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I know a lot of 40K background, and as I studied different sources I have noted one thing.
Using Space Marines is foolish.
Here is what I mean: A tactical marine takes perhaps 70 years to get ready for battle. He needs high-quality training, extremely expensive armor and weapons, and simply consumes a ton of resources.
And yet, look at the losses that the marines take. I am not only talking about the tabletop game itself (where casualties are ludicrous) but I am also talking about the books, for example. My conclusion is that they are so extremely resource-inefficient so that they should have stopped using them long ago. Ten guardsmen is seemingly, according to a quote (Imperial Fists Primarch, I believe, but I am no certain) equivalent to one Space Marine. However, if we look at the cost in time and resources, we are looking at Space Marines consuming a hundred, if not a thousand times the resources a guardsman do, if you count everything in. While I am sure Space Marines have their uses; sudden overwhelming spear-point assaults, for example- surely it is not worth such a cost?
How is their use justified?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/21 11:15:25
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: There are threats that you can't destroy with sheer numbers. Chaos, for example. Space Marines also allows for extreme force concentration.
Yes, but Guardsmen still seem more resource-effective in that matter. Stormtroopers are seemingly not far behind Space Marines and takes a LOT less resources.
Kharn slaughtered an entire planet in a night, and shattered two legions on his own. yes, he is chaos aligned, but that alone should make you see the value of having a thousand similar (or at least close to) soldiers at your disposal.
Kharn is Kharn. He is a special character. I am sure Loldraigo is resource-effective. I am not talking about the characters here, though; I am questioning the existence of a Space Marine warforce in the Imperium's armies.
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A question for you, Swastakowey, as this has been bugging me.
You have said several times you dislike the setting and choose to ignore almost all of it except a few favourite parts of yours like your fav-faction the Guard. If so, why are you bothering to even participate in these arguments? It almost seems like you do it just out of spite, though I won't presume this is actually the case.
Ashiraya wrote: A question for you, Swastakowey, as this has been bugging me.
You have said several times you dislike the setting and choose to ignore almost all of it except a few favourite parts of yours like your fav-faction the Guard. If so, why are you bothering to even participate in these arguments? It almost seems like you do it just out of spite, though I won't presume this is actually the case.
Because its a lot of fun to argue fiction, arguing non fiction is serious and would rather do that in person. Also as stated before i think Space marines CAN be cool. Just with some real thought put behind them. I mean, knights in space would be very cool! Not the chunky hooligans they are now.
Also many of the things said annoy me as they go against real world examples with the excuse of space magic. Which I find is a poor excuse for things. I prefer my stories to be well thought out and well executed. Which I personally dont see in marines, despite what many claim of them.
Space Marines in their current design break logic in many places, like many other races. They are OK anyway. 40K is like, the place to go when you want some illogical action sci-fi-fantasy-amalgamation. It's not quite DBZ in space but it's not that far off, especially when we bring things like psykers and primarchs into the equation.
I respect your preferences, but 40K seems like an extremely poor choice for you, considering what you are looking for.
The tabletop guys who are basically guardsmen with +1 in some stats and upgraded equipment? That is not fluff Marines.
This is fluff marines.
There was a flash over his head, and a lascannon shot punched into a Bane Wolf’s gas reservoir. The tank exploded, spreading its angry death for dozens of metres around it. This time, it was the men of the Mortisian Guard whose screams were awful and short, and whose skin was puddling in the road. Bisset’s jaw dropped and he threw himself flat. The Leman Russ’s turret rotated in his direction, and the heavy bolter sponson chugged rounds. The turret hadn’t moved half its arc before a second lascannon beam blasted it from the chassis.
Armoured beings stormed past him. They were terrible, golden angels, and they fell upon the Guard with bolter and chainsword. They savaged the units that had escaped the release of the gas and tore the tanks apart. They were monsters who bore the garb of beauty. They were giants in the service of war turned into art. There were only five of them. There were a hundred times as many Guardsmen, and that was far too few. The battle was even more one-sided than the attack on the rebels had been. Within seconds, hulls had been ripped open, treads yanked from wheels and used as whips, and men scythed into shrieking meat. The Chaos Space Marines stood proudly in the carnage, gods well pleased by their allotment of blood. The surviving rebels emerged from their hiding places. They began to cheer, and the cry was taken up by more and more people pouring into the streets.
