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Force concentration, it really is the only reason. A Space Marine is the single-most powerful concentration of toughness and firepower in one trooper. Granted, the firepower can be "copied" by any IG special weapons trooper, but he just won't stay alive as long, not to mention the close combat capabilities.

Don't let standard 40k tabletop fool you - whilst the rules are imho quite accurate to GW fluff, the battles with their equal point values on both sides aren't. The Marines' high mobility allows them to deploy just about anywhere and pick their battles, so that they can often utilise this advantage to the fullest by attacking weak points in an enemy's defense, or simply mass their forces for a focused blow to punch open a hole for their allies to follow through. Rarely would they actually commit to a "fair fight", only when there is no other way or when the area is a key tactical position that needs to be taken no matter what.
I have been told this is somewhat better represented in 40k Epic, where troop movements and deployment play a larger role than in the standard TT skirmishes.

Also, I'm really not sure about those 70 years ... Again going by GW fluff, Marine aspirants are recruited at age 10-14, with the implantation process being completed 4-6 years later, after which they become Scouts. I have no idea how long a newly minted Scout stays one, but I'm fairly sure it's not 60 years, except perhaps in some really obscure Chapter that does not see battle all that often. I always assumed that Scouts are Scouts for, like, 5-20 years or so, depending on the Chapter and the individual's conduct, i.e. when the Sergeant thinks "you're ready".
Let's not forget that, in spite of the rampant rumours about Marine longevity, GW fluff says that they usually live "only" 2-3 times longer than a normal man, and 60 years as a Scout sounds like a waste to me.

Lastly, also note that today's Imperium is not what the Emperor imagined. Space Marines were created as shock troops to pave a way for humanity through the stars. Back when they were created, there was no galaxy-spanning Imperial Guard but lots more Marines. As the Great Crusade went on, the Imperial Army - recruited from the normal human inhabitants of liberated lost colonies - slowly grew larger and larger, and their role in supporting the Astartes more and more important.
"Today" in the 41st millennium, their importance is switched. It is the Imperial Guard that holds the Imperium together, and the few remaining Space Marines who play a supporting role by being a strategic asset. In essence, their continued existence is a matter of tradition for the Imperium. In a way, they are not needed anymore, they are "just" still very nice to have, and have a place in the Imperial military due to history and past accomplishments.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Stormtroopers are seemingly not far behind Space Marines and takes a LOT less resources.

Ironically, there are less IG Storm Troopers than Space Marines - at least if you go by Codex fluff.
Speaks volumes about their requirements. Just about any young male with a fitting genetic makeup can be made into Astartes (which also explains how most Chapters can get along recruiting from just a single planet), but few graduates of the galaxy-wide Schola program are tough enough to become Storm Troopers.
Granted, there's also Cadian Kasrkin recruited just from the few worlds in the Cadian system and supposedly just as good as Munitorum STs. Then again, they have a 100% recruitment rate.

Harriticus wrote:1.) Marines are a lot more capable in fluff then they are on the table.

Everyone is supposedly more capable in fluff than they are on the table. It all depends on what hyped-up story you read.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:It's explicitly stated in the rulebook that with the Astartes the Imperium would have fallen long ago. They are still needed.

Oh yes, back during the Great Crusade. It would've likely been impossible for the Emperor to expand his domain with just the people of Earth alone. Nowadays there's the Imperial Guard, though.

Half the time we read about them in M41, however, Marines are the very source of trouble for the Imperium. I'm sorry, but outside the usual bolter porn stories I just don't see it the way you do. They're simply too few, like IG Storm Troopers or the SoB. It's a "win the battle, not the war" kind of deal.
Someone likened the Space Marines to a force multiplier, which I think describes their role best. They open up opportunities for the massed armies of the Imperial Guard to exploit. Other times, they hold a critical location long enough until the actual military can reinforce the lines. Yet other times, they could take out an enemy leader. All of this can be solved also by just throwing more and more men at the problem, which the Imperial Guard does often enough in every battle where Marines are not present. Or they bomb the issue into tiny bits with massed artillery strikes or orbital lances. On a planetary scale, the Marines can achieve precious little. Their firepower is highly mobile, but also highly concentrated. In a locally limited engagement this works great, but compared to most Guard regiments or a Navy fleet, a Marine Chapter's firepower is just ... rather small. Which is why they value mobility so much in the first place.

Harriticus wrote:Can be, but aren't. Only the best are chosen (except possibly in a Chapter on the verge of collapse).

Sure. The best from that small segment of Imperial population they are allowed to recruit from.
And even then it's not actually the best, but the best of those that are (a) of the correct gender, (b) the correct age, (c) genetically compatible and (d) don't have a brain that is already too advanced to "block out" hypnotherapy (usually coincides with b though).

That said, Marine aspirant selection also seems hugely biased depending on a Chapter's individual culture/tradition. Some take the strongest child from a tribe of feral barbarians, and others take the most aggressive kid from a street gang. They're aggressive, they're young and malleable, and they should have good reflexes - good material, right? Then there's other Chapters like the Salamanders who recruit people that are good blacksmiths. Like that's going to help in a fight.

This is 40k. The Imperium isn't about "efficiency" - this includes the Space Marines.

Melissia wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:Atleast Astartes are more important then Sisters of Battle

Debatable. Sisters could arguably fulfill many of the roles that Astartes fulfill for a lower cost.

Have to admit, I'm with thenoobbomb on this one - though that is a result of my understanding of their numbers being even smaller than those of the Astartes. Possibly what you were referring to with "debatable" ...

One big advantage of the SoB is probably that they actually do what they're told, though, unlike certain Marine Chapters who just leave an ongoing campaign because they have "something better to do" (Dark Angels), do not show up in the first place (Space Wolves), or kill and eat their own allies in a geneseed-malfunction-induced berserker rage (Fleshtearers).

