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I know a lot of 40K background, and as I studied different sources I have noted one thing.
Using Space Marines is foolish.

Here is what I mean: A tactical marine takes perhaps 70 years to get ready for battle. He needs high-quality training, extremely expensive armor and weapons, and simply consumes a ton of resources.
And yet, look at the losses that the marines take. I am not only talking about the tabletop game itself (where casualties are ludicrous) but I am also talking about the books, for example. My conclusion is that they are so extremely resource-inefficient so that they should have stopped using them long ago. Ten guardsmen is seemingly, according to a quote (Imperial Fists Primarch, I believe, but I am no certain) equivalent to one Space Marine. However, if we look at the cost in time and resources, we are looking at Space Marines consuming a hundred, if not a thousand times the resources a guardsman do, if you count everything in. While I am sure Space Marines have their uses; sudden overwhelming spear-point assaults, for example- surely it is not worth such a cost?

How is their use justified?

There are threats that you can't destroy with sheer numbers. Chaos, for example. Space Marines also allows for extreme force concentration.

Kharn slaughtered an entire planet in a night, and shattered two legions on his own. yes, he is chaos aligned, but that alone should make you see the value of having a thousand similar (or at least close to) soldiers at your disposal.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There are threats that you can't destroy with sheer numbers. Chaos, for example. Space Marines also allows for extreme force concentration.

Yes, but Guardsmen still seem more resource-effective in that matter. Stormtroopers are seemingly not far behind Space Marines and takes a LOT less resources.

Kharn slaughtered an entire planet in a night, and shattered two legions on his own. yes, he is chaos aligned, but that alone should make you see the value of having a thousand similar (or at least close to) soldiers at your disposal.

Kharn is Kharn. He is a special character. I am sure Loldraigo is resource-effective. I am not talking about the characters here, though; I am questioning the existence of a Space Marine warforce in the Imperium's armies.

Some times it's more effective to have 1 million supermen that operate by themselves rather than going through the Bureaucracy of the imperium to deliver the IG there,

Also the Space Marines as stated above are more concentrated in terms of power.
ie a Drop Pod inserting 10 Marines where more than 100 guardsmen would of been needed is a lot more effective and easier to pull off

Force concentration, it really is the only reason. A Space Marine is the single-most powerful concentration of toughness and firepower in one trooper. Granted, the firepower can be "copied" by any IG special weapons trooper, but he just won't stay alive as long, not to mention the close combat capabilities.

Don't let standard 40k tabletop fool you - whilst the rules are imho quite accurate to GW fluff, the battles with their equal point values on both sides aren't. The Marines' high mobility allows them to deploy just about anywhere and pick their battles, so that they can often utilise this advantage to the fullest by attacking weak points in an enemy's defense, or simply mass their forces for a focused blow to punch open a hole for their allies to follow through. Rarely would they actually commit to a "fair fight", only when there is no other way or when the area is a key tactical position that needs to be taken no matter what.
I have been told this is somewhat better represented in 40k Epic, where troop movements and deployment play a larger role than in the standard TT skirmishes.

Also, I'm really not sure about those 70 years ... Again going by GW fluff, Marine aspirants are recruited at age 10-14, with the implantation process being completed 4-6 years later, after which they become Scouts. I have no idea how long a newly minted Scout stays one, but I'm fairly sure it's not 60 years, except perhaps in some really obscure Chapter that does not see battle all that often. I always assumed that Scouts are Scouts for, like, 5-20 years or so, depending on the Chapter and the individual's conduct, i.e. when the Sergeant thinks "you're ready".
Let's not forget that, in spite of the rampant rumours about Marine longevity, GW fluff says that they usually live "only" 2-3 times longer than a normal man, and 60 years as a Scout sounds like a waste to me.

Lastly, also note that today's Imperium is not what the Emperor imagined. Space Marines were created as shock troops to pave a way for humanity through the stars. Back when they were created, there was no galaxy-spanning Imperial Guard but lots more Marines. As the Great Crusade went on, the Imperial Army - recruited from the normal human inhabitants of liberated lost colonies - slowly grew larger and larger, and their role in supporting the Astartes more and more important.
"Today" in the 41st millennium, their importance is switched. It is the Imperial Guard that holds the Imperium together, and the few remaining Space Marines who play a supporting role by being a strategic asset. In essence, their continued existence is a matter of tradition for the Imperium. In a way, they are not needed anymore, they are "just" still very nice to have, and have a place in the Imperial military due to history and past accomplishments.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Stormtroopers are seemingly not far behind Space Marines and takes a LOT less resources.