The fluff varies but generally 40K overall walks more into the area of 'mythology' than 'history'. It's like, you want Empire: Total War, but instead you play Age of Mythology and complain it's unrealistic.
40K is not realistic. It's not intended to be, it has never been, and it will never be. It will never be logical. It will never stretch your capacity for suspending disbelief to something less than its limit. It's the way the setting as a whole works.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/19 03:31:34
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In the case of the bane wolf, nobody said it had been leaking anywhere near the rebels. It most likely disperses quickly. Notice how it was blown up in the middle of the Guard lines, where it caused death for dozens of meters around it. Not illogical at all. Otherwise, no problems with that passage, other than it has your favourite faction being beaten by a faction you don't like in a way you don't like.
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Not to mention the hilarious administrative errors we see in certain publications. In the last codex, remember that IG regiment that was declared traitors long after they actually had been wiped out?
That was not the point I was making. The point I was making is that people are saying that Space Marines can work in x environment, or do this, or do that, when in actuality they're not special in their ability to do what a trained Gard unit can also do, for a lot less hassle and resources (getting marines to do what you want is a ballache).
Never said there wasn't a huge difference to their equipment. even in 7th Edition this is apparent. Manpower>Power Armour. Manpower>Bolt;.
Yes, but they're not needed now. Why not just scrap the marines alltogether? They're a useless and less superior throwback to a now-unnecessary project.
It's like fielding Sherman Tanks in the US army now because some of them still work. They're still not as good as the modern-day equivalent.
Which regiment can effectively fight Orks in close combat or equal the Eldar Aspect Warriors or survive in the vacuum of space at all in their standard wargear?
At no point did I say 'in standard wargear'. Also, look at Catachans, then look at Elysians, then look at Death Korps, Mordians, Valhallans, Steel Legion, Cadian Hazardous Environment Troops and Cadians and then tell me what Standard Wargear is. There are Guard Regiments that can fight Orks in close combat, or equal the Eldar Aspect Warriors, or survive the vacuum of space. Also, Marines don't best Orks in combat, just doesn't happen, not a 'standard' marine anyway.
None of this post makes any logical sense. Like, I am so much dumber reading this. IG beat orks and equal aspect warriors? Marines cant best orks in combat?
My friend, SM's can definitely slaughter stupid orks in combat. You need to read Rynns World.
It does not really matter which Astartes unit is nearby - they are normally able respond to any emergency swiftly and in their own vessel.
Yeah, but the problem is if they would be willing to respond. Space Marines fight for their glory, and the glory of the Emperor (Emprah!) They are independent of the chain of command, and choose where they want to fight, not where the Imperium of Man needs them to fight.
Because many Chapters seek glory in the Emperors name by avoiding battle.
I think I'm detecting sarcasm, but I'm not sure.
My point being that a Space Marine chapter if given the choice between defending a strategically unimportant Shrine World, and a Forge World would go defend the Shrine World, for the whole "Glory of the Emprah!" thing, rather than defending the world that, ya know, supplies munitions to the subsector.
There is little implying that what you are saying is true.
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Ashiraya wrote: I mean, if people wanted Marines that are not demigods of war, maybe you should take a look at Halo?
The Spartans are a lot like Space Marines, but in a setting that is sci-fi instead of fantasy, and the limits of their numbers is acknowledged (There's like a few hundred of them, which means they are not an actual army but rather leaders and operatives, despite the setting being far far smaller.)
Ashiraya wrote: I mean, if people wanted Marines that are not demigods of war, maybe you should take a look at Halo?
The Spartans are a lot like Space Marines, but in a setting that is sci-fi instead of fantasy, and the limits of their numbers is acknowledged (There's like a few hundred of them, which means they are not an actual army but rather leaders and operatives, despite the setting being far far smaller.)
Except Spartans would be butchered by Space Marines.
And I do believe Halo occured in the 2500's so that is really about 500 years in the future while Space Marines are created in the 30th millennium.
Of course. I never said otherwise. But there are plenty of obvious similarities (Huge soldiers in special heavy armour that have been given surgical enhancements and now acts as super-elite troops), so they can appeal to similar audiences, except that Marines require far more phlebotinum to function. Which one is preferable is down to taste.