BlaxicanX wrote:As could Guardsmen. But, like Guardsmen, the amount of Sisters it would take to perform as well as one Space Marine would project the experiment into no longer being cost-efficient. A single Marine can, and has, (ADB's Black rage short story, for one example) slaughtered entire squads of Sisters by themselves. They operate on two different levels of efficiency.

Because Black Library novels are a premier source for an accurate depiction of balance between forces, amirite?

I'm sorry, all I see in GW's fluff is entire Marine Chapters having been purged by the Sororitas, yet I know of no Sororitas Order having been purged by the Space Marines.
In the end, bolters are bolters, plasma guns are plasma guns - at least as far as GW tells us. Power armour won't save you against either. So it most often comes down to a question of reconnaisance/intelligence and positioning/preparation. Space Marines are undoubtedly much more resilient than the average human, yet to suggest that they would not fall victim to the same kind of guns with which SM and CSM fight each other makes me think that engagements between the two forces must be a real drag, what with so many rounds of ammunition spent and nobody dying.

For what it's worth, even a single Guardsman could - in theory - slaughter an entire squad of Space Marines if he catches the unit off-guard with a heavy bolter. It seems the importance of circumstance often gets lost in silly "army X is better than army Y!" debates.

I'm sorry. I do not want to get tangled up in a "Marines vs Sisters rawr rawr" discussion, so I will once again stress that I am not challenging their superiority. In a direct one-on-one duel, they're the better fighters by virtue of having tougher, genetically enhanced bodies. Take that and be happy! What I *don't* want to see, however, and what truly prompts me to responses such as this is when this "better fighters" gets turned into "they're so badass they are sooo much better than everyone else, they can capture entire planets with just a single squad of soldiers, and can kill entire armies solo". And that's how your argument came along now.
No, personally, I will continue to operate on what I have read in the Codex, which is that both Marines and Sisters have developed a grudging respect for each others' battle prowess. And you don't get that by "operating on two different levels of efficiency".

"As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion."
- GW website

It's ironical that, apparently, Marines and Sisters in the fluff seem to get along better with each other than their fans on the internets.

ENOZONE wrote:As Melissa alluded to in a second hand way, each part of the IoM is integral to its survival. The SM's fulfill a tactical role that others cannot, but cannot fill every role themselves. Which is why - apart from just the insane zealotry that comes with any of the military orders that makes them endemically entrenched into the Imperium; looking at you SoB's - humanity really needs all of them. Standard fair if you think about it.

Well ... I would say humanity needs everyone in the same way as it needs every adolescent kid capable of holding a lasgun. It is beset by enemies on all sides, so every single soldier counts. As far as the individual tactics and capabilities are concerned, however, I don't think there is any issue a Marine Chapter (or an Order of Sororitas) is committed to that cannot also be solved by throwing waves and waves of Guard at it. It'll just take longer and waste more lives (or fewer, if the SoB are followed by badly trained Frateris Militia ), but blood is the one resource the Imperium seems most willing to spend.

Melissia wrote:Meh, GW could easily retcon the numbers of Sisters. In fact they've done this several times already, and that's just studio material.

Hmm, actually I do not think the numbers have changed, ever. Since 3E there is a stronger focus on the Minor Orders (which I theorise to be more numerous in total headcount than the six Major Orders), but they already existed on the first organisational chart, and the number of Sisters within the Major Orders has remained unchanged ever since they were first mentioned in the 2E 'dex. Newer sources seem to be more vague about it, i.e. saying "thousands" instead of the 3.000-7.000 of the first Codex, but as that is still "thousands" I do not really count this as a retcon. The design notes for the Witch Hunter Codex even reiterated that the writers took great care to keep consistency with all the Ecclesiarchy/SoB fluff that was released before, even going back to the Rogue Trader era.

Well, there was that one time with the weird typo on the 5E rulebook where we first thought that the number of Major Orders was reduced. Actually had me thinking they'd merge the Orders with the most casualties (Guard-style) for a while until they released newer material that had the "correct" number again. But ... yeah, given that this was a one-time thing long reverted, personally I count it as an unintentional mistake rather than a retcon.

I can only hope that a future "proper" Codex - whenever we're going to see that one - keeps the relative consistency from the Sisters' previous fluff rather than unnecessarily re-imagining things. SoB fluff, at least the one from GW, seems to be one of the most stable things of the entire franchise, and I do not want to see that change. I've grown to like them because of all the things I have read so far, after all...

BlaxicanX wrote:So what you're saying is, you entirely agree with my assertion that Space Marines are vastly superior to Sisters on every level, to the point where trying to replace Space Marines with Battle Sisters would be pointless. You disagree with the assertion that Space Marines are invincible and can conquer entire planets with ease, two assertions that I never made. Okay.

No. See, you're just crossing a fine line here.
Space Marines cannot be "vastly" superior to Sisters "on every level" when they both use comparable armour and weaponry, for example. The Space Marines have tougher bodies - that's it. No doubt that is a big advantage, one which I am willing to concede and have already mentioned. But you're acting like this is some sort of "I Win button" now. I could just as well point out that the Sisters have greater willpower and dedication and are overall much more reliable as a military force. But that doesn't make Sisters "vastly superior on every level" either. As I've been saying: circumstances. And there's a huge difference between having an advantage and being an exaggerated piece of fanwankery, if you excuse the language.

Of course it all comes down to the sources we have aligned our perception of the setting to. I realize that our different interpretations very likely stem from reading different books, so in a way we're both correct, and no doubt there are many novel interpretations where Space Marines are as you say. The majority even, I would say!

Anyways, the one thing I am agreeing on with you is that it is indeed pointless to try and replace Space Marines with Battle Sisters. Simply because it's apparently "easier" to make a Space Marine than to make a Battle Sister. One has artificial genetic enhancement pushing semi-randomly selected child soldiers past their natural limitations, the other has a grueling training regime where only those with a certain degree of predetermined natural toughness and willpower may qualify for final selection. In other words, anyone with compatible DNA can become a Marine, but by far not every girl is tough enough to make it into the Sororitas.