Ironically, there are less IG Storm Troopers than Space Marines - at least if you go by Codex fluff.
Speaks volumes about their requirements. Just about any young male with a fitting genetic makeup can be made into Astartes (which also explains how most Chapters can get along recruiting from just a single planet), but few graduates of the galaxy-wide Schola program are tough enough to become Storm Troopers.
Granted, there's also Cadian Kasrkin recruited just from the few worlds in the Cadian system and supposedly just as good as Munitorum STs. Then again, they have a 100% recruitment rate.

I think the dispersed nature of everything in the imperium argues for continued deployment of marines too. You read all the time about tallaran troops being dropped off on some random ice planet with no winter clothes, or stuff like that. Every marine can fight in pretty much any environment at a moments notice. Plus they are scattered all over, so they function like tripwires for the massive sledgehammer that is the guard.

Stormtroopers would make poor substitutes for Marines. In terms of overall numbers, there are 10000 munitorium Stormies at any one time in the entire Imperium. Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are most likely more numerous, but they are specialist troops for Ordo deployments.

The Kasrkin are the most numerous Stormtroopers before you drop down to vets and grenadiers, but again, most of them are already committed to combat zones across Cadia holding back the Black Legion.

And this is all without going through the logistics nightmares of the IG.

To sell models.

Because they are awesome, and this is fiction. Really bro really?

The troll in me wants to say "Well, awesome according to certain low-standard definitions of awesome anyway."

Really, they just exist to sell models. But in the lore, originally I think the Emperor was wanting to have the armed forces be marines to a much larger extent, to maximize their effect on the battlefield.

However, Marines proved they couldn't be trusted, ergo the codex astartes.

Besides, you're all overlooking the Space Marine's greatest strategic asset: plot armor. If the Imperium absolutely needs to capture an objective no matter what, they deploy Space Marines because, inevitably, a ragged handful of tragic heroes in power armor will survive to claim victory.

1.) Marines are a lot more capable in fluff then they are on the table.
2.) They are the tip of the spear, used to break an enemy or lead an assault that would otherwise take huge amounts of Imperial Guard resources that the Imperium can't afford to spend given how overstreched it is.

 Lynata wrote:
In a way, they are not needed anymore, they are "just" still very nice to have, and have a place in the Imperial military due to history and past accomplishments.

It's explicitly stated in the rulebook that with the Astartes the Imperium would have fallen long ago. They are still needed.

Speaks volumes about their requirements. Just about any young male with a fitting genetic makeup can be made into Astartes

Can be, but aren't. Only the best are chosen (except possibly in a Chapter on the verge of collapse).

I highly doubt squishies like guard would do well in boarding actions, or defending against them

I don't see how it's inefficient to have 1,000 or less Space Marines do something that would take 100 times that number of Imperial Guard.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
In a way, they are not needed anymore, they are "just" still very nice to have, and have a place in the Imperial military due to history and past accomplishments.

It's explicitly stated in the rulebook that with the Astartes the Imperium would have fallen long ago.

And without the Imperial Guard, the Imperium would effectively cease to be, instantly. Or the Mechanicus, or the Administratium, or the Scholastica Psykana, or the Navis Nobilites... in the end, the Astartes are much, much less important than most other Imperial organizations.

All of them work together to keep the Imperium running of course. The Astartes to a much lesser extent, but they still do their part. Sometimes.

Atleast Astartes are more important then Sisters of Battle

First rule of economics is the scarcity principle. In order to gain more of one thing you have to have less of something else. I honestly think this is a very fun question. It reminds me of a similar debate in Fall of Reach and Oynx in Halo. Essentially the creators of the Spartan program are forced to justify why their super soldiers are worth the massive investment. In Halo the argument is that essentially they are filling a role that no other force in the galaxy can fill. But later on ONI essentially concede that the program was really meant as a wave of reducing collateral damage in a civil war and that they aren't worth the cost in the war against the Covenant. That leads to the creation of the Spartan III program. Essentially cost effective suicide Spartans. The problem is the Imperium has no innovation. So you are stuck with a Space Marine program that still fulfills a unique purpose but hasn't adapted as effectively to the new millennium.