The fact that Spartans actually are a remotely possible future instead of being space-magic is the reason I pointed them out at all. For example, I strongly suspect Peregrine and Swastakowey would prefer Spartans.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/04 23:16:30
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Peregrine wrote:
Ashiraya wrote: For example, I strongly suspect Peregrine and Swastakowey would prefer Spartans.
Actually I prefer the Starship Troopers style of power armor: awesome elites that are still mortal. I don't really know much about Halo, besides the fact that it was a mediocre console FPS.
As for why I like 40k, I'll copy/paste my reply to the same post in the other thread:
But Halo doesn't have the rest of the 40k setting. And low-end space marines fit the setting perfectly once you remember that the Imperium is not a rational empire that always uses the most efficient tools they can get. They're an insane and sadistic theocracy that often seems to exist for the sole purpose of extending the misery and suffering of humanity for as long as possible before a final, merciful death. They build giant cathedral-ships to worship their corpse god, they sacrifice millions of lives (along with vast amounts of weapons) to protect irrelevant religious shrines, they ban science and engineering as unforgivable heresy in favor of tank designs that a 1920s army would consider obsolete garbage, etc. Space marines are just one more part of that trend. They're an obscene waste of resources while simultaneously being too rare to matter 99.999% of the time, but god says to build space marines! Welcome to life in a dystopia.
Interesting theory, but it has nothing but extrapolation backing it up. I remain in disagreement.
Swastakowey wrote:
I agree.
I hate spartans, I think they have shields that stop bullets? So stupid. Can survive falls by locking up or something? Also stupid etc.
I too prefer Starship Troopers style of things. But I would prefer to just have normal grunts 99% of the time, with elite being soldiers with guys with experience or even (and it may sound odd) but those mech things in the Avatar movie. Space Marines would be cooler like that, because its sensible and has a purpose somewhat.
Usually, if its a video game, it sucks.
Shields that stop bullets? Indeed. Reverse-engineered Covenant technology. Sort of like tiny, weak, infantry-worn Void Shields.
Something that should totally exist in 40Kbtw, at least for officers and Space Marines.
The locking up you refer to is 'armour lock', that is, temporarily diverting extra power to the shields as a desperate way to survive a bad situation. To my knowledge, it has no effect on falls.
I prefer Marines because that is one thing this setting has that is reasonably unique; it blends space-magic demigods of war with WW1 trench warfare, something literally no other setting does, and something I am a vast fan of.
The reason this setting motivates having both in the same wars is that the former is much rarer, something that makes sense to me.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/05 00:14:40
Ashiraya wrote: Interesting theory, but it has nothing but extrapolation backing it up. I remain in disagreement.
It's not extrapolation, it's the basic premise of the setting: the Imperium is completely screwed up in every way possible. A big part of the "grimdark" concept is that the universe could be better, except the Imperium is not capable of change. Humanity is doomed to a slow and miserable decline because it is ruled by an insane theocracy, and the best you can do is fight to live another day.
I prefer Marines because that is one thing this setting has that is reasonably unique; it blends space-magic demigods of war with WW1 trench warfare, something literally no other setting does, and something I am a vast fan of.
But Starship Troopers power armor soldiers are tech-magic demigods. They drop in from orbit, bounce around the battlefield with JSJ tactics the Tau would envy, and use tactical nukes as a default weapon. The fact that they're still mortal and can be killed by appropriate weapons doesn't change the fact that they're awesome. Same with space marines: they're complete badasses, but if you shoot them they still die. Taking away the worst space marine fanboyism (tanking titan shots, etc) doesn't make them less interesting as power-armored demigods, it just prevents them from becoming boring comic book heroes and reducing the setting to "my space magic +10 is better than your space magic".
Starship Troopers, from what I have seen in the films, are basically Guardsmen.
I have never argued that Marines should tank Titan shots (That is Primarch territory) but certainly tank shots.
Swastakowey wrote: Well when I first played Halo 3 my friend said that his armour locks up so he doesnt survive falls. hence why he falls out of thew sky in the opening scene. I played the first mission and my brain boiled. The only reason I kept playing it was because on multiplayer you could turn the shields and health down to minimal so it makes more sense. Didnt help the no fall damage and crazy jumping. Its all bull really.