If we'd be talking efficiency, the Marines should simply step up their recruitment program a la Huron or Black Templars and transform even more feralworlders and street kids into new Astartes. Just pick anyone that has a chance of surviving the implantation process - I'm sure the Mechanicus could cope with the added strain on bolter and armour requests, given the potential effect of such a vast force of Space Marines. The only reason it isn't done seems to be politics, plain and simple. The High Lords are still afraid of a second HH. And so the Imperium will keep gimping itself. Welcome to 40k.

BlaxicanX wrote:You can argue that the overwhelming amount of fluff that shows Marines being Sisters+5 is tainted by Marine bias, and you'd be correct. However, you can't simply render fluff invalid because you don''t like the inspiration behind it. lol
I mean, you can. This is 40K, after all. But for the sake of having a conversation, if we just ignore fluff that doesn't fit into our views, than there is no point in having a conversation.

That's the problem, isn't it? Much of the "overall fluff" of 40k is inherently incombatible. It's not meant to exist side by side, and in the past I have quoted GW designers as well as novel authors all agreeing on this. Compare both Sisters and Marines how they and their equipment are depicted in GW's books to how they are described in, for example, FFG's Dark Heresy and Deathwatch RPGs. Worlds apart! So unsurprisingly, someone who likes the latter more will have a whole different view on the topic than I have with my continued focus on GW's own material. Same goes for the Black Library novels - actually, there you have an even greater gap as they are written by even more people with less collaboration.

So yes, we all render fluff invalid. You do, too, even if you may not have realised it already. But that is the source of our difference in opinion.

As for the semantics issue, see Shlazaor. I will only point out that if the Space Marines' guns can kill CSMs, then so can the Sisters' guns kill Space Marines. And the Marines guns' can kill Sisters. Weapon equality does much to level the playing field, hence me pointing out the circumstances. Genetic superiority doesn't help much if your head is gone from the detonation of a mass-reactive explosive shell or a shot of superheated plasma. Marines will always have an advantage, but I contest the idea that it is as big as you make it out to be. It may well be "Sisters+5" under some circumstances. Other times it may be Sisters+2. And yet other times it may be 1:1 or even skewed to the Sisters' favor, all depending on factors such as terrain, awareness, troop composition, individual experience, and more. Even a single Guardsman with a plasma gun can kill or neutralize a Space Marine with one shot, so hey.

And no, there is not "only a single instance in aaaaall of 40k fluff". Off the top of my head I can name the entry in the 1E Rogue Trader rulebook, a remark in the 3E Codex design notes printed in White Dwarf, a more detailed description of how hunting down rogue Marine Chapters is done in Index Astartes IV, Andy Hoare's Strikeforce article in Citadel Journal (the one with SoB drop pod rules), and one mentioning in another more recent White Dwarf 2-3 months back. I can look up and quote them if you need proof. And that's just Games Workshop's own material!
This may sound arrogant now, but I think you just don't know the Sisters fluff as good as I do.

jonolikespie wrote:
Sorry but no, that just shows you know nothing about how marines recruit. Marines take the very best of a planet (and then more often than not deathworlds, feral planets or other placed where people struggle to survive) put them through grueling training that leave only a small percentage left to receive the geneseed.

I recommend you consult GW's Index Astartes books/articles for a detailed explanation on how Marine recruitment and creation works.

In my opinion, the idea that "the very best of a planet" can be determined at age 10-14 is a bit silly. Given how the human body is still developing, how will you know that one 10 year old kid may not make a better warrior than another later down the road, just because one seems stronger at this young age? And some Chapters recruit them even younger. The Salamanders take kids as young as 6 years old, and as I mentioned before they let one's aptitude at blacksmithing decide who may become a Marine.

No. The simple truth (at least as per GW's material) is that "very best of a planet" (which not even all Chapters do) is an optional tradition that seems completely irrelevant to the end result. Successfully being turned into a Space Marine makes everyone a superior human being, regardless of what he was before. A sickly nerd would, if given the Astartes treatment, make a stronger warrior than the most elite soldier we ever had in the real world, simply because hypno-indoctrination, muscle-therapy and implantation artificially turn him into a beast of a man. Given the massive gap between a normal human being and a Space Marine, do you really believe there would be a noticeable difference between the two if both this very same nerd and that soldier are being made Space marines?

The only things that -truly- matter are gender, age, brain susceptibility and genetic compatibility. Gender and age are not an issue anywhere, brain susceptibility is a combination of age and many Chapters' preference for feral worlders and street gangers. Genetic compatibility between host and implants is the single-most definite limitation on who can become a Space Marine, and it has squat to do with the recruit being the "very best of a planet" or not. It's how the Salamanders manage to get along at all, and they seem to do as good as the other Chapters with their choice of blacksmith-apprentice-recruits.

In fact, in many cases "the very best of a planet" probably cannot possibly be recruited simply because his DNA isn't compatible. Tough luck making a Marine out of that one.

thenoobbomb wrote:Plus, space marines will have far more experience then any guardsman or sister of battle.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. A fully-fledged Sister of Battle has received professional military education from infancy, whereas Space Marines most often seem to grow up being hunters dwelling in caves or juve gangers smuggling drugs past local Enforcers. To be sure, the hypno-indoctrination they receive as part of the conversion process would feed an understanding of modern combat directly into their brains, but does this count as experience? Maybe, though I would assume "the real thing" such as their Scout years and the many hours of training in and around the Fortress-Monastery each day are more important. Thanks to rejuvenation treatments, veteran Battle Sisters may also become as old as most Space Marines, provided they do not fall in battle. Of course, the average rank-and-file Sisters would probably have an experience of "only" 12 years of Schola indoctrination, 5 years as a Novice and then 1-20 years of field experience. Then again, would the average rank-and-file Tactical Marine really have that many decades more? They've all been young once, and an Order's average member age may be as fluctuating as that of a Chapter, all depending on how active it is in combat and thus how many losses would need to be replaced by fresh recruits. The more an Order or a Chapter goes to war, the higher the potential for casualties and thus the lower the average age. On the other hand, only real combat may grant real experience ...