The minimum amount of time for a human to be turned into a Space Marine is 8-10 years.

Recruited at age 10-14(sometimes as old as 17) and then it takes 5-8 years for the implantations and psycho-indoctrination to finish.

At this point we have a Scout, just waiting to recieve the Black Carapace, which happens when there is an opening in the Chapter.

 Melissia wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
And without the Imperial Guard, the Imperium would effectively cease to be, instantly. Or the Mechanicus, or the Administratium, or the Scholastica Psykana, or the Navis Nobilites... in the end, the Astartes are much, much less important than most other Imperial organizations.

True, but the Astartes are still needed. They're worth their cost.

 Monster Rain wrote:
I don't see how it's inefficient to have 1,000 or less Space Marines do something that would take 100 times that number of Imperial Guard.

`

Studio fluff, and in universe quotes, put the ratio at 10-1.


Now, the reason there are space marines is pretty much tradition. Sure they are great force concentrators, however they are not meant for long drawn out campaigns. They also are one of the first lines of the defense, and when the situation can no longer be handled by the space marines, the Imperial guard is called in. [2nd Edition IG codex]

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Atleast Astartes are more important then Sisters of Battle

Debatable. Sisters could arguably fulfill many of the roles that Astartes fulfill for a lower cost.

They are the special forces of the Imperium, and a visable incarnation of the Emperor. And practically legend.

So much so that on many worlds, the average citizen may not actually believe that Space Marines are real. They are a story to get little children to behave.


This results in that, when trouble does arise and the Space Marines do show up, its enough to cow many worlds into submission.

A planet rebels for reasons not related to Chaos.

Then figures out of legend and the depths of time show up. Suddenly the Angels of Death that brought the Emperor's divine wrath to the enemies of the Imperium are there, and their guns are leveled at you.

Confronted by this, many rebellions are quelled with nary a shot fired. Its proof of the Emperor's will and all powerful might. He is no longer a figure in a stained glass window, he's very real.

Harriticus wrote:1.) Marines are a lot more capable in fluff then they are on the table.

Everyone is supposedly more capable in fluff than they are on the table. It all depends on what hyped-up story you read.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:It's explicitly stated in the rulebook that with the Astartes the Imperium would have fallen long ago. They are still needed.

Oh yes, back during the Great Crusade. It would've likely been impossible for the Emperor to expand his domain with just the people of Earth alone. Nowadays there's the Imperial Guard, though.

Half the time we read about them in M41, however, Marines are the very source of trouble for the Imperium. I'm sorry, but outside the usual bolter porn stories I just don't see it the way you do. They're simply too few, like IG Storm Troopers or the SoB. It's a "win the battle, not the war" kind of deal.
Someone likened the Space Marines to a force multiplier, which I think describes their role best. They open up opportunities for the massed armies of the Imperial Guard to exploit. Other times, they hold a critical location long enough until the actual military can reinforce the lines. Yet other times, they could take out an enemy leader. All of this can be solved also by just throwing more and more men at the problem, which the Imperial Guard does often enough in every battle where Marines are not present. Or they bomb the issue into tiny bits with massed artillery strikes or orbital lances. On a planetary scale, the Marines can achieve precious little. Their firepower is highly mobile, but also highly concentrated. In a locally limited engagement this works great, but compared to most Guard regiments or a Navy fleet, a Marine Chapter's firepower is just ... rather small. Which is why they value mobility so much in the first place.

Harriticus wrote:Can be, but aren't. Only the best are chosen (except possibly in a Chapter on the verge of collapse).

Sure. The best from that small segment of Imperial population they are allowed to recruit from.
And even then it's not actually the best, but the best of those that are (a) of the correct gender, (b) the correct age, (c) genetically compatible and (d) don't have a brain that is already too advanced to "block out" hypnotherapy (usually coincides with b though).

That said, Marine aspirant selection also seems hugely biased depending on a Chapter's individual culture/tradition. Some take the strongest child from a tribe of feral barbarians, and others take the most aggressive kid from a street gang. They're aggressive, they're young and malleable, and they should have good reflexes - good material, right? Then there's other Chapters like the Salamanders who recruit people that are good blacksmiths. Like that's going to help in a fight.

This is 40k. The Imperium isn't about "efficiency" - this includes the Space Marines.