Shields should not be able to stop bullets. I have never had a satisfactory reason why they should.
If a Space Marine was in a field like Passchendaele he would sink into the muddy pools and drown (unless they have gills too ). All that weight concentrated on two feet cannot end well. Let alone them managing to leave a trench without destroying the barriers.
They do not in any way fit in a trench setting without space magic.
But yes they are unique. Just the numbers, physics and logic are missing a bit too much. (im just fussy I know. I have ruined movies for my fiancee as a result haha)
But they shouldnt be able to exist unless the world is in no way like ours. Which would explain why their Space marine Craft can actually fly.
With a little effort and thought they could be very very cool though.
Swastakowey wrote: The only reason I kept playing it was because on multiplayer you could turn the shields and health down to minimal so it makes more sense.
I am sorry, I know you can hold your own opinion and I respect that, but I lol'd somewhat at this. The multiplayer toughness is arguably toned down for gameplay reasons. The reason things do or do not make sense to you is because you think everything from Spartans to Guardsmen to Marines are WW2/WW1 soldiers with different skins, and when you see something that contradict this you consider this to be 'stupid' and headcanon it away.
I mean, headcanon is the point of 40K and it's okay and all, but the IGhammering here is just incredible.
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Swastakowey wrote: Bullets penetrate a lot of things. They also bounce around a lot. Contrary to video game physics a bullet can bounce around multiple people and fragment doing damage to those around the target. Depends on many things.
But you know what a bullet will be able to penetrate? Mystic battery energy.
There is no real logic to deflector shields mate, just sit back and think about it. Its a cool idea for lasers (maybe, im not 1090% on how lasers work though) but bullets, shells and other solid projectiles cant be stopped buy energy.
It is plausible according to NASA (read a while ago) that shielding may one day be able to protect from radiation bursts (which relates to lasers?) but thats about all the inverse stuff you have to back up your shield thing really.
You and I gotta play Space Marine sometime, Swasta.
Do you have it? And do you have the Chaos DLC?
No sorry. I am not a fan of FPS games. I didnt mind rising storm and play mount and blade nepolionics a lot. But I play games like civ 3 or war thunder on realistic mode and other simulators etc.
So no Space Marine for me. Punching Grots for health made me not look beyond the cover.
Its a pity because I am very good at FPS games too. Back when i used to play them.
It isn't actually a FPS.
The punching grots for health thing is okay if you remember that it is there because they decided that representing your toughness via active mitigation/regeneration is more exciting gamewise than a fixed health bar.
Never really played Halo, but referring to your post, I guess it is a Rosarius-equivalent. Rosarius. We have tons of them. Marines have Iron Halo or stuff like that. And they steal our rosarius too .
I heard the housing in middle eastern countries and walls over there are great at stopping bullets because of the materials. But it depends on many things.
Some bullets shatter on impact, but yes I fired a 22 at a car door to show someone how bullets work and it went right through. Hiding behind it would be worse as the bullet would change direction and enter awkwardly. It would also bring fragments causing more damage.
Bullets are crazy.
You are right though, bullets are incredibly lethal.
Or rather, we normal humans are just incredibly fragile. We are positively cluttered with weak spots and die from like anything.
You and I gotta play Space Marine sometime, Swasta.
Do you have it? And do you have the Chaos DLC?
No sorry. I am not a fan of FPS games. I didnt mind rising storm and play mount and blade nepolionics a lot. But I play games like civ 3 or war thunder on realistic mode and other simulators etc.
So no Space Marine for me. Punching Grots for health made me not look beyond the cover.
Its a pity because I am very good at FPS games too. Back when i used to play them.
It isn't actually a FPS.
The punching grots for health thing is okay if you remember that it is there because they decided that representing your toughness via active mitigation/regeneration is more exciting gamewise than a fixed health bar.
Sorry, I refer to 3rd person as FPS as well. I dont even know what to call a 3rd person shooter.
3rd person is better for taking cover though. I prefer nearly no health in games. Taking more than 1 hit from most weapons being rare is perfect for me. No room for error. Kill or be killed. Sensibility is also encouraged. I also dont like AI, they lack the necessary technology to make AI learning and changing enough. Health should not be regained during a short skirmish or battle. One life per match is also preferred.
Thanks for the offer though. I have found a couple of dakka members who play some of those games so im not left out haha.