Seb wrote:I think the morale issue was not brought up. These guys will not give ground, ever.

If it's a "clean" Chapter that actually follows orders and does not suffer from some mentally-affecting geneseed corruption, yes.

The true value of a Space Marine to the Imperium probably depends on the individual Chapter. That's why I actually like the Ultramarines - on them you can rely.

Also, what madtankbloke wrote.

Shlazaor wrote:They do things normal people cannot and they get it done quickly at the drop of a hat. They aren't meant to protect the galaxy. They are meant to win specific decisive battles that could threaten the galaxy.

I think that is a good point - reaction time/mobility is one of the Marines' biggest advantages. Anything you can do with a Marine Chapter can be done with the Guard ... but it would take much, much longer. Both to get the forces in place as well as to actually fight the campaign. For a single battle, that may not seem like much, but over the course of Imperial history, I would agree that this may have made a notable difference. Perhaps not everywhere and everytime, but some campaigns could have been turned around because one planet could have been won quicker than the enemy was able to mobilise all his forces. On another world, the Imperials were able to hold the line thanks to Astartes backup, causing an entire enemy force to get a bloody nose in a futile attempt to storm the walls, thus preventing a costly campaign to recapture that place that may have cost dozens of regiments that are needed elsewhere.

On a small scale, that's not much. But if you add it up ... over the millennia of conquered or defended territory, planets become systems, systems become sub-sectors, sub-sectors become sectors, both due to the Marines themselves as well as the many forces the Imperium was thus able to deploy on another front?

Vaktathi wrote:All in all, Astartes are made to win battles that Humans cannot win and that s why they are important to the Imperium.

And yet...most of the wars never see a Space Marine and are won all the same...
That's why there's Stormtroopers and Kasrkin and Grenadiers and Sisters of Battle, etc.

Void__Dragon wrote:Straken is among the most bionically enhanced individuals in the Imperium, so extensively enhanced that his body is as durable as power armour, and his fist is a friggin' chainfist.
He is a very poor example to use to prove your point.

Actually, I think you missed my point by a long shot. I specifically pointed out that the most extreme examples can be found anywhere - this includes a CSM Lord being strangled (Straken's augmented strength surely would not have affected his magnificently superior reflexes and agility?) just as much as it includes Straken as an extremely badass IG soldier outside the norm. I thought I made that clear with the last sentence of that segment.

Void__Dragon wrote:Then she, you know, died.

That is (a) besides the point (his death doesn't make Captain Tycho's last fight any less awesome either) and (b) actually is a fairly recent addition to the fluff. For whatever reason Ward decided to add it in the new WD Minidex, because apparently he thought this was better than the previous version where Praxedes remains on the planet and misses the evacuation, sparking a legend amongst the faithful that she's still kicking ass even as the world is completely engulfed by 'nids.

Void__Dragon wrote:Marines however have more and more consistent portrayals of epic heroic deeds of awesomeness.

I do not find that particularly surprising, considering that 2/3 of all sentences written in all fluff focus on making Astartes awesome. This does not change the portrayal outside those individual deeds, however. And personally I find the descriptions of standards far more interesting than hundreds of distorted myths and stories.

Arcsquad12 wrote:the bolt got lodged in his helmet rather than exploding.

You mean rather than penetrating? I would assume it has to explode either way, by virtue of having a mass-reactive millisecond fuse.

It'd just be a lot better if it explodes outside the helmet rather than inside.

[edit] Actually, scratch that, I was wrong about this! I just checked the Wargear book and apparently the projectile detonates only if it actually pierces the armour, with the fuse activating based on an increase of surrounding mass.
That said, I suppose it could still happen even if the bolt "only" gets stuck, as long as it does punch into something rather than ricocheting off?

[edit 2] Also, the quotes requested by BlaxicanX:

"Every single day, squads of Battle Sisters descend upon unsuspecting departments of the Adeptus Terra, administering genetic and psychological tests in order to expose wrongdoers, mutants and malcontents. Whole companies of Battle Sisters travel out to war zones, to the fortress-monasteries of the Adeptus Astartes, to the fleets and to the scattered worlds of the Imperium. No-one is free from their vigilance."
- 1E Rogue Trader Rulebook (1987), reprinted in White Dwarf #292 (2004)

"In such cases a Conclave of Inquisitors will decide upon a course of action, and should an armed response be required this will often be entrusted to the Adepta Sororitas. Few Space Marine Chapters would be asked to move against another except in the direst of circumstances. Facing an entire Chapter of Space Marines is not a conflict many Imperial leaders would embark upon with confidence, but where there is no alternative the Ordo may order a mission sent against the command structures of the renegade Chapter in order to disable the entire organisation from the top down. The only force outside of the Adeptus Astartes themselves with any hope of successfully assaulting a renegade Chapter Master and his attendant brethren may be an elite strike force of the Adepta Sororitas, led by a battle-hardened Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus."
- Citadel Journal #49 (2002)

"Thus the Sisters find themselves in service of the Inquisition, performing purity sweeps through Imperial organisations, persecuting apostate clerics, challenging renegade Space Marine Chapters, guarding the most dangerous of the Ordo's prisoners and acting as wardens on the infamous Black Ships."
- 3E Codex: Witch Hunters (2003)

