Imperial Knights, Titanic legions, Baneblades and all that?

 Envihon wrote:
The only normal humans that could take them are the SoB because they happen to have Power Armor as well and have conditioning to withstand such treatment but the SoB are raised to be that and imo, suffer from the same problem that the SM do, they can't replenish their numbers quick enough since they are literally raised from children to be a SoB.

Yes, but basically every imperial guard, male or female, that has a young daughter and dies gives a new candidate. Sure that means a huge recruitment pool.

 Envihon wrote:
And I would stand to argue, that the SM could replenish their numbers faster since they modify existing human adults.

I do not see how that helps. Provided the recruitment is constant rather than on-demand, it should not change anything.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The section I quoted comes from GW's Inquisitor, not FFG.

Yes, from that rulebook that includes no Sister of Battle character, and does not talk anywhere about their armor. Then how is that relevant?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The only system which features Sisters statted out is Dark Heresy, which only has Space Marines as NPCs.

So, there are not stats for Sisters of Battle in Deathwatch, then?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
However, in both systems, the Space Marines suits are heavier than the Sisters ones, and the Sisters is equivalent to the Dark Heresy game's "Light Power Armor" (albeit with a slight increase to its body armor rating), and the Space Marine armor is more powerful than the game's "regular" Power Armor.

I do not understand, did you not just say there was not stats for Sisters in Deathwatch? Or is the other system here Inquisitor?
So, apparently Dark Heresy has Sisters' power armor less protective than Marines power armor. I think this sucks, and I am starting to see why Sisters player tend to dislike it so much…

 Ashiraya wrote:
SoB have far more problems than is apparent with them.

Even if we go with their armour providing equal protection (Which is far from unambigious) then they are themselves still far more fragile. Blunt hits will still turn their organs to mush.

The same thing happens with marines tanking battle-cannon shots. Yes they have two hearts, that does not make those hearts suddenly capable of resisting better to blunt hits. It is all space techo-magic gimmicks.