Aww! But walking through gunfire unharmed is so cool! At least if you have PA or something.
I guess you would like call of duty?
But look at this, admit it looks really fun!
(Admittedly this was the easiest part- when the amount of Nobz or Primaris Psykers starts stacking up, it can get tougher. That I glitched a few times was purely due to my laggy computer!)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/05 01:35:21
You and I gotta play Space Marine sometime, Swasta.
Do you have it? And do you have the Chaos DLC?
No sorry. I am not a fan of FPS games. I didnt mind rising storm and play mount and blade nepolionics a lot. But I play games like civ 3 or war thunder on realistic mode and other simulators etc.
So no Space Marine for me. Punching Grots for health made me not look beyond the cover.
Its a pity because I am very good at FPS games too. Back when i used to play them.
It isn't actually a FPS.
The punching grots for health thing is okay if you remember that it is there because they decided that representing your toughness via active mitigation/regeneration is more exciting gamewise than a fixed health bar.
Never really played Halo, but referring to your post, I guess it is a Rosarius-equivalent. Rosarius. We have tons of them. Marines have Iron Halo or stuff like that. And they steal our rosarius too .
The former is an Iron Halo, the latter is a Halo shield.
While possibly similar in effectiveness, I think the differences are distinctive.
The Spacemarine campaign was good up until Chaos showed up. It would have been believable with Titus and his veterans slaughtering orks, especially simce they never really arrived with hordes larger than 300. But when the daemons and chais marines showed up thats when it lossed it fluffiness. Still one of the best and funnest games I ever played.
If you havent seen it, you should definitely watch totalbiscuit on youtube doing some Spacemarine gameplay. He was pretty hilarious.
The problem with the CSM in that game was that they were slow and dumb. Insufficient AI.
If they only had fought as actively as the player does, they would have been perfect!
This is the kind of gridmark stuff 40k needs. Down to earth suckyness.
There is plenty of this! Siege of Vraks is a good example, Xaphan's men fighting the Korps should be to your taste.
I prefer the epic duel between CSM and SM, two demigods of war striking each other with blows that would tear up tanks, Guardsmen & Cultists swarming around them, but keeping the distance from their huge allies!
And you know the best thing with 40K?
It can fit both of our preferences! In the same battle no less!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really don't get why people say supermighty Marines would be bad storywise. Superman is far stronger and it is entirely possible to write good stories about him. A barebones example of a story I would like: We put a few humans in the actual main roles, having a Marine accompany them for some parts of the story. We explore how the Marine views the humans and his own ascension, how he wants to protect all the small people who are so much weaker than he is, but no matter how hard he tries, he can't save all of them. Looking at how they feel about the question if they are truly human.
Besides, who can fail to smile when that scene happens? You know which one I am talking about. The scene when the humans have almost completed their mission but are cornered by the huge ugly Ork, their weapons seemingly having no effect on him. He is about to cut them all down with his huge axe, a vicious grin on his face, when a big armoured hand knocks on his shoulder, and when he turns around he is hurled aside like yesterday's garbage. I agree it would be bad if said scene basically summed up the entire movie, but it is just awesome if it is used once or twice, and the Guardsmen helping him out in turn (Say, a heretical squad of Lascannon teams have pinned down the Marine, and the humans help out their big friend by surprising the heretics from another angle.)
I'd actually prefer Marines in a supporting role storywise, with humans as the main protagonists. It just fits them better.
See Sydney's story about SoB going shopping with a Marine. That was just gold.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/05 01:50:14
This is the kind of gridmark stuff 40k needs. Down to earth suckyness.
There is plenty of this! Siege of Vraks is a good example, Xaphan's men fighting the Korps should be to your taste.
I prefer the epic duel between CSM and SM, two demigods of war striking each other with blows that would tear up tanks, Guardsmen & Cultists swarming around them, but keeping the distance from their huge allies!
And you know the best thing with 40K?
It can fit both of our preferences! In the same battle no less!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really don't get why people say supermighty Marines would be bad storywise. Superman is far stronger and it is entirely possible to write good stories about him. A barebones example of a story I would like: We put a few humans in the actual main roles, having a Marine accompany them for some parts of the story. We explore how the Marine views the humans and his own ascension, how he wants to protect all the small people who are so much weaker than he is, but no matter how hard he tries, he can't save all of them. Looking at how they feel about the question if they are truly human.