"This gave us a basis for the character of the army - vengeful warrior-adepts tasked with enforcing the purity of other Imperial organisations. The Rogue Trader art even shows a Battle Sister exacting that vengeance upon a Space Marine, so this seemed particularly appropriate. In fact, the Space Marine is from the Rainbow Warriors Chapter, and as we haven't heard from them for some time I guess the Sisters' mission was successful!"
- White Dwarf #292 (2004), from Andy Hoare's Designer's Notes

"Should doctrinal heresy prove the immediate cause, then the elite of the Adepta Sororitas may be the only force considered capable of prosecuting a War of Faith against a wayward Chapter."
- Index Astartes IV: Rogue Sons (2004)

"Heretics take many forms. Most are lost humans, whose weak minds have been corrupted by the manifold temptations of a dark and sinister galaxy. None are immune: planetary governors, Imperial Guard commanders and even whole Space Marine Chapters have been declared heretic and been exterminated as such by the Sisters of Battle."
- White Dwarf #382 (October 2011)

I suppose that should do it. Mind you, this is just the stuff that I managed to pick up over the years of my never-ending quest for more obscure SoB fluff in GW's material. I still find new bits every now and then, so I don't claim completeness on this topic.

Oh, but I also promised you something about power armour:
"Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium."
- Codex: Angels of Death

Mind you, "most small arms" sounds more like lasguns than bolters, but I would expect both of them to fall into this category. Naturally, with bolters closer to the 50% protection range, and lasguns more towards the 85% scale. Should be pretty close to the TT rules, actually? Not that this is very surprising, considering that the fluff was crafted around the rules and does not exist like some sort of separate product as if it'd depict an entirely different world with no connection to the tabletop whatsoever.

Omg, this thread devolved quickly in a single day. [Citation needed] everywhere.

I'll just try to focus on the discussion I had going and ignore most of the hysteric rants from both sides. How on Holy Terra did Living Saints even get dragged into this? I thought we were comparing troops, for Gork's sake!

Couple things I will add a remark to, though:

Tadashi wrote:Enough for them to be used as a catalyst for blood magic.

Their fault for being more pure and less corruptible than the Grey Knights, I guess.

Augustine_Maven wrote:Based on the sum of all the posts that have been made on this thread it is clear to me that it is due to the combination of all the various agencies of the Imperium; Grey Knights, Sisters, Imeprial Guard, Astartes, etc... that maintain the Imperium, that is without question. One single entity within the Imperium could not guarantee its collective safety, so no more who is better or who has more influence or anymore nonsense.

Truth be told, all those agencies cannot guarantee the IoM's safety even when you count them together, so the question if a single one of them is capable to do so should not even be raised. However, I think it should honestly be obvious that the Imperial Guard would be the most likely candidate by virtue of its quantity and distribution, regardless of its many drawbacks (where other military forces may be better suited).

Tadashi wrote:Nature of said miracles the Ordo Malleus would probably love to investigate...and which the Astartes, Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy, and everyone else do fine without.

Do you really, really believe they never did this when it is so very obvious an exceptional thing?

As the Codex fluff says, such feats are only "miraculous for the unschooled", which an Inquisitor of the Ordo Malleus likely is not.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:gimme the daughters of the Emporer in that case everytime, cause at least you only have to worry bout just the enemy killing you

On the battlefield you're probably right.

Just hope you're not camping near them when they have nothing else to fight and get bored.

Tadashi wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:I can think of many examples where the Astartes and the Guard have undertaken 'zealous' frontal attacks and banzai charges - with varing degrees of success depending on the oppostion.

Only when the Codex Astartes and Tactica Imperialis dictate it as appropriate - the Sisters do it as a matter of course. Where WWII-era Japanese soldiers had nationalism, these girls have zeal, and they put the IJA to shame.

^ implying that all Space Marine Chapters adhere to the Codex Astartes.

Tadashi wrote:Good luck if the Grey Knights arrive - Sisters or not, the Ordo Malleus will kill everything non-Astartes to maintain secrecy.

Wrong. Guardsman are killed - and even then not always. More precious troops get mindscrubbed or be left alone completely, all depending on how much the Inquisition trusts them. And the Sisters of Battle are still the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus.

BlaxicanX wrote:The fluff is consistent because the majority of the fluff checks out with itself. In the majority of fluff that show Space Marines fighting Sisters, we're shown Space Marines decimating Sororitas. Thus, the fluff is consistent with itself.

con·sis·ten·cy noun, \kən-ˈsis-tən(t)-sē\
plural con·sis·ten·cies

Definition of CONSISTENCY
1 archaic: condition of adhering together, firmness of material substance, firmness of constitution or character, persistency
2 degree of firmness, density, viscosity, or resistance to movement or separation of constituent particles
3 agreement or harmony of parts or features to one another or a whole, correspondence, specifically: ability to be asserted together without contradiction, harmony of conduct or practice with profession

Contradictions destroy consistency. End sentence. You could say the fluff is "somewhat consistent" or "fairly consistent", but even then that would be pretty far fetched when it is obvious that the contradictions exist because the various writers were not interested in a uniform portrayal. At the end of the day, GW has their own vision for the Sisters of Battle, and a whole lot of writers elsewhere have another.
You go ahead sticking to your precious novels and the silly things they sometimes claim (enjoy your Multilaser-Marines), and I stick to what the creators of the setting write in the studio books. Deal?

BlaxicanX wrote:With the proper circumstances, a Guardsmen can kill Kaldor Driego in close-quarters combat. "Circumstances" have too many variables to be of any use in an objective discussion. And as well, this just proves my point. If Sororitas need specific circumstances in their favor to beat Space Marines, how does that imply that they're on a Space Marine's level?

You do realize that circumstances always play a role, yes? One could just as well say that a Space Marine also needs "specific circumstances" to kill a Sister. Or a Guardsman. For example, he needs to spot them first and have a suitable weapon, with ammunition if ranged.
No, the true question is whether they are "close enough" to each other to both have a good chance. And as they both wear armour of the same protective value, and they both carry guns of the same destructive capability. I'd say the playing field is fairly equal. And GW seems inclined to agree - but more on that below.