Melissia wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:Atleast Astartes are more important then Sisters of Battle

Debatable. Sisters could arguably fulfill many of the roles that Astartes fulfill for a lower cost.

Have to admit, I'm with thenoobbomb on this one - though that is a result of my understanding of their numbers being even smaller than those of the Astartes. Possibly what you were referring to with "debatable" ...

One big advantage of the SoB is probably that they actually do what they're told, though, unlike certain Marine Chapters who just leave an ongoing campaign because they have "something better to do" (Dark Angels), do not show up in the first place (Space Wolves), or kill and eat their own allies in a geneseed-malfunction-induced berserker rage (Fleshtearers).

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There are threats that you can't destroy with sheer numbers. Chaos, for example. Space Marines also allows for extreme force concentration.

Its already been said enough. Not sure I can add much here.

Basically space marines exist for their name, and for the fact that they are basically special ops. Without them, imperial morale is 0 and nothing big gets done. What takes guards months, or years can be achieved by 300 grey knights in several hours. The siege of a planet could take decades from guardsmen, call in the blood angels, 1 day later its theirs. Space marines do what the guard can't. And provide hope for the guard.

 Lynata wrote:
Have to admit, I'm with thenoobbomb on this one - though that is a result of my understanding of their numbers being even smaller than those of the Astartes. Possibly what you were referring to with "debatable" ...

One big advantage of the SoB is probably that they actually do what they're told, though, unlike certain Marine Chapters who just leave an ongoing campaign because they have "something better to do" (Dark Angels), do not show up in the first place (Space Wolves), or kill and eat their own allies in a geneseed-malfunction-induced berserker rage (Fleshtearers).

Meh, GW could easily retcon the numbers of Sisters. In fact they've done this several times already, and that's just studio material.

 oracleofchange wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There are threats that you can't destroy with sheer numbers. Chaos, for example. Space Marines also allows for extreme force concentration.

Its already been said enough. Not sure I can add much here.

Marines can't destroy Chaos either.

To misquote Darkseid.... Chaos is.

If anything, the Inquisition does a far better job of "destroying" (weakening) Chaos than Marines could ever do.

For the same reason that in the real world you have the SAS and Navy Seals.

They also take a LOT more resourcing and funding than other forces, but again, can do things that simply CANNOT be achieved AT ALL by other forces.

For example, you may be able to infiltrate somewhere and kill someone with 10 special forces or 100, 1000 or 10,000 regular troops, but you can't do it without being noticed or as rapidly, and so you can't keep the terms of the conflict the same, so you need even MORE regular troops to do the job as the enemy reinforces their position.

Elite troops can do things quicker, and better, and that means there are things that only they can do at all.

Also, even transporting 1000 marines is easier than transporting 10,000-100,000 guardsmen.

 Grey Templar wrote:
They are the special forces of the Imperium, and a visible incarnation of the Emperor. And practically legend.

So much so that on many worlds, the average citizen may not actually believe that Space Marines are real. They are a story to get little children to behave.

This results in that, when trouble does arise and the Space Marines do show up, its enough to cow many worlds into submission.

A planet rebels for reasons not related to Chaos.

Then figures out of legend and the depths of time show up. Suddenly the Angels of Death that brought the Emperor's divine wrath to the enemies of the Imperium are there, and their guns are leveled at you.

Confronted by this, many rebellions are quelled with nary a shot fired. Its proof of the Emperor's will and all powerful might. He is no longer a figure in a stained glass window, he's very real.

All of this.... Space Marines are the Emperor's will made flesh and you don't want to take one of the most recognizable and most powerful Emperor's servants away.
Also want a proof they are useful - in 1'st Armageddon war 100 Grey Knight Terminators defeated Daemon Primarch Angron and his entire Berserker Army. Now how many Guardsmen you would need to stop that?
Every Chapter is an army for itself that can deal with everything but the biggest threats alone ( like full blown Ork WARGHHH or Tyranid Invasion ), and that means that you have more IG troops to deply somewhere they are needed. Astartes are needed for fear faction and their efficiency as they are designed to fight and defeat enemies that Guard can't.

Space Marines aren't the Emperor's Will made flesh.

That's the Inquisition. Space Marines are myths and legends to most Imperial citizens-- the Emperor's angels of death, as it were. They'll never get to see a Marine anyway-- but the Inquisition is something real that they hope they never have to deal with. The Inquisition is His will, manifest.