Besides, who can fail to smile when that scene happens? You know which one I am talking about. The scene when the humans have almost completed their mission but are cornered by the huge ugly Ork, their weapons seemingly having no effect on him. He is about to cut them all down with his huge axe, a vicious grin on his face, when a big armoured hand knocks on his shoulder, and when he turns around he is hurled aside like yesterday's garbage. I agree it would be bad if said scene basically summed up the entire movie, but it is just awesome if it is used once or twice, and the Guardsmen helping him out in turn (Say, a heretical squad of Lascannon teams have pinned down the Marine, and the humans help out their big friend by surprising the heretics from another angle.)
I'd actually prefer Marines in a supporting role storywise, with humans as the main protagonists. It just fits them better.
See Sydney's story about SoB going shopping with a Marine. That was just gold.
I know, which frankly is the reason i have my army.
I prefer the stories about the realities of whats going on. Like iwo jima was a great movie in that respect. It really shed light on the hardships (men dying of dysentery, starvation, propaganda, home life etc). I want my 40k to be informative and open peoples eyes to things they wouldnt think about. 40k is very distant from the emotions and problems real people would face. Such as disease, survival, training and so forth. Full metal jacket had an amazing first half. Or even things like the winter soldier documentaries from 1972. Stuff that makes you think (well made me think anyway).
Just some actual depth to it would be great. Instead of a codex about the human struggle, I get some shoddy half written vague stories about ridiculous things that have had little thought put behind them.
To me Space Marines are the opposite of this. They are like superman. I hated Super Man.
Now I watched watchmen a few weeks ago. There is a glowing blue guy who is somewhat invincible (not sure on the back story of those super heroes). He has all these abilities and powers that no one else has. Yet he is struggling internally and has lost touch with the world and does so much damage etc. That movie is a good example of how marines should be done. They should be intelligent but messed up. Loose touch with reality, and actually posses skills that are needed. A necessary evil to posses in order to protect humans etc.
Instead we have generic bland killy kill kill men who do dumb things for no real reason and the only bad they can do is go to chaos. They dont even battle with emotion. Its a brick with arms that kills.
Which makes me question them all the time.
I am ranting. I just think Space Marines are one of the worst offenders when it comes to preventing the fluff from becoming very good. They are unique, I just dont think they are unique in a good way.
the current fluff is very childish to put it bluntly.
Bad writing is not something I blame on Marines.
It's not like IG are consistently well written, either, if you truly sit on your 3rd ed codex as the serene island in the lava sea.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/05 02:23:04
d3m01iti0n wrote: Because they are awesome, and this is fiction. Really bro really?
So you come onto background discussion forums to say that? Really bro really?
While his post was needlessly dismissive I suppose there is truth to it. The setting runs on Rule of Cool, and Astartes are certainly not an exception.
Ashiraya wrote:Here is what I mean: A tactical marine takes perhaps 70 years to get ready for battle.
They only take ten or so years to be ready for battle. Which seems like a long time, but they are alwaus preparing more in the pipeline, and they serve as scouts for the last several years of that ten.
You have to remember that the Chapter doesn't exist in a vacuum. There are always new recruits coming up in training to replace casualties. They don't just start fresh every time a Marine dies. Each Marine has two sets of progenoid glands, which means each Marine can create two Space Marines, and he only has to die for the second one to be made. So the Chapters have stores of geneseed on hand.
Yes, -now- I know they don't take 70 years. You are responding to a post that is two years old.
No. In the Witch Hunter codex, it is explicitly stated as providing the same level of protection.
Note that jakejackjake was speaking specifically about protection.
It is also a perfect example of why PA and imperial tech defies the laws of physics in general. Logic does not apply.
Despite being thinner and nothing indicating that the armour is of better quality or material, it still provides equivalent protection. Rationalise that, good sirs.
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Also that might help Ashiraya rationalize stuff: this mechanism that apparently turn space marine urine into new nutriments will surely take some room in the armor while providing next to no additional protection, same for the additional servos.
There are no real sources for this, though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/12 21:39:57
). All that weight concentrated on two feet cannot end well. Let alone them managing to leave a trench without destroying the barriers.
.