BlaxicanX wrote:As well, in every SM vs. CSM fight in the Night Lords trilogy, as well as in Brothers of the Snake, there's numerous descriptions of bolt rounds basically denting /shattering armor, but not piercing it.

So what? You are still clinging to individual events rather than general descriptions here, which is very risky as I have pointed out before.
Think about what you are implying. By what you suggest here, SM and CSM should simply throw away their boltguns when fighting each other, because they are apparently useless? Nope, I guess we'll have to disagree on that, and once again I point towards the technical description of Space Marine power armour in the Angels of Death Codex. A description not sullied by potentially being an exception from the rule.

BlaxicanX wrote:Tell that to the squad of girls who got mangled by a single Flesh Tearer who'd succumbed to the Black Rage in ADB's short story.

Are you not aware that I stick only to GW's own material?
If I'd adopt everything I read in some random novel into my perception of the 'verse, I would have to deal with backflipping Terminators, cowardly Commissars, and a Storm Trooper that kills an entire Order of SoB (which somehow got infiltrated by 'stealers *blinks*) on his own.

Not saying that the Flesh Tearer bit is impossible, mind you... Circumstances. I'm just rather biased against novels since I have become used to massive contradictions to Codex fluff.
Though, if you really want to delve into novels, read Ben Counter's Daemonblood to see how Sister Aescarion whips around Sergeant Castus with her power axe.

BlaxicanX wrote:Wow, something Space Marines do every day!

In your Black Library books maybe.

BlaxicanX wrote:Unfortunately, it doesn't tell me anything I don't already know. I'm well aware of the fact that Sororitas are used to cull renegade chapters, in fact I stated as much earlier in the discussion. However, what I was asking for was fluff that would imply that Sisters can stand toe to toe with Marines on equal footing. These quotes don't do that.

You were claiming that there was only a single reference for Sisters hunting down Marine Chapters, which I have adressed here.

As for the equal footing, I have already mentioned that Space Marines have an artificial advantage. As I said, I am disputing the width of the gap you apparently see between these forces.
But if I'd really wanted to push the issue - you know, I have already quoted the GW website a few pages back, but here it is again:
"As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion."

I bolded the important part for you this time. Feel free to look up a GW quote that specifically counters this.

Eetion wrote:I thought the grey knights have killed sisters in a dubious piece of fluff wherre there dancing in blood or something.

It's not really dubious - that was in the 5E Grey Knights Codex.
And it was not at all done to preserve secrecy, but because the Grey Knights simply required the pure blood of the Sororitas, most of whom remained uncorrupted by the daemonic Bloodtide, to ward themselves against it. Apparently the GKs own incorruptability is, at least now, not something that comes natural but which is artificially induced via rituals and paraphernalia. Though the Bloodtide's strength may have been an exception.

Tadashi wrote:Not really - the Sisters were being affected by the Bloodtide too. The Grey Knights' blood magic probably transformed the Sisters' blood into some sort of ablative coating or something along those lines.

Not all Sisters. Some of them got tainted and then killed by daemons. The rest, those who stayed pure, were then sacrificed by the GKs (specifically because they remained pure). "Ablative coating" seems to be an adequate description, though. They painted their armour and weapons with it, if I recall correctly. I imagine it would work somewhat similar to hexagrammic wards or whatever, at least in effect. GKs probably have a catalogue of stuff protecting them from the taint of Chaos, and the Blood of Innocents (or something along those lines) is one option out of many, giving them relative incorruptability.

Tadashi wrote:Who's to say the Ordo Malleus didn't try, only to be told to feth off by the Ordo Hereticus?

Common sense.

I mean, okay - perhaps it is not impossible that this occurred. I actually *do* imagine the Convocation of Nephilim granting some sort of protection / political clout, I just wouldn't say it extends this far. The Ordo Malleus gets to check Living Saints too, after all. Plus, the Convocation of Nephilim or indeed any sort of tie to the Ordo Hereticus is not as old as the Sororitas themselves. If the Ordo Malleus really would have "jumped at the chance" to investigate what GW's game rules have already clarified to not be any sort of psychic powers or Warp magiks, then they would have probably done so in the aftermath of Vandire's fall. It would not have raised much protest to imprison his former bodyguards to test their purity. Thor may have raised his voice as he wanted their troops and ships for the Ecclesiarchy's protection, yet how could he refuse something along the lines of "you'll get them back if they are clean"? Surely, there must have been lots of suspicion towards the Imperial Cult back then, and the Ecclesiarchy did indeed experience a purge of its ranks.

But I suppose it's not a topic there is much to argue about, as it's all just speculation.

Tadashi wrote:No, anyone who came into contact with the Bloodtide got tainted by Khorne's bloodlust. Not sure - I'll check the codex.

That is half-correct. The Codex mentions "corrupts anything it touches" - but then goes on to give that Sororitas convent as an exception in the midst of a sea of taint. Or something like that ...

Yeah, if you have the book nearby, please look it up - I'd have to dig through the web to find the exact quote.

(but really, why else would the GKs have needed their blood, if not for its purity?)

Tadashi wrote:Because blood magic needs blood? And Astartes blood is more precious than Human blood?

"Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons."
Sounds fairly specific to me. And if "any" human blood would have done it, they'd have simply snatched a couple civvies from the streets, like the corrupted priests did it for their own blood rituals.

SoB are more resistant to corruption, that has been part of their fluff (in GW's version of the setting at least) ever since their very first rules in White Dwarf, even before the 2E Codex. And if you want yet another example, check out Anastasia's story.

BlaxicanX wrote:Again, I point out, if you want to cherry-pick fluff and only deem that which suits your personal view as valid, fine. But your argument, on an objective level, holds no merit.

Ahh, so it is you who determines objectivity, then? I see. I'm sure everyone in this thread will agree that you are in no way biased towards one faction or the other.

Again, *I* point out that we all "cherry-pick fluff" simply because there exists no uniform canon. Do you really want me to quote the people who actually work on this franchise again? It is not you who decides for everyone else how the setting looks like. Deal with it.
Even -if- it would work as you say - which it does not - I find the claim that you are aware of any and all details in any and all sources of fluff ever published rather hard to believe. You like Space Marines (or so I assume), so you read Marine novels. And Marines are written epic in there. Who woulda thought. I'm going out on a limb here and assume that you have not, however, read stories like Daemonblood, Daemonifuge, Faith & Fire, Hammer & Anvil, Red & Black? Just a thought, y'know. It's hardly a surprise that your image of Space Marines is somewhat focused on their epic legends when that is 90% of all you've read.

BlaxicanX wrote:The difference between you and I is that I draw my conclusions from all fluff. If there's 12 instances of a Space Marine lifting 500 pounds, and there's one instance of a Space Marine only being able to lift 100 pounds, I'm not going to assume that the latter instance is more valid just because it's studio fluff or BL fluff. Fluff is fluff, and that lends objectivity to my argument, something yours is lacking.

If "all fluff" was intended to coexist and tie into each other, you would have a point.
With how the franchise is actually handled, however, you do not. You continue to claim that there is such a thing as "all fluff", but you need to realise that whatever you pull out of it is your opinion only. Unlike me, you do not even have various authors' and game designers' quotes on the subject, do you?

BlaxicanX wrote:I claimed that the only fluff that implies that SIsters of Battle can stand toe to toe with Marines is the notion that they are used to cull chapters, and I claimed that that notion is irrelevent because the details surrounding how they cull chapters is left ambiguous. I never challenged the notion that they cull renegade chapters.

You know what, I just checked and you're right - for some reason I skipped the middle part of your sentence there. My bad.

BlaxicanX wrote:Don't need too. I have no doubt Sisters are more pious and religious than Marines. Doesn't change the fact that they're far inferior soldiers. Considering the topic of this discussion is "Can Sisters do what the Marines do as efficiently?", their purity and faith means nothing.

Well, apparently GW does not agree with you, be it with fluff sentences like these or the Sisters' Acts of Faith in the tabletop or the Inquisitor RPG. The sentence says "fierce warriors that are equals" to Space Marines, and it presents their faith and devotion as a balance factor set against genetic enhancement. Obviously, this is referring to their willpower and dedication, which can at times have them perform beyond what the average human should be capable of, such as ignoring pain or summoning astounding reserves of strength. We have examples for this in the real world, the Sisters of Battle are just an entire army making use of this "mind over matter" idea. And it seems as if it is this that elevates them just high enough.
Of course you can simply ignore that line about the "being equals".* As I said, we are all cherry-picking, and this is only a single line from GW which is surely conflicted by lots of Black Library novels from some freelance authors.

It seems there is really no point in discussing it further - you have your interpretation of the 41st millennium, born chiefly from various novels, and I have mine from GW's own books. I do believe you when you say that the Sisters of Battle suck much more in the books you read, but that is just one more explanation for why I don't give much on outsourced fiction. Aside from a lack of continuity between the various products, they seem heavily biased to whoever the protagonist is, even more than what I am used from the codices. Gaunt's Ghost appear to eat CSMs for breakfast, and that's an IG unit!

(*: Pssst, I actually find it somewhat far-fetched myself but it seems obvious that I think them capable of a lot more than you give them credit for. Guess I just like images like the trio of heroes from the Vinculus Crusade too much)

Void__Dragon wrote:Where is the Sisters = Marines statement actually from?

GW's old Witch Hunters website - y'know, the unified Ordo Hereticus + SoB description page, before they switched to SoB only.
Here is a backup from the internet archive.

Void__Dragon wrote:The only real issue is that there aren't enough Marines, but that issue could be easily solved fluffwise by making more, so is more of a break from reality in the setting. 40k has many.

Though in all fairness, 40k at least touches upon the possibility every now and again - suggesting that it's really just politics keeping Astartes numbers low. Perhaps the High Lords are just convinced the Guard is sufficient. They are so far beyond the ordinary citizen, I could certainly see them having little of the common man's respect for the Astartes.

Void__Dragon wrote:And a sweeping statement has less relevance than actual showings in the fluff, IMHO.

Descriptions dedicated to general application have less relevance than individual events and legends surrounding potentially exceptional individuals?

Okay, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Not from GW's material, no. The number of short stories or even event descriptions describing individual Sisters fighting individual Marines is ... wow, I think it's actually zero. I do recall battles, but there it was always described in army-size and not about individuals.

If you want something from the Black Library (whatever good that does), I did mention Sister Aescarion from Daemonblood. Though in fairness, the Ultramarines-Sergeant-turned-Daemon-Prince does take out the remains of her small Seraphim squad, he just cannot beat her.
I'm sure there are many, many more BL stories where Sisters lose horribly to Marines, Guardsmen and little children with rocks, though. Their most popular role in the licensed fiction is that of an antagonist to beat up - a little like those poor victimised CSMs in the Gaunt's Ghosts stories.

As for 'nids and Necrons, I don't recall such statements to be made for both in the same way - though that does not necessarily have to mean much; my 40k fluff knowledge is fairly limited in that it is focused on the IoM as represented by GW's books.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:Well I have take some free time and post this question of Facebook and these are the answers: [...]

I have no idea to whose Facebook page you posted this, but those answers are full of contradictions to GW's position on the subject. I admit, I stopped reading at the claim that Space Marines are supposedly immune to death by natural cause.

Who did you talk to there, some novel writer?

BlaxicanX wrote:Games Workshops canon policy is overwritten by the basic rules of logic and debating.

lol - okay. Rules you made up yourself, but I spent too much time on that already.

Let's just finish the debate with the understanding that neither of us is "wrong" (as per Gav Thorpe's explanation) in their own perception, because we both "live in different worlds" when it comes to 40k fluff.

BlaxicanX wrote:I've read all the Sisters of Battle novels and comics. Still not a single thing mentioned in any of those that would put a Sister on a Marine's level.

What's wrong with Aescarion?

Mr Morden wrote:They have their Faith which is also a big plus but not as much in straight combat.

Hmm, I would say their faith is important in straight battle, too. It solidifies their morale and, in addition to this, enables them to (at least at times) go beyond what a human being would normally be capable to do. The role of psychology in sports and warfare is still being investigated by science, but few people doubt that the mind has no effect whatsoever on body performance. Here's just one random article from the internets: http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/01/mind-over-matter.html

Mr Morden wrote:Now they are often used as punching bags in BL fiction, for some unknown reason.

I guess most often it is because a writer wants an elite Imperial force to get slaughtered (better equipped and trained than IG to make them and whoever kills them appear more dangerous), and using Space Marines may trigger an adverse reaction from the readers. SoB are not a popular army, so they're an ideal "punching bag".
Other writers may also simply not like the army on principle. Most if not all BL authors are also 40k fans themselves, which likely makes many of them Space Marine fans (considering that SM are the most popular army). From experience, I would say that many - not all! - Space Marine fans dislike Sisters of Battle because they may feel the Sororitas are "encroaching on their territory", be it with the badass level or their equipment, not to mention their occasional role as Marine hunters. Some may even just dislike them because they dislike the Ecclesiarchy. Once I even noticed blatant sexism (not on dakka, but on another forum).

BlaxicanX wrote:You're entitled to your opinion. The argument you've presented thus far has been pretty weak, though.

Well, same to you. Glad we cleared the air though.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:I posted this in four Facebook Warhammer 40k groups, and these are only the most interesting answers. Point is that majority don't see Astartes as waste of resources but true might of Imperial and Mankind Military force.

The most interesting answers - as per your own personal selection? Okay, that's not entirely fair. As Gav Thorpe once said, 40k "exists as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers", so all of those answers are probably entirely correct in whatever reality these players have focused on. I don't know, maybe (probably) there even is some novel that contradicts Games Workshop about how long Space Marines live before they die from natural causes, for example! As I said, we're all cherry-picking, even if we do not realise it.

Anyhow, are the Space Marines a waste of resources? Debatable. Someone else described them as a "force multiplier", and in that they certainly have value. Sometimes it's just more efficient to use small elite forces rather than huge armies. After all, would anybody think that the SEALs, the SAS, Spetsnaz are a waste of resources? Or in terms of 40k, does anyone think so of the Storm Trooper regiment? I doubt it.

At the same time, however, describing any of these forces as the "true might of the military" is just ridiculous fanwankery. Even when we discard the obvious gap between GW's vision and the various licensed products depicting a different version of Marines, there's a balance to be found between seeing something as worthless and the mind-boggling exaggeration of hero levels that is going on. That's what I'm advocating, and I am sorry to see that some fans of the various armies are apparently unable to see the bigger picture simply because they're stuck gazing at whatever they adore and read about all the time. This does not go solely for some (not all!) Marine fans but for Sisters fans as well. Not calling names. The latter are probably just less numerous because the army has fewer players in general, and because they have not been spoiled by constant attention in the form of novels, video games and even movies hyping the protagonist into the sky.

DarthMarko wrote:sorry @Lynata but let's be realistic and view the universe from a ugly consumer view....

I'm vieweing what Games Workshop presents me with.
I am not doubting that certain outsourced publications may present a very different image in the hopes of attracting more customers. After all, what does author X care if only Space Marine fans buy his book? That's the most populous segment of the fanbase! But why should I care about author X's books when he does not care about GW?
And at the end of the day, GW doesn't care about that either. They have their own playground - which caters to all the factions. Perhaps not equally in quantity, but in content compatibility. Ultimately, any universe, fictional or no, does not revolve solely around one specific group of people, and this includes Space Marines in 40k (even though for some fans that may be the case). The designers took great care to make sure that each faction has a role to play somewhere; a role beyond "supporting cast" in some Marine novel or computer game that, unlike the tabletop as a whole, focuses chiefly on how awesome and manly the Astartes are and how much better they are than anyone else, killing thousands of enemies on a single day, each, blindfolded and with one hand tied to their back.

I guess what I'm trying to say is ... would you rather have a setting that works because everything ties together as it does in real life? Or are you content with said setting just being a stage for your few heroes to dominate, like in some cliché-ridden superhero comic?

Void__Dragon wrote:Lynata, you have to realise that despite whatever inconsistencies are in the Black Library novels, said novels are of far superior quality when compared to GW fluff.

Because you, personally, like them more?

From how it looks to me, there is some sort of penis contest going on between some authors about who writes the most awesome Space Marines, starting with what Jes Goodwin joked about when he said that SM seem to "get bigger with every book". I just can't get behind that. To me, characters require not only strengths but flaws, and have to be vulnerable. I only ever perceive this in GW's own material. Some people like Astartes more when they're written like some sort of living god of war, striding across the battlefield and swatting enemies left and right. "More power to them", I say. To me, this sort of power fantasy just does not appear very compelling. It's Superman 10-cent-comic niveau, whereas I am simply looking for a grimdark setting with a somewhat more realistic touch to it.

What you have to realise is that the constant preaching of Space Marine fans about how this and that is superior and how their books are so much better written and how GW doesn't know gak about Astartes (lulz) just comes across as incredibly ignorant.

Have fun in your world, I'll stick to what I grew up with. Imho, we should all be able to get along just fine, as long as we do not attempt to force our personal preferences onto other people. Some just don't like Space Marines as much. And some are even pushed away from them by the behaviour of some of their fans.